Nightshade RA's

[amie]

hiya need some help dunno what RA's i should get..
anyone got rr5 templet or something

atm i got dual reflexes 1, aug dex 2, aug quick 1

final specc at 50
34 stealth
44 pierce
44 CS
35 envenom
9(mebbe 10 due to autotrain) CD

help needed!
edit: also want to know what weapons to use at lvl 50 (piercers)

 

[Darkdancer.]

At the mo I have

MOP3
WA3
DR2
DODGER2 (MAY DITCH THIS)
FIRST AID (UNSURE ABOUT THIS AS IT HAS SAVED MY ASS WHEN DOTTED LOADS OF TIMES)

I may ditch doger and first aid and save for viper, although im not a big fan of active ras.

 

[Cloak_]

Hmm.

I like having MoP and WA,,

But agree with DD that Dodger may have to go.

Will think about ditching SH aswell,

I wudnt go above MoP2 simply because Crit % chance also depends on Qual % of wep, so unless we work out a formula to say MoP3 is worth it I wont bother

 

[VodkaFairy]

Vodkafairy (lvl 46 / RR3L1) has:

Aug. Dex 2
Aug. Qui 2
Dodger 2
MoPain 2
Dualist Reflexes 2

Very happy with this, only problem is see hidden. I had that, but thought it was useless because you don't often see a archer/minstrel alone anyway. But now I respecced it out, I miss it

Think I'll go for Aug Con 2 next just to get some hitpoints, after that I'll see. Maybe viper but I'm also not a big fan of active RA's.

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by N07ABL3
Crit % chance also depends on Qual % of wep

Dunno where you heard that, but I believe that's nonsense.

Crit chance is purely 10% + [MoP level]*5%

 

[Kicks]

I got:

See Hidden (and love it)
Aug Dex 2

No more suprise attacks from any gay mincers etc (also makes me more useful for rvr grpage

Anyone know if Tireless is any good?

 

[Pin]

Got Tireless 2.... Nice for an extra style at the end of a fight, but not a big enough increase IMO.


Oh, and I basically have everything of any use at level 2

 

[Aeiedil]

Here is my opinion on the mentioned RA's

Dodger : a TOTAL waste at level 50 for a nightshade, esp if you cap dex/qui from items. My base evade before the 50% cap without dodger was in the region of 55-60%

Mastery of Pain : An essential first choice, gives the best damage increase over time

Dualists Reflexes : Second best damage increase over time

Aug Con/Toughness : Both give about the same amount of HP gain to a nightshade. If your base con (40 + whatever you added) is below 50 then go for aug con first.

Wild Arcana : Nice, but expensive for the first level due to the 4 point useless pre-req. Nice when it works, but based on an average over time its not as effective as the DR or MoP

Viper : When its up its great (if not purged), however when not it obviously does fuckall. I am not a great fan of actives

My shade (at rr5) has the following

Dex 2
Con 2
Toughness 2
See Hidden
MoP3
DR3

I can keel reds with half health left

 

[Aeiedil]

unb00fed that is

 

[Darkdancer.]

Hmm

How good is that dr3 as I cound ditch 1st aid and dodger 2 to get it.

Are you sure about dodger 2 being nerfed if your unboofed?

Pin did you ditch yours?

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by Darkdancer.
Hmm

How good is that dr3 as I cound ditch 1st aid and dodger 2 to get it.

Are you sure about dodger 2 being nerfed if your unboofed?

Pin did you ditch yours?

Currently sporting:

Vanish
Purge
Aug Dex 2
Aug Qui 2
Aug Con 2
MoP 3
DR 2
Dodger 1
Toughness 2
Tireless 2
Longwind 2
AoM 2
Rain of Annihilation 1

4 points left (will get RoA 2 when I have 2 more)


I don't much like actives, but it's kinda hard to spend 70 points well. I guess if I was a NS I would be straight in there with WA and Viper though.


edit: Oh, and the only reason I got Dodger is to exploit the free respec we got with the patch - I used my last respec the night before and spent the point on Dodger 1 so that I would get another respec in the morning. (I had Dodger 3 before).

edit2: your evade will be over cap with Evade VII and your high dex/qui anyway. Dodger 1 is useless even for an unbuffed level 50 NS.

