Premiership Referees/Discipline

[Anasyn]

I just wanted to know what everyone's views happen to be here..

Myself I think the standard has dropped through "only human" to "absolutely fucking abysmal". How these people can call themselves professionals I don't know. Look at the penalty awaded against Wolverhampton on Saturday.. the guy slipped on the turf!
So far this season there have been more cards and penalties awarded than probably any other season in living memory. It's getting out of hand and I'm sure that players haven't been getting dirtier.
Maybe it's time to get some of the Division 1 refs up and do away with the assessors, who imo are spoiling the referees game by providing an unwanted, and unneccesary distraction. The division 1 refs werea lot better. Infact as a Birmingham City fan, the biggest comment last season was "these guys are even worse than the oneswe used to have before".
Every week now, more or less every manager complains about them, screwing up one big point after another. And the FA refuse to act.

Ok, that's my rant over, time for the rest of you.

 

[Tom]

Nothing has changed. The situation hasn't got worse. What you do have is a minimum of 6 cameras per premiership match recording every mistake the referee makes.

Rewind to the 70's when you had some really rough tackles going in, and the referee would just turn a blind eye. Want that back?

 

[mank!]

In every game I've seen this season, both at Swindon and on television the refereeing has been abysmal. It's not just dodgy penalties and the such, it's the needless bookings and so on.

What need is there to book a player for a late tackle in the opening minutes? None at all, a quiet word and warning would suffice and all it for the referees is dig themselves a hole, because they're either inconsistent from then on or show yellow cards for next to nothing throughout the game. There aren't enough referees who use common sense and instead they try to stamp down their authority by flashing ther cards early on in the match.

The other subject is diving. Now, be honest here - none of us would complain if we got a penalty if a player from the team we support might have dived. I agree with the fact that it is cheating and needs to be cut down on, but there are double standards at every club in the country, even at Sunday league level. It's a difficult situation, as it's very hard for the referee to decide on the spot whether it was a dive or not because much of the time you can hardly tell even with a slow motion replay. For this reason, as was discussed by the pundits on The Premiership last night I would like to see suspensions for diving that can only be dished out by an independent panel who review all of the incidents on a Monday morning and if a player is found guilty of diving (ala Pires) get a one or two match ban, perhaps increasing if the player is found to be doing it again. The problem there is that it is difficult to distuingush a lot of the time as the game is played at such a high tempo, and this could cause all sorts of problems if not implemented correctly. For this reason, I think it should be taken into very careful consideration. I do think ref's need to be harsher on diving during matches though.

Something that has been used to good effect in cricket is the fourth official who watches the game on a monitor, and is only called in when a decision is marginal. It could slow the game down, which would be my main concern.

The referee's a wanker!
You don't know what you're doing!
You're not fit to refereeeee!

hehe.

 

[mank!]

Originally posted by Tom.
Nothing has changed. The situation hasn't got worse. What you do have is a minimum of 6 cameras per premiership match recording every mistake the referee makes.

Rewind to the 70's when you had some really rough tackles going in, and the referee would just turn a blind eye. Want that back?

I beg to differ, the reason the tough tackles of the 70's had gone is because of the amount of foreigners in the game and the style of play changing.

Oh, and do remember that football exists outside of the premiership.

 

[Anasyn]

Indeed, the speed of games in every division in this country has increased, it's at least twice as fast, 3 times as fast in some countries, and nowadays just about any kind of strength is punished, I've seen a yellow card dished out for a shoulder barge.

It's not just against the standard of division 1,2 and 3 refereeing (well, division 1 and 3, I occasionally go see Walsall and Kiddeminster Harriers play), and compared to some of the decisions I've seen at St Andrews (I'm not even basing this on watching it on TV, I'm a season ticket holder, so basing this on watching live from in the ground), they're practically godlike in how good they read the game, even with "The referee's a wanker" ringing out every 10 minutes.

I'm comparing it also against the standard of the European referees, in particular the Italians (not too much the spanish, but even they're better than our lot). Referees there are allowed to use their common sence, they'll let the game flow where possible, and they're not whistle and card happy wannabe-celebrities.
Some of the guys over here must think they're as big as David Beckham, when in reality they're absolutely ruining the game on all levels, as a match, as a competition and as a sport.

Something that's been said way too often of late, and never listened to by refs: "Punters go to a match to see a good, combatitive game of 11 v 11. These sendings off ruin a game time and time again because teams put 10 men behind the ball and defend for all their worth."

