New PC

[Killswitch]

Got an Xmas bonus from work and some very generous presents from family this year, so I'm thinking about a new PC for gaming. I've not actually looked at PC tech (GFX cards and CPUs and stuff) for about 4 years, so I'm totally out of touch. I've done some reading and I've put together a couple of possible systems. I don't want to waste money...do people think I'd actually get much better performance from the first system, when you consider it costs over twice as much as the second?

Top System (£1395)

Case - £50 - Coolermaster Centurion RC-532 Black Tower Case
PSU - £80 - 650W AKASA PowerPlus
Mobo - £150 - Asus P5N32 SLI Premium/WiFi-AP NF590
CPU - £200 - Intel Core 2 Duo E6600, Socket 775, 2.4 GHz
RAM - £170 - 2GB (2x1GB) CorsairTwinX XMS2
GFX1 - £200 - 512MB XFX 7950GT XXX
GFX2 - £200 - 512MB XFX 7950GT XXX
HDD - £300 - 2x150GB WD Raptor Enterprise
Opto1 - (DVD-ROM) £15 - Generic
Opto2 - (DVD+/-RW) £30 - Generic

Budget System (£675)

Case - £50 - Coolermaster Centurion RC-532 Black Tower Case
PSU - £60 - 480W Tagan TG480-U01
Mobo - £80 - ASUS M2N-SLI Deluxe NF570
CPU - £90 - AMD AM2 Athlon 64 3800+ Windsor Core, Dual Core 2GHz
RAM - £100 - 1GB (2x512MB) CorsairTwinX XMS2
GFX1 - £100 - 256MB XFX 7600GT XXX
GFX2 - £100 - 256MB XFX 7600GT XXX
HDD - £50 - 1x250GB Seagate Barracuda
Opto1 - (DVD-ROM) £15
Opto2 - (DVD+/-RW) £30

All the prices are taken from http://www.scan.co.uk/todayonly so I'm pretty sure I could shave a few pounds off here and there if I shopped around. Any help/comments will be gratefully recieved!!

EDIT: So you know...my last 2 gaming PCs have been cheap PC World computers with expensive GFX cards stuck in them!!! I'm a n00b...

 

[Darzil]

At the moment you'll get better performance for the money from one graphics card than two. For example, in the above, if 2 x 7600 is £200 and so is 1 x 7950, you'll find the performance on the latter superior. I believe the current bees knees is the 8800.

Personally I'd go for Core 2 Duo if poss, even if it's the lowest one. 2 Gb of Ram is nice these days. I'd not worry about dual raid unless you're really pushing the boat out (I did, and it's great to never have loading lag in DAoC, but it's not cheap).

Darzil

 

[Alan]

Was looking around too for a replacement PC, im just having problems doing something else at the same time as DAOC (such as vent or mp3's or web browsing)

Not sure what I'll do tho, but the Geforce 7950GT was tempting, maybe with a lower processor, the E6300 would do and could be upgraded later. (Maybe even a 7600GT if money was tight)

Still playing around with the figures today. I'll post later Any recomendations on motherboards guys ?

 

[Moaning Myrtle]

Scan is OK, but TBH I'd also compare prices with www.overclockers.co.uk - I've spent obsecene amounts there over the years. They generally have the latest and fastest items at the best prices.

They also have a good set of forums, the members are very knowledgeable, but the Mods can be Nazis TBH

I'd also look at the Dell XPS systems, we have a few at work and they are screamingly fast and very well put together. It'd also save you the heartache of trying to put something together yourself, only to find out one of your components was DOA and you need to wait two weeks for the RMA before you get to play!

Good luck!

 

[Killswitch]

After reading Darzil's comments, I had a look at another vendor (CCL here in Bradford/Leeds) to try to bring some of the component costs down a bit. I also looked at Toms Hardware to get an idea of what's the best Value-For-Money GFX to be buying nowadays. Came up with this, which uses a hellaciously-cheap motherboard (Danger! Danger! Will Robinson!) but comes in nice and cheap and would seem to cover just about everything.