 

[Pin]

Oh, if I was a NS I would also get a couple of levels (or 3) of Avoid Pain - (Avoid Pin 2 might also help you survive longer )

 

[Aeiedil]

pin, that takes a lot of points though tbh i prefer the higher damage over time cause im not a 100% rvr shade if your only there for rvr then viper/wa might work out better. my primary tests with comparision showed that MoP outperformed DR outperformed WA over time, however when i find a way to more fairly account for the poision effects etc this may change

 

[Pin]

Yes it takes a lot of points and it's somewhat easy for me to say take them all.... But a Nightshade's strength comes from the RAs (Avoid Pain in particular)... You're all gimps until RR5+

 

[Aeiedil]

i go with my wepdamage ra's, i hate actives on the principle its bad enough having to get used to 10 buttons instead of 8, without adding on some extra buttons

if my tests show that wa+viper is vastly better than dr+mop then ill respec, otherwise though ill stick

btw, for anyone that hasnt realised, DR and MoP work together. this is on the basis that you have a fixed chance to crit with every hit, and so the more you double hit due to Dr, the more times there are where you might crit, and so the more chance overall to crit

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by Aeiedil

btw, for anyone that hasnt realised, DR and MoP work together. this is on the basis that you have a fixed chance to crit with every hit, and so the more you double hit due to Dr, the more times there are where you might crit, and so the more chance overall to crit

Errrr... Well, kinda.


MoP adds an average of 1.5% damage per level.
DR adds an average of [very hard to calculate exact amount]% damage per level.


Edit: Oh, and if you have made an attempt at calculating the value of DR I'd like to see it

 

[Aeiedil]

pin, i meant

suppose you double-swing 0% of the time
you have MoP3 giving you 25% base crit chance
in the unrealistic case assume Dr gives 10% double-swing

DR0 MoP3 = 25% chance to crit
DR10 MoP3 = 50% chance to crit

this is quoted per round of combat, the 50% would factor in the chance to double swing and thus the chance to hit. the formula for critrate is as follows :

([base crit]+0.05*[MoP])*(1+(0.25+0.025*([CD level]-1)+0.03*[DR]))

thus giving the per-round damage to be on average, factoring in critrates, approximatly : (based on a 0-50% rvr crit increase)

(1+(0.25+0.025*([CD level]-1)+0.03*[DR]))*([base damage]+[style damage bonus])*(1+(([base crit]+0.05*[MoP])*0.25))


approximatly. this of course assumes a 100% hit rate with both hands, but the theory holds. the chance to miss would just have to be factored in on this theory a higher MoP rating makes each DR level more valuable and vica versa

-NOTE : the double-swing formula is the CD formula, and i might have quoted it wrong

-another edit : ooh better write this down, its a lot simpler than the one i have in my spreadsheet atm

-and another edit : forgot to add style damage, i think this goes into the base damage bracket though (based on pa crits)

 

[Pin]

Errr. That is a completely screwed way to look at things. Chance to get a crit in a round of combat is a useless stat.

 

[Aeiedil]

no its not, its part of the way im analysing stuff

of course miss rate needs to be added in aswell as the damage etc, but imo its a perfectly fine way to look at things.

for purposes of analysis you can see on my current sheets that the changed setup is compared to a nekkid no-ra setup (basically speaking) and the effect is expressed in seconds. as i have said this methods needs work, but imo its part way to a fair way to analyse differnet skill types

 

[Pin]

Basically, they are completely independent... i.e. if X was the average dps without either, then the average dps with both would be:

[MoP]*[DR]*X

where [MoP] was the factor applied by MoP (1.5% per level)
and [DR] was the factor applied by DR (hard-to-quantify% per level)



And not:

[MoP]*[DR]*X + [MoP & DR]*X

where [MoP & DR] is some value from the interaction of MoP and DR.

 

[Aeiedil]

im not sure if i follow, ill just paste my formulae and explain them

([base crit]+0.05*[MoP])*(1+(0.25+0.025*([CD level]-1)+0.03*[DR]))

this is split into various parts. the chance to crit ([base crit]+0.05*[MoP]), and the amount of hits there are, [b(1+(0.25+0.025*([CD level]-1)+0.03*[DR])[/b]

This is because if you hit more times, then the chance of critting is called upon more. This is where CD will effect the crit rate. now onto the next formula

(1+(0.25+0.025*([CD level]-1)+0.03*[DR]))*([base damage]+[style damage bonus])*(1+(([base crit]+0.05*[MoP])*0.25))