 

[mank]

When Premiership (i.e. professional) referees come to referee at Swindon, they get escorted from their hotel to the ground with their assistants and usually their security (yes, big bouncers to protect them) and I've heard of one or two being disappointed that they've not been stopped for their autograph.

Once upon a time I was in the executive box for a match and Mr. Barry Knight was referee. Before the match he was in the bar and he was giving it some, saying how he'd never refereed at Swindon without sending at least one player off and rubbish like that. Surprise surprise, he sent 3 players off in the game.

How can they behave like this and get away with it? They think they're bigger than the game, which they are most certainly not. It's stupid.

The best referee I've ever seen was an ex-player, forgotten his name but he let the game flow and only made one booking (which was deserved) IIRC. His refereeing let the game flow and it produced a good game of attacking football and it was very entertaining.

 

[Anasyn]

There was a good referee I saw last season, unfortunately I can't remember what game it was OR his name for the likes of me, which is a real shame. He really let the game move, didn't give silly free kicks to either side, and only time he ignored a plea was to play the advantage, which in actual fact led to a goal anyway. I think the name was Steve something but can't be certain.

Something really needs to be done about the refereeing in this country, even if it's "hiring" foreign referees and sending ours back to school, relegating them all, or telling them all to quic their day jobs and make them full time referees.

 

[xane]

Intimidating the Referee has become a "legitimate" tactic used by many clubs, I recall several instances; Ian Wright smashing up the Ref's dressing room after a sending off, Roy Keane and his mates shouting in the Ref's face, even back to Di Canio's famous shove.

Referees are only responding to the frequent instances of intimidatory tactics being used, and it seems endorsed by managers too, as they seem to undergo regular fines and touchline bans.

Play may not be dirtier, but player attitudes towards the officials certainly has become a lot nastier in recent years. And managers are at the forefront of it all, they don't seem to think they lost because of the 11 donkeys they put on the pitch, but a simple "bad" decision.

It should be like cricket, if you so much as question the Referee decision you're off, mind you I don't think many games will end with all 22 on the pitch every Saturday !

 

[mank]

Originally posted by xane
it seems endorsed by managers too, as they seem to undergo regular fines and touchline bans.

I see your point, but it's already happening. Managers get a touchline ban for even saying anything against the referee. It's a passionate game and as such people get carried away with the moment. It's not like cricket where it's all slow paced.

 

[mank]

Anyone who watched the Arsenal v Inter Milan match last night would have seen some excellent refereeing. Typically, the ref wasn't British.

 

[Anasyn]

Italian refs imo are probably the best ones in Europe, can't say the world, not really seen non European referees, but still, the FA could do with taking some hints from these guys

Unfortunately I didn't get to see the match cos of work, which I'm gutted about, love seeing arsenal lose cos I hate Arsene Wenger.
Only other way around it is to tell players "fine, you intimidate the referees, not just you get fines, but your club does too" that'd hopefully cause both the clubs and players to stop this stupid crowding the ref stuff.. although knowing our refs they'd take it too far and insist that a player coming up and saying "but I didn't touch him ref, he dived, even his team-mates admit it" was intimidating them

 

[echo]

How apt this thread is, today I saw the worst refereeing display I've ever known. The game was Notts County v Tranmere Rovers at Meadow Lane and every single person in that ground (Tranmere fans included, and they got most of the decisions their way) seemed to be appauled by what we were seeing.

From the opening few minutes (in which Notts took the lead, houpla!) there were needless stoppages, moving free kicks a few feet to the left/right when there was absolutely no need (i.e. in the middle of the park when the players want to get on with it).

The amount of stop-start in the game was getting absurd, then the bookings commenced, of which I lost count after about seven, though, bizarrely he failed to send off a Tranmere player who knocked out central defender unconscious and left him with blood pouring down his face -- he was stretchered off with concussion and for stitches, the offending player recieved a yellow card.

Towards the hour mark and onwards - as the ref really started to lose control of the match - you were lucky to see a couple of challenges, or the ball reach about 10 feet in the air without the game being pulled back for shirt-pulling, dissent, obstructions and all the rest of them.. The ref's name was Mr Mark Warren, if you get the chance to see him, don't. Absolutely ruined what could have been a good game (what I mean is, Notts stood a chance of winning), and pissed off about 6000 people.

Waste of £14 tbh.

 

[Ash!]

