ooooo.... a serious discussion!

[tris-]

Can the future influence the past?

"Are we not drawn onward, we few, drawn onward to new era?" The answer would seem to be yes, if only because time always moves forward, drawing not just "we few" but everyone and everything "onward to new era."

But what if time is like the palindrome above? What if the so-called arrow of time flies both ways, forward and back? What then? What now? What next?

People have debated the nature of time since, well, people invented it. Time is, in many ways, a fabrication of our minds, a superficial construct that helps us explain the universe, plot our course through existence and show up when we're supposed to.

"The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once," Albert Einstein once said.

And so it goes, one thing happens, then another - a phenomenon called cause-and-effect. "It's a notion so deeply ingrained that it's hard to think about things any other way," said Daniel Sheehan, a professor of physics at the University of San Diego.

But Sheehan does, as do other physicists who met recently at USD to discuss and debate the concept of "reverse causation," a fantastical notion that suggests effects can precede causes, and the future can influence the past, assuming the past and future actually "exist" in the first place.

full story: http://www.paramuspost.com/article.php/2006071015214274

discuss :kissit:

 

[old.Tohtori]

Well, this depends if we believe in a pre-determined future or not.

If every action we make, without any control from others, is pre-determined, then i believe the causiality could effect in the other direction as well.

BAsicly every piece being in place, which would not REALLY be a cause of anything, but simply a "be".

If we believe that the future, and past, is our doing and choices effect it, i see it very hard for the future events, that are born from actions taken now, effecting past events.

It's basicly like saying that because i pour a drink of water, i become thirsty.

Which is interesting, but higly unlikely.

EDIT: Oh and poop, piss and tits.

 

[Chronictank]

unless someone invents something that goes fast enough it can go into the past and hcange something, no tbh.
The argument they put forward doesnt make sence entirely.
Most the article just says "you wont understand it" and doesnt actually explain a awful lot and the bits that are explaining what it is simply describe cause and effect and the rest is pretty shaky to say the least.

You push a ball which is balanced on the top of a hill, the ball will roll down it.
Cause and effect, you can thave an effect then a cause for that happens

It really depends on what you believe, if you beleive time is already written (i.e the future already exists), then the future cannot have any influence on the past because it is already destined to happen, bar a external force going back and changing the past.
But at any given moment, that moment is affected by the past so how can the future affect the past.
The rest is psychology not physics as the article claims

If however you believe the future hasnt happened already, and is created as we go along, the end result doesnt exist. Something that doesnt exist cant influence something that can

off to lunch, too much thinking for pre-lunch ^^

 

[Hansmoleman]

they can change the way you think about the past, not the past itself though, if you get what i mean

 

[Svartmetall]

Since entropy exists, for the universe as a whole there definitely is a past that has happened, a moment that is 'now' and a future that has not yet happened. In terms of our consciousness, I suspect there is no past or future, merely an eternal, ever-changing now.

 

[Svartmetall]

they can change the way you think about the past, not the past itself though, if you get what i mean

Orwell's '1984' covered this very well . Everyone should read that book, it's a fucking classic.

 

[old.windforce]

In this dimension time is liniair, so the answer is no

A strong indicator against pre-determined future is random events

 

[echome]

In this dimension time is liniair, so the answer is no

A strong indicator against pre-determined future is random events

But what do you mean by random? Can anything be REALLY random...


... You guys think to much tbh

 

[DocWolfe]

yeah nothing is random... its caused by a serious of events. When you think of a random number in your head, its not really random its caused by a serious of electrical pulses firing off in your head... if that smale sequence of pulses happened you would think of the same number. Its only considered random because we cant yet determine the sequence.

Same with rolling dice... it could be replicated if you knew all the factors

 

[Jeremiah]

I think one man's "random" experience, is another man's "planned" experience - its a point of view thing

On the other hand, I think we need to believe in randomness in order to believe in free will. Otherwise, the world is predetermined, and thats depressing more than anything else.

I think the human mind is the most complex example of randomness tho.

 

[tris-]

On the other hand, I think we need to believe in randomness in order to believe in free will. Otherwise, the world is predetermined, and thats depressing more than anything else.

.

im not sure why its depressing. ive believed in pre determinism for many years. now i live joyfully in the fact that what ever im doing, im supposed to be doing

free will is over rated imo

 

[evzy]

Too many big words in this thread for me to be bothered to read it at home...and work have cut out me FH access there

Alas I shall never know what this thread is about

 

[tris-]

Too many big words in this thread for me to be bothered to read it at home...and work have cut out me FH access there

Alas I shall never know what this thread is about

if you could only go backwards and while going backwards you could only go forwards, how much would it cost to call with voda fone cross network?

 

[Jeremiah]

im not sure why its depressing. ive believed in pre determinism for many years. now i live joyfully in the fact that what ever im doing, im supposed to be doing

free will is over rated imo

Pre determined means that you arent responsible for anything, neither is anyone else. So you live in a world where no one chooses to like you, hence friendship or love cannot really exist. Not to mention predeterminism removes the need for justice, since no one is responsible for crimes they commit - they never had a choice in the matter.