This is split into a few parts, firstly is the swing chance, which includes DR level due to this being a the amount of swings (1+(0.25+0.025*([CD level]-1)+0.03*[DR])), the damage i have got wrong but i can be picky about that later when i write up properly, because ]))*([base damage]+[style damage bonus]) is the styled damage, and only damage from the main hand is styled, the offhand is base. this would give a diffenret formula that i will quote below. the damage done for each swing as a % compared to base damage is given by [/b](1+(([base crit]+0.05*[MoP])*0.25))[/b]. the 1 is because it cant be below 100%, ad the rest is from crit addition. the more accurate formula is something like :

([base damage]+[style damage bonus])*(1+(([base crit]+0.05*[MoP])*0.25))+
(0.25+0.025*([CD level]-1)+0.03*[DR])*[base damage]*(1+(([base crit]+0.05*[MoP])*0.25))

the top line is due to mainhand damage, teh bottom due to offhand(i split it over 2 lines to make easier to read)

 

[Aeiedil]

anyway gotta get ready to go out so wont be replying again till later or tommoz tata

 

[Pin]

Well, I'm saying firstly it is invalid to attempt to analyse damage based on damage per combat round. You need to go based on damage per second.

And secondly, the chance of getting a crit in a combat round doesn't help you determine the damage per combat round.



MoP gives a flat 1.5% damage boost per level (average over time). This is from a 5% boost to your chance to crit, and the value for crits in RvR are random between 10-50% damage (not 0-50) - so average 30% extra damage from a crit. This % value is not changed by DR or anything else. Okay, so having more DR means you are doing more base damage (per combat round or per second), and therefore MoP is doing more damage by being 1.5% of a higher base value, but the 2 are not interacting. That would be like saying speccing higher in weapon makes MoP more effective - it isn't true.

 

[saltymcpepper]

you guys have too much spare time

 

[Kicks]

erm ok can't be arsed to look through them formulae,

basically DR = more hits with offhand weapon therefore more actual crit hits correct? - therefore exatly the same as spending spec points in CD (ignoring styles)

Is this correct? yes or no pls

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by Aeiedil
([base damage]+[style damage bonus])*(1+(([base crit]+0.05*[MoP])*0.25))+
(0.25+0.025*([CD level]-1)+0.03*[DR])*[base damage]*(1+(([base crit]+0.05*[MoP])*0.25))

That would probably look a lot better if you rearranged the MoP factor outside each hand:

(([base damage]+[style damage bonus])+
(0.25+0.025*([CD level]-1)+0.03*[DR])*[base damage]))*(1+(([base crit]+0.05*[MoP])*0.25))



But there are a number of things which you aren't accounting for in there, but I'll email instead....

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by Kicks
erm ok can't be arsed to look through them formulae,

basically DR = more hits with offhand weapon therefore more actual crit hits correct? - therefore exatly the same as spending spec points in CD (ignoring styles)

Is this correct? yes or no pls

correct, yes. 1 level of DR = 6 levels of CD.


higher CD = more swings (and therefore hits) with offhand weapon, which
a) increases damage per combat round, and
b) reduces delay between combat rounds (which is 1 thing that Aeiedel hasn't included).

 

[Aeiedil]

pin i see what you mean, one of the things i havent included in that formula, but have on my spreadsheet, is swing delay

on my ss its worked out in dps from that formula with vrarious v=divisuors etc (excust bad typing tired/drinunk).

btw,m Dr isnt = 6 cd, cd isbt 0.5% per sepec afaik, will chekc records foatr the fomrulam postaded by ranger atl tomomorsa\z sometim

bgah typinga awful

 

[Cloak_]

Originally posted by Pin
Dunno where you heard that, but I believe that's nonsense.

Crit chance is purely 10% + [MoP level]*5%

Its what ive realised from actually playing the game with a variety of qual weps.

Test it urself,

Use a char w/o MoP and see how much u actually crit per 100swing using 94--MP wep

(mebbe 1000 wud be a more accurate test)

o and PLS,, no math

 

[elerand]

Do you guys actually parse combat logs to determine most this stuff?
I think most ra's that improve dmg are sound on paper, just in practice they may be rather lame.
Where CD is concerned I think the benefits are good if the miss rate isn't too low, it just depends on you hitting offhand to get the extra benefit rather than pushing your dmg up through mainhand attacks because of course you need CD to fire off before you can have a chance to crit and you still need to hit too!

Try 10 extenisve duels with people whose stats shouldn't drastically affect your miss rate and go with that, think with sc and buffs in rvr on both sides it should even out in the end