not so much "low" but "no" ping bastard.

[old.maw]

Heres an interesting one : is it really fair that people with a ping of above 100 play people with pings of 20? I was on minos the other day and there were 2 people playing with pings constantly below 25. ISDN i can just about handle, without too much upset and arguments, but 20 ? Whether or not it is fair is beside the point (if you want to play with these people you obviously see it as a challenge), but in my opinion, as a modem player, that sort of connection causes annoyance for everybody else, especially if someone half decent gets hold of it. Imagine Nimrod or blokey with a ping of 20. "Oh dear christ", i hear you say.

I really dislike the idea of seperate servers for different connections, but now it seems there is no alternative. Maybe i'm just moaning because i can't afford ISDN, and i live in the middle of a huge field, so no-one can be bothered to bring me cable. But i'm sure lots of people agree. I think minos should stay the same as it is, and BW DM be changed to a modem only affair. That way, Minos will be happily occupied by the huge population of isdn'ers and cable modemers, and BW DM will be packed with lots of 'tight fisted' modemers, who will have no reason whatsoever to complain

Argue at will, kiddies.

btw, can someone please mail me or icq me a copy of zbot, i'm gonna have a closer look at q2 programming etc, and was totally bewildered by Gladiator source and want sommit a bit simpler.
mail : maw@emwelec.co.uk
icq : 19865365

mAw

 

[Rup]

I'm now too ashamed to use my (soon to be no more) Janet connect to play Q2 or Q3 on Barrysworld because of the super-low ping. Especially so with Q3 because it seems to report artificially low values (I've had as low as 6 ms).

However, there's only so much advantage ULPB can give; I don't notice any difference between <20 and 60-100, say. Reaction time certainly helps -- but in Q2 and Q3 there is much more to the game than just reactions. When I am HPB I have no problems playing against LPBs or ULPBs except irritation if they start mouthing off about how lame the rest of us are.

(I do, however, have no qualms about playing QW ULPB because of the insane level of skill amongst those who still play -- even 20ms won't save me...)

Re: the bot... firstly, anyone who has a copy of zbot or the source probably isn't likely to own up to it to someone they don't know. Secondly, and more importantly, the zbot is a proxy bot and not a mod; I assume by "q2 programming" you mean "mod programming" since if you do genuinely want to write a client-side bot to cheat, you wouldn't be stupid enough to admit it here. Not only will the gladiator source be *soo* much easier to understand than the zbot source (you won't have to wade through the sockets, protocol. checksumming and bsp code -- you've got the gi calls instead) but the zbot code will be useless as a mod programming tutorial.

Rup.

 

[old.[DBP]hol]

Well TBH Im an ISDN'er so Janet isnt so much of a prob to me, however if you get about 4 or more lpb's on a server or even hpb's with good machines it caseus a prob, its not so much ping as FPS that lags you out, when a lower ping demands bandwidth from the server due to the map is when you get lagged to pieces

Most Janet players arent a problem because they dont have good hardware cos they are playing on university/work machines so I wouldnt blame them to much

 

[old.maw]

No, i quite specifically want ZBot for its proxy usage, and its simplicity in what it does.

A 20 ping is virtually LAN play, so between 20 ping and ISDN there is a big difference. I'm not talking about SLPB (i.e. Janet) i'm talking about LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLPB players (cable, optical). To compare a person with a 20 ping and someone with a 200 ping is literally impossible, without taking into account the connection, which is 10 times the speed. LAN versus 56k modem ? Umm....

 

[old.graZe]

I see where you're coming from maw, it's like playing football against ppl with 1 leg! But then again, you get what ya pay 4! These ppl pay 3x the line rental ( at least! ), and a large installation fee.....

just testing summin

------------------
[PYRO]graZe
Member of the PyroManiax Clan - Join now:
steve3@mail.com
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[This message has been edited by graZe (edited 25 July 1999).]