I'd prefer free will

 

[liloe]

Not to mention predeterminism removes the need for justice, since no one is responsible for crimes they commit - they never had a choice in the matter.

I'd prefer free will

Ahh, somebody who thinks like me =) If everything was predetermined, how could we use words like want, like, love, await etc.

Basically we'd be like a train following the rails, totally irresponsible of our behaviour, so if I decide to kill someone (well, decide, "am comitted to"), it's perfectly ok, I couldn't to anything else.

 

[Chronictank]

Ahh, somebody who thinks like me =) If everything was predetermined, how could we use words like want, like, love, await etc.

Basically we'd be like a train following the rails, totally irresponsible of our behaviour, so if I decide to kill someone (well, decide, "am comitted to"), it's perfectly ok, I couldn't to anything else.

because it is predetermined by things like want, like, love etc..
all time being linear says that what you are going to do has already been pre-decided by yourself. it doesnt make it any less of your choice so i fail to see where your free will is being comprimised.
All it says (matrix moment) is that something is going to happen, and wouldnt have happened any other way

taking your example,
if you decided you were going to kill someone, you were going to do it anyway for whatever factors out of your own free will. Not being directed by some foreign power, therefore you are responsible for your actions as it is your decision to do it

 

[Jeremiah]

if you decided you were going to kill someone, you were going to do it anyway for whatever factors out of your own free will. Not being directed by some foreign power, therefore you are responsible for your actions as it is your decision to do it

You cant make a decision if you dont have a choice, and if you dont have free-will then the concept of choice is invalid. Basically, the choice has been removed from you, in fact there never was a choice since it was always going to happen Thats why there is no responsibility in a pre-determined world!

 

[Chronictank]

You cant make a decision if you dont have a choice, and if you dont have free-will then the concept of choice is invalid. Basically, the choice has been removed from you, in fact there never was a choice since it was always going to happen Thats why there is no responsibility in a pre-determined world!

decisions are yours regardless of whether they are destined to happen,
example.
your in a shop
there are 2 chocolate bars.

If you go to the future it is already known which one you are going to choose,
but in the present it is your conscious decicion that at the time that determines which chocolate you are going to buy.
You are basically saying that there is no responsibility because you dont make the decision, when in fact you do as noone has come along and forced you to go one way or the other, therefore making it your decision.
Just because it has already happened doesnt mean you didnt make the choice, all it means is you have made the choice already, therefore you are accountable for that choice, what happens in the instance is you are simply living the moment

This all ofc if you believe the future had already been determined which i personally do

 

[noblok]

Thats why there is no responsibility in a pre-determined world!

There are several alternatives: reason-responsiveness, guidance control and reactive attitudes among others.

In short: guidance control is probably easiest to explain in analogy with addiction. Now, there are two kinds of addicts: the happy and the unhappy addict. The unhappy addict is the addict who despises his addiction, but still takes drugs, because he can't help it. The happy addict is addicted too, but he enjoys it. He takes his drugs with full conviction (is that an expression used in english?). In a determined world humans can be compared with the happy addict. This is, according to some, enough to hold them responsible for their acts.

Practical reason view/reason-responsiveness means that our determinism can be influenced by reasoning. This means that we act according to the reasons we think best (in contrast with acting against the reasons you yourself think best). According to the ones who hold this view this is enough free will to warrant responsibility.

The last one is a bit more subtle. What it says is that our moral disapprobation is a reaction on the act (a reactive attitude). By assuming this reactive attitude we cannot take determinism into account. The reactive attitude of moral disapprobation excludes the question of determinism.

 

[Jeremiah]

There are several alternatives: reason-responsiveness, guidance control and reactive attitudes among others.

In short: guidance control is probably easiest to explain in analogy with addiction. Now, there are two kinds of addicts: the happy and the unhappy addict. The unhappy addict is the addict who despises his addiction, but still takes drugs, because he can't help it. The happy addict is addicted too, but he enjoys it. He takes his drugs with full conviction (is that an expression used in english?). In a determined world humans can be compared with the happy addict. This is, according to some, enough to hold them responsible for their acts.

Practical reason view/reason-responsiveness means that our determinism can be influenced by reasoning. This means that we act according to the reasons we think best (in contrast with acting against the reasons you yourself think best). According to the ones who hold this view this is enough free will to warrant responsibility.

The last one is a bit more subtle. What it says is that our moral disapprobation is a reaction on the act (a reactive attitude). By assuming this reactive attitude we cannot take determinism into account. The reactive attitude of moral disapprobation excludes the question of determinism.

I understand what you are seeing, and I see your point. But I believe that in a predetermined world, the word "happy" would have no meaning, as it would merely be an emotion that we were always destined to have. To hold someone responsible for anything that they had no choice in would be an injustice in itself. But I admit I have a black and white view of what a predetermined world is In effect, everything is meaningless if we dont have free will.

 

[evzy]

if you could only go backwards and while going backwards you could only go forwards, how much would it cost to call with voda fone cross network?