Single GFX System (CCL Online) Budget

Case - CoolerMaster Centurion 534 Black - £39
PSU - 530W Hiper HPU-4M530 - £47
Mobo - ECS C19-A SLI - £51
CPU - Intel Core 2 Duo 1.86GHz - £124
RAM - 2GB OCZ Value DDR2 Dual Channel Kit - £145
GFX - 512MB Palit GeForce 7950GT - £170
HDD - 160GB Seagate Barracuda - £39
Opto1 - LiteOn LH-18A1H-487C Lightscribe DVD Writer - £30

Not sure about the Mobo or the GFX card...maybe too good to be true, given the prices. The rest of it looks alright though from what I can tell. CCL actually have some really good prices on some stuff...will have a look at Overclockers too.

 

[Killswitch]

Gawd...please ignore the above post as the "hellaciously cheap" mobo is also hellaciously old and doesn't support the new Core2 chips from Intel. I think if I'm going to do this, I might just go with the below setup...comes to £745 including VAT which I think is pretty reasonable and I can always add a second GFX card later if I want to go the SLI route. Thanks for the tips and advice everyone

Case - CoolerMaster Centurion 534 Black - £39
PSU - 530W Hiper HPU-4M530 - £47
Mobo - Foxconn 975X7AB-8EKRS2H - £121
CPU - Intel Core 2 Duo 1.86GHz - £124
RAM - 2GB OCZ Value DDR2 Dual Channel Kit - £145
GFX - 512MB XFX GeForce 7950GT XT Edition - £200
HDD - 160GB Seagate Barracuda - £39
Opto1 - LiteOn LH-18A1H-487C Lightscribe DVD Writer - £30

(all from CCL again)

 

[Alan]

Only thing I'd say if you going to spend 120 on a mobo, id go for a brand I've heard of ASUS/Gigabit etc - but like you i've been out of the PC loop for 3 years or so. Also memory has different speeds, make sure you know what your getting.

A super fast mobo with slow memory will work - but you may do better for an extra 20 quid.

 

[soze]

I just did a cheapish upgrade to the following for £460 ish

ASUS P5B Pentium 4/Celeron/Pentium D/PentiumEE/65nm Dual-core/Core2Duo/ Core2EE
Core 2 Duo E6400 2.13ghz - Skt775 Fsb1066 2mb Cache Boxed
Ebuyer 2GB Kit (2x1GB) DDR2 800MHz PC2-6400 240pin Extra Value Ram
Coolermaster Centurion 5 With Blue Trim - No PSU
Hiper 580W Type-R Modular PSU SLI/CrossFire Certified - Black with UV reactive cables

Stayed with my gfx card which is a Gainward BLISS GeForce 7800GT and i already had 3 250gb sata disks so left them.

I am impressed by the performance so far it got a 5.4 i think in the Vista score the lowest point was the processor

 

[Killswitch]

Only thing I'd say if you going to spend 120 on a mobo, id go for a brand I've heard of ASUS/Gigabit etc - but like you i've been out of the PC loop for 3 years or so. Also memory has different speeds, make sure you know what your getting.

A super fast mobo with slow memory will work - but you may do better for an extra 20 quid.

I've heard of FoxConn, but I couldn't tell you whether what I've heard was good or bad!!! The RAM kit in that price is for 800MHz DDR2 which I think is just about as fast as you can get.

What I might do, since the GFX card seems to be the hardest thing about all this, is buy everything except that and try it with my Radeon 850XT first and then maybe buy a new GFX card (or two!) later on...

 

[Alan]

Why not :-

http://www.cclonline.com/product-info.asp?product_id=9800&category_id=418&manufacturer_id=0

looks quite good.

 

[Ballard]

7950's arent the best gpu. The price may look attractive but when the rendering gets tough they struggle. They are particulary poor in SLI mode. Of the 7900 variants a 7900GTO will oc much faster, as unlike the 7950 the GTO is basically a 7900GT in disguise.