I cant undestand for the life of me why the ref's are so against using video evidence for key decisions.

Is it such a big problem to hold their hands up and say "wait a minute key decision here I need to review it properly before giving a penalty etc"

If anything it will enhance their reputation with players and fans alike if they get more decisions right.

IMHO FIFA & UEFA are to blame for this making it in to a non contact sport

 

[Tom]

Video evidence would undermine everything that a referee is there to do. I think you would end up with a situation where clubs were appealing every decision made, after viewing video evidence, and making a mockery of the game itself.

The best thing to do would be to only appoint professional referees, refereeing has always been and should always be a contentious part of the game, it gives everybody much more to talk about.

For what its worth, I'd like to see any of you lot do their job, with upwards of 30 000 people screaming blue murder at you, to keep your cool can't be easy. They're under the same pressures and working in the same environment as the players, yet nobody bats an eyelid when a player loses his temper.

 

[Clowneh!]

So what if it's undermining what the refs are there to do? It makes for a fairer game yeh?

 

[Munkey-]

Removes the personal aspect of the game. Who'd need a referee? you could just fire them, then when a foul is commited you could blow a klaxon and say over the speaker system "FOUL! yellow card"....

No, i think i like the more personal aspect of it thank you

 

[mank]

Originally posted by Tom.
The best thing to do would be to only appoint professional referees

Are you mad? The supposed 'professional' referees are the worst. They're egotistical prats who like nothing more than to flash cards around. They're much worse than the ref's we usually get in the football league.

Originally posted by Tom.
For what its worth, I'd like to see any of you lot do their job, with upwards of 30 000 people screaming blue murder at you, to keep your cool can't be easy. They're under the same pressures and working in the same environment as the players, yet nobody bats an eyelid when a player loses his temper.

I don't see what this has to do with anything frankly, the ref's are there to do a job and they're not doing it properly regardless if the attendance is 3,000 or 30,000. As for the comment about players losing their tempers, how often do you go to football matches?

On a related note, the ref got knocked unconscious at the Crystal Palace v Millwall game yesterday, hehe!

 

[Jonaldo]

The ref had no control over Man U - Arsenal today. Bowing to pressure all the time by Man U fans and players.

 

[Ch3tan]

Really? I thought he was fairly accurate. He can only call what he sees. Why if he was bowing to fan and player pressure did he book Keane? He had incredible amounts of howling and he still booked him. Viera knew what he was doing, he shouldn't have done it -he needs anger management to help him stop being bated so easily.

As for Arsenal trying to say they are picked on. Look at their players behaviour post match, maybe they should control themselves more.

 

[mank]

Originally posted by Jonaldo
The ref had no control over Man U - Arsenal today. Bowing to pressure all the time by Man U fans and players.

Actually, I thought he didn't do too badly considering the last time he refereed the two sides he went mental in the first five minutes. He tried to let the game flow and wasn't particularly card-happy. It got completely out of hand though but it was through no fault of his own.

But now comes the real controversy; Vieira and Van Nistelrooy. Ultimately, the bottom line is that there was no absolutely no need nor excuses for Vieira lashing out like he did and whether contact was made or not, there was certainly the intent there. I realise that Ruud didn't help the situation with his reaction, however with his track record he could have gone down like he'd been shot and he didn't, he instictively moved out of the way but chose to play on it. Fair enough, that's wrong and should be punished, which, presumably might have been what the yellow card was for. However I'm not entirely sure what he was booked for, the only other explanation would be climbing and if so that's a little harsh. It happens week in and week out at every level of the game and players just get given a foul against them for it and play resumes with no fuss. Furthermore, Vieira did himself no favours with his reaction to his first booking and how he behaved. Whether or not he should have been booked in the first place is highly debatable because he did make contact with the ball but also with the player. Sometimes you'll get away with it, sometimes you won't. There's also a chance the referee wouldn't have booked him had he just shut up and not tried to backchat the referee and display petulance and dissent by walking off and refusing to accept the booking which in itself is a bookable offence. It's tough to say as to whether or not the red card was warranted, but I do think it was the right decision. Whether or not it would have been a straight red or not is another matter. There was a similar situation at Swindon a few weeks ago when our midfield maestro Igoe reacted angrily to a bad tackle on him by 'headbutting' him. The player in question - Steve Heffernan of Notts County had been kicking Sammy all over the pitch for the first hour of the match and although his reaction did himself no favours, in the circumstances you can see why he reacted like he did - just as you can see more or less why Vieira was angry about it. Now, Igoe didn't actually make any contact on the opposition player but was shown a straight red, presumably because the intention was there. If this is the case, then Vieira undoubtedly deserved to go but once again the rules are blurred and the referees never follow the letter of the law, which leads to debates like this and general confusion. Ultimately I think Vieira deserved to get sent off but Ruud didn't help the situation by playacting a bit. Either way, I doubt we'll hear the end of it for the next week or so.