Dunno

 

[Huntingtons]

In this dimension time is liniair, so the answer is no

A strong indicator against pre-determined future is random events

how is time linear? its man made so has no effect on the universe as such... wether time stops or not the universe will still evolve. harder for me to explain on english so ill let it be there :<

 

[Morchaoron]

im not sure why its depressing. ive believed in pre determinism for many years. now i live joyfully in the fact that what ever im doing, im supposed to be doing

free will is over rated imo

how to help people get rid of of pre determinism:

when they say they believe in pre determinism, knock them down with a baseball bat and keep hitting them, when they start begging you to stop it you say: "sorry, i cannot, there is no free will"

 

[snushanen]

Time is a dimension, combined with room dimensions we get the "timespace".
(a space with observebal time)

In any one-dimensioned room you can go 2 ways, with the line or against the line. This is just like with the time. it can go forwards or backwards.

The reason none of uss have ever seen the time move the other way is because the time arrows points foward. As said we have only one time dimension but we have at least 3 time arrows. I think the 3 time arrows keep the direction of the time constant and stable.

1. The "Order -> chaos" time arrow, every thing that happens in a timespace loose the total amount of order. For example, a cup is matter in form of "order", we have made it into something usefull. if we trow the cup onto the floor it will brake everytime we try it if we hit hard enogh. If you gather all the pices of glass and trow them on the floor, it wont gather into a cup again! This time arrow goes for everything in the universe, when time is moving by, every "action" or thing that happens will result in the loss of "order"

If time moved backwards the total amount of "order" in a system would grow with time and that dosnt make sence at all, how could we gain "usefull" energy/matter by just watching the time pass by. We have to use energy to create usefull things, like use electrisity to make a glass out of sand.

2. The phsycological time arrow. The time arrow that results in: "we can remember the past and not the future"

that would result that we could remember everything that would happen in th "future" and not in the "past" if the time moved backwards.

3. The time arrow that the universe grows in (the cosmological time arrow). Actualy there is one theory were this time arrow turns around and the universe in shrinking and at ends with the oposite of big bang, a big crunch. But i belive the theory were the universe will expand forever but flat out and expand lesser and lesser is more belivebal

I doubt that the time could move backwards with a velocity like it is in positive direction, i dont belive the time can actualy move backwards, it dosnt fit with the time arows. But i dont deny the idea of traveling backwards in time. Someone belives its possible trough a einstein-rosen bridge aka wormhole (2 singularities who connect a shortcut in the "timespace" allowing traveling distances faster then light). I dont belive its possible but I dosnt deny it. Wormholes are not proven yet as far as I know, and the wormholes Einstein predicted are far to unstable to use as "time-travelers"

And as many has disscused in this thread , the phenonomen "random" and innteresting it is. I belive real "randomness" exists on the elementary particle level. Acording to quantum physics we cant observe the position and velocity of an particle with 100.00 % accuracy. The more accurate we whant to register the position, then more unaccurate the velocity gets and opposite.
Randomness on bigger levels like in a game of cards, It isnt realy random because the card is the same no matter what we do, we just call it random because we dont know what it is

 

[Bracken]

The question isn't can you change the past, but how do you?

 

[Morchaoron]

how to help people get rid of of pre determinism:

when they say they believe in pre determinism, knock them down with a baseball bat and keep hitting them, when they start begging you to stop it you say: "sorry, i cannot, there is no free will"

also, i must add (yes i just quoted myself), that although its just a joke, it does have a certain truth in it....

 

[liloe]

"Butterfly Effect" anyone? =) Great movie

Anyways, if I decided my own future before it happens, then that's not really predeterminism, that would be planning. Predeterminism means, that everything abides by some fixed rules, which is only partially true in my opinion. Ofc we can calculate how the stars move and what happens if we throw 1kilo out of a window in 200m height.

Human life and way of thinking are different though, as they don't follow a strict line. What works for objects is impossible to do for the human brain, as there is no way you can 100% predict its actions.

 

[tris-]

how to help people get rid of of pre determinism:

when they say they believe in pre determinism, knock them down with a baseball bat and keep hitting them, when they start begging you to stop it you say: "sorry, i cannot, there is no free will"

and that exactly backs up what i think.

even though you probably wont believe that either

 

[tris-]

"Butterfly Effect" anyone? =) Great movie

Anyways, if I decided my own future before it happens, then that's not really predeterminism, that would be planning. Predeterminism means, that everything abides by some fixed rules,

sorry but thats wrong. it does not follow rules but factors. many different factors that all influence one another to create a 'moment'. the only moment that could possibly exist because of what happend earlier. you live that moment...

but that doesnt mean you dont decide what happens. you do decide. but you only reach that one, exact conclusion because of the way your brain waves went at that exact time. if you happend to scratch your self for example, your brain waves would of been going at a different time than before.

you dig that?

 

[Chronictank]

how to help people get rid of of pre determinism:

when they say they believe in pre determinism, knock them down with a baseball bat and keep hitting them, when they start begging you to stop it you say: "sorry, i cannot, there is no free will"

sigh...
please read the thread, i think tris explains it better than me above