 

[old.[AT]R1CH]

I have taken an interest too in q2 programming (mods), and also how the game generally works. I do have a zbot, but I absolutely do NOT use it against other human players without their prior consent and their actual ASKING that I use it (I don't enjoy using it, it makes the game less fun). I refuse to give it to anyone for obvious reasons, although here are some specs/info that might be helpful:

Basically the zbot is a proxy that sits between you and the q2 server. You tell the zbot what server to connect to and it will bind itself to the server port and only connect once the proxy itself recives a connection (connect localhost:27911) - then it kicks in and connects to the server. Because the zbot intercepts the datastream, the only way for you to send commands (ie, enable, radar, etc) to it is to send a command to the server which it ignores but the zbot doesn't. Such a command is impulse. Servers usually ignore impulse commands, but the bot intercepts them and does the appropriate thing. As such, a simple if not extremely effective way of killing zbots is to have the server intercept the impulse too (maybe I should say the zbot doesn't intercept the impulses, it merely reads them; they are still passed to the server), and kickban the impulse 69-80 range. Q2admin does just this and is really quite foolproof protection.

The proxy actually loads the .BSP too (so if you are a low ram system you face 2x the memory usage = lockup etc) and calculates with a command similar to gi.trace and/or findradius any classname 'player's... and then modifies the outgoing datastream to shoot dead centre. This of course is very CPU intensive, it also has a lag type effect on the server too. Expect to see your ping at least +100 or double when using zbot (even on a LAN test my ping was in 120s sometimes) - making the zbot defeat itself really.

One thing overlooked by many is that although zbot shoots for you, it can actually use it's data gained from findradius to display a radar indicating the positions of friends and foes. This often gets by many zbot protection systems that only catch the auto aim part. So if your opponent always seems to know where you are... this could be a reason. This also has to be enabled with an impulse command, so any decent zbot kicker should pick up on this also. (note the zbot comes with 3 .PCX files, radar background, red and blue blips that are placed in baseq2\pics\zb so look there if you suspect someone locally is using a bot)

These are the default impulses/keys:
bind INS "impulse 169" // menu on/off
bind UPARROW "impulse 170" //
bind DOWNARROW "impulse 171" //
bind LEFTARROW "impulse 172" //
bind RIGHTARROW "impulse 173" //

the arrows are used to navigate the menu and toggle options, although some can be accessed (like bot on/off) with one direct impulse, ie when you hold Z you could have it use the auto aim and stop when you release it)

I hope this information is useful, and don't pester me for the bot I won't give it to you (I don't want to sound like someone who is a selfish "my bot! you can't have it!" type person - if I give it to at least one person chances are that person passes it on etc etc.)

I never once have played against other humans with the bot without their consent. I respect their wishes and really I find it quite boring just running around and having the POS shoot for me, I don't get the cheap thrills that other people do. The satisfaction is in knowing that your skills shot that slug that got 2x midair rails, not the zbots programming.

[AT]R1CH

 

[DApea!]

I really dont see your problem here.

You are overlooking that most servers are set to kick/ban/notify anyone using a bot.

Apart from Force9/Clara FFA servers.
But u can go invisible anyways

My ping when testing a bot online/lan didnt change at all, nor my PC performance.

I dont know if u have to crap zbot, but it certainly doesnt sound like the one i used.

Also for mine, you can set up the impulses, cusomise, etc.

and for interest, the port is 28000.
plus, if you use nitro proxy too, most mods will get confused, somtimes kick you, or not.


I mostly was experimenting with LAN play, but did try servers such as Force9 and a couple of Globalnet servers, both of which either kicked, or notified you of having a zbot.
of course, if you have admin on the (battleground) server or rcon on any, then apart from being a lucky bast, you are most likley to be able to use one without a problem, which is bad.


Ill give you mine maw, but as i say, there is no problem as you will not be able to go on almost any server without a kick/notify/ban etc.

og course, if you are worried about me using one, i aint.

i just had to see what all the fuss was about so i 'downloaded' one, easily. which is also bad.


another 'bad' thing, is that they are also very easy to use, so even newbies can use em.

BTW, i find BWadmin annoying when i cant have a conversation, drop weapons, or organise tactics, games, maps etc when i can only say one thing every 5 seconds!!!

FFS

if anyone runs a server with BWadmin, please change that crap setting please.