It's not over yet, though! Onto the penalty. I didn't get a good look at this on the telly, but the ref was perfectly placed and he gave it. I can see how Arsenal would aggreived by the decision and personally I was glad Ruud missed because I felt a draw was a fair result considering how the game went, but from what I could see of the incident it certainly looked as if Keown pulled Forlan's shirt and gave him a rather large nudge and I've seen penalties given for much less. The other debatable point is whether the penalty should have been retaken as Lehmann was off his line very quickly, something the referee and his assistants are supposed to be cracking down on. There was a perfect example of this, which was the penalty Birmingham won against Leeds yesterday which had to be retaken. Personally I think it's a stupid rule, but never mind because that's another kettle of fish.

Finally, the reaction of the Arsenal players to Ruud after the match. This was unacceptable, there was no provocation and Ruud was quietly walking off the pitch when someone shoved him from behind (Edu, I think) then Keown came flying at him with his arm out and Lauren gave him a right royal shove and could be seen hurling abuse at him. As a football fan I realise that emotions are high and the adrenaline is pumping, but for four or five Arsenal players to become involved in the fashion they did was wrong, unprefessional and unsporting. I think it deserves to be punished, frankly and I hope it is. Adrenalin and 'being caught up in the moment' is no excuse, although it does explain the reasons. I hope the FA take action against Arsenal and/or the players involved, but no doubt Wenger will complain and eventually nothing will happen.

It was quite an eventful match in the end, then.

 

[Tom]

Originally posted by mank
how often do you go to football matches?

I never pay to watch, I'm there in a filming capacity. Yesterday I was at Villa vs Charlton for instance. At least 2 players were sailing close to the wind.

I see footballers losing their temper all the time, the TV might not show it, but I can certainly see them calling eachother 'fucking c**t', and worse. It happens all the time. You don't see referees doing that.

 

[mank]

Originally posted by Tom.
I see footballers losing their temper all the time, the TV might not show it, but I can certainly see them calling eachother 'fucking c**t', and worse. It happens all the time. You don't see referees doing that.

No, you don't see referees doing it becaus e they're there to uphold the law, not shout and swear at players. Personally I don't care what players say to each other on the pitch, provided it's not highly insulting, threatening and of course racist. I've probably called most of Swindon's first team "useless bastards" on more than one occasion, and I've got no doubt a lot of other fans have as well.

Players lose their cool because for the most, they really care about the result. Ultimately, the only thing referees care about (especially the 'professional' ones) is that they don't get points taken off them by the bloke in the stands and they get to take their pay home as a result of it. They don't care about the result of the match, ergo they don't get angry about it.

 

[Ch3tan]

Exactly what mank said in his long post. He saved me having to try and explain my post in more detail, which I am way to bunged up to do.

Fucking first cold of the year :/

 

[echo]

player in question - Steve Heffernan of Notts County had been kicking Sammy all over the pitch for the first hour of the match

It's PAUL Heffernan and he's a good lil' player :[

 

[echo]

I've probably called most of Swindon's first team "useless bastards" on more than one occasion, and I've got no doubt a lot of other fans have as well.

Well yeah, tbh Swindon's first team are useless bastards.

 

[mank]

Originally posted by echo
Well yeah, tbh Swindon's first team are useless bastards.

four nil

 

[echo]

I never said we weren't a bunch of useless bastards too, you're just slightly less useless.

 

[Ash!]

Originally posted by Jonaldo
The ref had no control over Man U - Arsenal today. Bowing to pressure all the time by Man U fans and players.

What a complete and utter pile of wank. I was at the game today mate. Pressure of the fans my arse, the only pressure he had was when everytime an Arsenal player was fouled he went down like a sack of spuds.

I was personally looking for the sniper in the stands who kept hitting these players

 

[mank]

Another useless ref tonight at Swindon v Luton. I'll write more tomorrow when I'm not quite so consumed by utter hatred for all things that wear black and carry a whistle.