If you are spending 200 quid on a GPU the asus extreme 7900GT weighs in about that price and its a much faster card.

ocz ram is much better than that corsair shit so stick so with that. Although buying the value version will limit any OC'ing on the 6300. 6300's oc very well and you should be looking at 2.5 ghz without putting much extra temp on the core.

 

[Tesla Monkor]

Foxxcon is a very, very big Chine electronic manufacturer. They build mostly items for other companies to relabel. Like all the iPods currently on this planet. It's so big they have their own factory-city.

 

[Naffets]

foxconns premium range rox, their budget range are really bad tho.

so if you are spending a lot on a foxconn board it rocks generally.

 

[echome]

I just got:

Core 2 duo E6600 cpu
Asus P5B motherboard
2x1gb dual kingston ddr2 ram
radeon x1950pro gfx

And must say it is awesome... Went from p4 ht 3ghz, 1gb ddr1 ram, radeon 9800xt gfx.

Running BF2142 in 1280x1024 with all on max and no lag - 2xcata clients 1280x1024 all on max + fraps and vent or ts without lag... and can tab like i want to.

A new world for me:worthy:

 

[Szape]

7950's arent the best gpu. The price may look attractive but when the rendering gets tough they struggle. They are particulary poor in SLI mode. Of the 7900 variants a 7900GTO will oc much faster, as unlike the 7950 the GTO is basically a 7900GT in disguise.

If you are spending 200 quid on a GPU the asus extreme 7900GT weighs in about that price and its a much faster card.

7900GT Extreme = 7950GT, 7900GTX = 7900GTO.

x1950pro -> 7900GTO -> 8800GTS, pick the one you can afford.

 

[Chronictank]

I strongly suggest you get a good brand 600w+ PSU intead of going for the cheap option

 

[Szape]

I strongly suggest you get a good brand 350w+ PSU intead of going for the cheap option

fixed

 

[Chronictank]

fixed

and have to fork out for another one when he upgrades

350w is a joke nowdays and it will struggle, if work at all with a good mobo, and sli

I currently use
-DFI Infinity 975X (Socket 775) PCI-Express Motherboard
-Bios 13/09/2006
-Intel Core 2 DUO E6600 "LGA775 Conroe" 2.40GHz (1066FSB) @ 3.4 Ghz (Max Heat: 55oC, Idle: 35oC)
-Sythe Ninja Plus Heatpipe with AKSA Ultra Quiet 120mm fan
-GeIL 2GB (2x1GB) PC6400 800MHz Ultra Low Latency DDR2 Dual Channel Kit
-ATI Radeon X1950 XT-X ***Crossfire/Master Edition*** SILENT Heatpipe 512MB GDDR4 - Stock
-ATI Radeon X1950 SILENT Heatpipe 512MB GDDR4 - Stock
-OCZ GameXStream 700w Silent SLI Ready ATX2 Power Supply

 

[Szape]

and have to fork out for another one when he upgrades

350w is a joke nowdays and it will struggle, if work at all with a good mobo, and sli

I currently use
-DFI Infinity 975X (Socket 775) PCI-Express Motherboard
-Bios 13/09/2006
-Intel Core 2 DUO E6600 "LGA775 Conroe" 2.40GHz (1066FSB) @ 3.4 Ghz (Max Heat: 55oC, Idle: 35oC)
-Sythe Ninja Plus Heatpipe with AKSA Ultra Quiet 120mm fan
-GeIL 2GB (2x1GB) PC6400 800MHz Ultra Low Latency DDR2 Dual Channel Kit
-ATI Radeon X1950 XT-X ***Crossfire/Master Edition*** SILENT Heatpipe 512MB GDDR4 - Stock
-ATI Radeon X1950 SILENT Heatpipe 512MB GDDR4 - Stock
-OCZ GameXStream 700w Silent SLI Ready ATX2 Power Supply

how much do you reckon that setup uses?

 

[Chronictank]

how much do you reckon that setup uses?

