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Durux
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I have made a nightshade there will be using Celtic Dual. Should i use same speed weapons in both hands or does it work???
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kr0n
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- #2
It works the same way as with LA... Except that with LA you always hit with 2 weapons, with CD you wont. So it will only help you when you actually DO hit with 2 weapons.
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old.SadonTheGrey
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- #3
Just don't use an offhand (left) weapon that is slower than your mainhand weapon :>
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old.Kian
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- #4
No, it DOESN'T work the same as left axe... specifically, the way weapon delays work and damage is calculated is different. With LA, if your weapons are different speeds then the two get averaged out to determine your swing time. This is why zerkers favour a slow right hand weapon (for high damage) paired with a fast left hand axe (to improve the overall swing speed). With Celtic Dual, the delay is that of the weapon you swung last (or the slower weapon when you double swing). If you're doing a styled hit, you always swing the right hand weapon, unstyled attacks have an equal chance of you swinging with the left... and either way, your CD skill gives a chance of the attack being a double swing.
THe difference in damage calculation is that Left Axe, as said above, always hits - for less damage than if you'd swung each weapon alone. The higher your LA skill, the less the damage is reduced. With Celtic Dual the weapons hit for full damage - but you don't always get a double hit. Over time, the unstyled damage output of a LA user and a CD user using matched weapon pairs is the same, it's just more consistent with Left Axe.
If you do the maths for celtic dual, you'll find that you get the best damage output over time if you use a matched pair of weapons. As a nightshade, you might want to use a slower weapon for your initial PA attack for maximum damage, then switch to a matched pair - guarded rapier and a pair of angled daggers if you're BG1 levels or above and use pierce, for example.
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Falcon
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- #5
Offhand hits for 80% damage.
Also yep, optimal setup for celtic dual is equal speed weapons.
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old.willowywicca
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- #6
actually that's wrong, when 1 weapon swings the delay is that of the weapon swung, when both swing it's the average delay of both of them (like LA, but as kron said it doesn't always swing both).
as far the whole issue of slow + fast, or fast + fast, or medium speed + medium speed (no really slow offhands as far as I know). well tbh it depends on your buffs and stats. if you have exceptionally high qui and haste then the slow weapon + fast combo will actually have very close speeds owing to the fact haste and qui are percentage based reductions so a slower speed decreases by more than a high speed one, obviously they'll never be the same, but heavily buffed they're quit close..
if you're not heavily buffed, 2 equalish speed fast/meduim speed weapons is probably best..
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old.Cher
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- #7
good person to talk to about how a spec like this goes is nighthawk, his orriginal spec was something like
50 cd
44 crit
and no pierce or slash
he respecced out of it, so that kinda shows me that cd on its own is useless, and should nevere be taken over the actual spec of the main damage type
i currently have 42pierce and 19 cd
with +'s and rr's added in i do a decent amount of damage, and doubleswing quite often.
50 cd
44 crit
and no pierce or slash
he respecced out of it, so that kinda shows me that cd on its own is useless, and should nevere be taken over the actual spec of the main damage type
i currently have 42pierce and 19 cd
with +'s and rr's added in i do a decent amount of damage, and doubleswing quite often.
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old.m0000
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- #8
actually CD and LA is like comparing apples and oranges, since they're both fruit.
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old.Iunliten
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- #9
Humm a short short test indicated that only celtic dual styles give the haste effect... Haven't actually seen any true test that proves that it gives haste or doesn't give or which styles or anything.
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old.willowywicca
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- #10
far enough, I'm jsut giving the generally acknowledged belief of the US players regardn how it works.. I haven't personally tested myself, it's possible in thir tests they always used CD styles or something..
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Falcon
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- #11
If he'd gone for peirce instead of CS then the 50 CD would've served him fine, he'd have just been a different type of NS. Of course that specs gonna suck with no weapon spec but it's nothing whatsoever to do with celtic dual being at fault. I've gone from 16 to 24 to 34 CD and loved the increase every time on my ranger.
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Solid
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- #12
kr0n: LA does not HIT every round, it SWINGS every round.
Also LA starts at 100% Swing chance, 60% base damage per weapon and gains 0.5% base damage per spec.
CD starts at 100% Damage ~25% swing chance gaining at 0.5% chance per spec
klan: STYLE damage is based off mainhand delay for LA but swing speed is ALWAYS avg of the two delays.
and yes LA and CD are like comparing apples and oranges, seriously different in many ways.