(good for FFA servers, not Team/League ones)

 

[old.Monyet]

hey, i'm a regular JANET player - my ping is ~27, was that me you saw on that server?

i don't really see what the fuss is about though. so what if i'm an lpb? does it give me a HUGE advantage? no. just a reliable connection.

at the end of the day it tends to be down to just lack of skill - you never see good hpb players complaining about lpbs (usually cos they're kicking our asses) - why? cos they know that ping don't matter.

i only ever get complaints from ppl who are usually crap and scoring shit in a game. 'lpb lamer with a ping like that you should be doing much better' <- ?!?! i wish lower pings means more frags!!

one thing i am concerned about though is the strains that we cause on servers - are lpbs causing servers to lag? or is it just cos there are so many more ppl on the net these days?

btw - about that BWAdmin thing, if you send too many sentences in short space of time it actually crashes the server hehehe

 

[DApea!]

Im a HPW

tis fun, part from the laggness, when i am beating a lpb, its usually them that are annoyed.

'ohhh your crap'
'WP lamer'
'im playing shit today, you wait till im back on form'


etc

and oh yea, im not even from WP (quake2 wise)


but most lpb's are good, and u DO have an advantage, the main one being not very much pj's or lag, even tho i have seen lpb's moan abt lag..

but, you get what you pay for. so i dont care abt lpb's.

till im on ADSL.

)


[This message has been edited by DApea! (edited 28 July 1999).]

 

[old.Skeeve]

If you actually used both isdn and a leased line you would see that there is almost no difference between them especially with servers being rate/fps capped these days.

 

[old.graZe]

Um, what's JANET??
Where do i get it?
How much does it cost?
ahem.

------------------
[PYRO]graZe
Member of the PyroManiax Clan - Join now:
steve3@mail.com
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[old.maw]

Can i just say, for third time, i'm not talking about lpbs (ISDN), i'm talking about people with pings like you'd get on a LAN. I'm not having a "dig at lpbs", i don't care either, you live with it. For those of you who agree that its "not much different, bit less pj, i s'pose" for people with a 200 ping and someone with 20, i suggest you go play on a server in Spain, then play on u'r own with a couple of gladiator bots. Now do you see my point ?

This is taking a while...

 

[old.Tres]

Maw, I'm with you on this one buddy...

I am a certified HPB (56k Modemer) and frequently play against lpb's/slpb's. I am fortunate enough to be able to access ISDN via my neighbour, so I have something to compare.

Apart from operating system (I'm on 98, he's on 95) our systems are very similar (same cpu, ram and Vid card) and I find that I am deadly whilst using his ISDN.

Now I am not bad at QII on my connection, but frankly, ISDN makes me w00p ass. I believe that a good connection (sub 100) does make a world of difference, and very much doubt anybody that says otherwise.

HPB paranoia?? I don't think so...

Tres

P.S Mon: That aimed at me?

[This message has been edited by Tres (edited 31 July 1999).]

 

[Rup]

Ok, let's drop "send me zbot source" and the "ISDN is OK, LAN isn't" arguments -- and it probably would be best ignore the "LPBs are immoral" quip, too. I'll try and steer the thread towards "we need a modem-only DM server", then.

Firstly, aren't there likely to be problems with "Q2DM has got a modem-only server, why can't our mod/game have one too?". Perhaps QW would have a claim on a modem-only server since there's a modem only league -- but I'm not sure anyone else does, though. (AFAIK) UKCCL still requires modemmers to fight against LPBs.

Secondly, where do you draw the line? With a Pace Internal you can ping 120-130 to Q2DM. Now if you consider LAN vs ISDN is a big difference, would you consider 120 vs 200 unfair? Are we to end up with three servers for LPBs, good modems and bad modems? Or would the ISDNers then want a separate server from lesser pings? How do you define (and enforce) modem only?

TBH, as long as someone with a better ping than me doesn't start telling me that I'm crap, I don't see what the problem is. There will always be someone with a better ping than around and a better ping does not equal invincibility.

Rup.

 

[old.Giant]

To be honest, I don't see what all the argument is about ....... Yes Ping does give an advantage, in that given 2 players of equal skill, the one with the lower ping will win 9 times out of 10.

But these people have _mostly_ (Yes this is aimed at you mon

) paid for their LPB status, and so should, I feel, be able to enjoy their connections. However, they should do this without ramming the fact of their LPB status down the throats of we poor, defenseless HPB's

It must be said tho, that as Rup said, we simply cannot draw a line at where we should stop descriminating <sp> in terms of ping ..... and we simply do not have the server space to allow the number of servers that would no doubt be rquired.