For anyone speccing CD, just remember the ONLY two things you get from speccing CD is chance to double swing and CD Styles.
CD damage, variance and weaponskill for BOTH weapons comes from MAINHAND weaponspec NOT CD weaponspec.
Also LA starts at 100% Swing chance, 60% base damage per weapon and gains 0.5% base damage per spec.
CD starts at 100% Damage ~25% swing chance gaining at 0.5% chance per spec
klan: STYLE damage is based off mainhand delay for LA but swing speed is ALWAYS avg of the two delays.
and yes LA and CD are like comparing apples and oranges, seriously different in many ways.
For anyone speccing CD, just remember the ONLY two things you get from speccing CD is chance to double swing and CD Styles.
CD damage, variance and weaponskill for BOTH weapons comes from MAINHAND weaponspec NOT CD weaponspec.
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old.Kian
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- #13
I thought that's what I said for left axe - it's certainly what I meant
Willowywicca seems to think that applies to CD as well, at least on styled attacks... which doesn't jibe with what I've read on various forums or my own experience (but then, I've better things to do in combat than run a stopwatch!)
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old.Cher
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- #14
nah mal thinks that depending on which weapon you swing will be the chance of delay.
also, when not styling there is a 50% chance of using your lefthand weapon to attack with instead of your right hand weapon,.
also, when not styling there is a 50% chance of using your lefthand weapon to attack with instead of your right hand weapon,.
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old.willowywicca
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- #15
afaik that's only when the weapons are the same speed, if the offhand is faster than the main hand, you get a higher chance to swing with the offhand than the mainhand when unstyled.. I think
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YoungElf
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- #16
25% + (CD skill / 2)% = chance to swing offhand.. I wonder does that help / mix up everything
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YoungElf
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- #17
oh and I'm playing mainly on exc / hib.. so do forgive me about posting in this thread ^^
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old.willowywicca
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- #18
no, that's the chance to swing BOTH, not merely the offhand.
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Ebonn
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- #19
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old.Nikolas
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- #20
Im shade is spec'd 39 pierce 39 CS, 29 CD, 36 stealth, 36 envemom.
It’s been a great spec and I'm more than happy with it there are plenty of very nice CD styles that compliment pierce very well.
It’s been a great spec and I'm more than happy with it
there are plenty of very nice CD styles that compliment pierce very well.
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cougar-
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- #21
hah so fun when ppl try to play clever and are wrong
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kr0n
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- #22
This is easily tested. I'll just go and whack some MG doors. With 1 weapon. Then check with chat.log parser, what speed was I hitting with. For average. Then put on 2 weapons. If the average is less, it means it hits faster when I happen to hit with 2. Going to test now, bb later.
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kr0n
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- #23
SORRY MR, YOU SHOULD KNOW PEOPLE DO MISTAKES, LIKE HEAVY TYPOING OR USING WRONGS WORDS IN A FOREING LANGUAGE. Jesus I meant it swings with both every time, of course I know it doesnt HIT everytime... Sigh.
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kr0n
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- #24
Average swing delay with 1h.
3069ms
Average swing delay with 1h+1h.
2558
Weaponspeeds were 3.5 RH and 3.0 LH.
Haste effect with CD/DW works. Doesnt matter wheter you style, miss, get parried, blocked, evaded...
3069ms
Average swing delay with 1h+1h.
2558
Weaponspeeds were 3.5 RH and 3.0 LH.
Haste effect with CD/DW works. Doesnt matter wheter you style, miss, get parried, blocked, evaded...
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old.Kian
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- #25
Just to check... was the 1 weapon with the slower weapon, and were the dual weapon attacks styled (forcing it to use the RH weapon)? If you were swinging unstyled, and some attacks were with the fast weapon alone, it would be at the faster delay and would pull the average down even if there isn't a haste effect.
If all attacks were styled, that forces the slower weapon into every swing - THEN an average will show if there's a haste effect or not.
Good to see someone actually trying to test these things rather than relying on VNboard wisdom though (I should do these tests myself but I'm too lazy).
If all attacks were styled, that forces the slower weapon into every swing - THEN an average will show if there's a haste effect or not.
Good to see someone actually trying to test these things rather than relying on VNboard wisdom though (I should do these tests myself but I'm too lazy).
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sharon_corr
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- #26
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cougar-
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- #27
ty