No idea, but my previous Opteron 165 on a DFI Lanparty UT, with same gfx cards required 600w+
How do i know?
because a DFI Lanparty for the Socket 775 wont even boot reliably with less (this is well documented)

I fail to see why you highlighted that as it is obvious that is not the only fan in the case considering the rig i am running

But to put thing into perspective a Pentium 4 1.7Ghz office machine uses 110W on bootup, and 175W full load, this is single core

 

[Chronictank]

If you use some high performance memories, the loading will be increased automatically. Power delivery might be insufficient, chipset fan and CPU fan might not work. For stability and safety, an external power delivery is required at this time; please connect the 5V/12V power connector on-board (4-pin molex + 4-pin floppy connector). Power delivery will be sufficient. Further more, to ensure sufficient power could be provided; we highly recommend using a minimum 480 Watt power supply unit.

Source http://www.dfi-street.com/forum/showthread.php?t=597&highlight=recommended+power+supplies

This is from DFI themselves, the people who make the motherboards

Now please stop spouting nonsense until you can provide evidence that a high end gaming rig with 2 modern gfx cardsrunning a C2D on full load on can run on a 350w PSU for extended periods of time

 

[Szape]

No idea, but my previous Opteron 165 on a DFI Lanparty UT, with same gfx cards required 600w+
How do i know?
because a DFI Lanparty for the Socket 775 wont even boot reliably with less (this is well documented)

you would be very surprised by testing it out - your setup actually might peak at ~350w-400w. what you need is good 12v-rails, not huge amount of wats.

I fail to see why you highlighted that as it is obvious that is not the only fan in the case considering the rig i am running

naturally not the only fan but its still air cooling; you think you are actually cooling 600w with that setup? to make computer to reach 575w you need Core 2 Extreme QX6700 @ 4.1Ghz (vapochill) and watercooled overclocked 8800 GTX SLI. rig to reach world record in 06' mark, in finnish

https://forums.freddyshouse.com/showthread.php?t=207973 post #12. FX-62 has twice the tdp against e6600 btw.

 

[Szape]

But to put thing into perspective a Pentium 4 1.7Ghz office machine uses 110W on bootup, and 175W full load, this is single core

P4's are famous for producing tons of heat = they use lots of wats compared to their performance.

Now please stop spouting nonsense until you can provide evidence that a high end gaming rig with 2 modern gfx cardsrunning a C2D on full load on can run on a 350w PSU for extended periods of time

did on my last post but yeah, for sli/cf i would recommend going 430w+ but in no way i would recommend sli/cf to anyone; one fast card is better choice. oh, and thread starter is looking for avarage rig that i can see of, not high end.

 

[Chronictank]

you would be very surprised by testing it out - your setup actually might peak at ~350w-400w. what you need is good 12v-rails, not huge amount of wats.

I did actually try this with a old 350w from a older system, and i got constant cold boots and various other undervolting problems, therefore doesnt run reliably

naturally not the only fan but its still air cooling; you think you are actually cooling 600w with that setup?

Not at all, i do however realise the 2 Radeons use a hell of alot of power (subsequently pumping out more heat needing more cooling etc etc) which is what i was getting at

to make computer to reach 575w you need Core 2 Extreme QX6700 @ 4.1Ghz (vapochill) and watercooled overclocked 8800 GTX SLI.
rig to reach world record in 06' mark, in finnish

to me is says 350w is nowhere near adequete

Tämän yhdistelmän kanssa virtalähteeseen on syytä kiinnittää erityistä huomiota, sillä jo vakiokellotaajuuksilla kokoonpanon tehonkulutus on lähellä 500 wattia. Rankasti ylikellotettuna kokoonpanon tehonkulutus nousee jopa yli 600 wattiin.

No idea what that says, but i assume it says you need a power supply 500 - 600 w, re-affirming my post rather than disputing it.
Or are you saying that 225w came through overclocking?

https://forums.freddyshouse.com/showthread.php?t=207973 post #12. FX-62 has twice the tdp against e6600 btw.

Single card, the PSU is very likely maxed out, my original post said to get a descent psu to allow for expansion. So you still havent shown me a mediocre system running 2 cards & c2d reliably on 350w for extended periods of time. I didnt say you cant run any system on it, i said you couldnt run any DFI system on it (because you quoted my system specifically, where i know for a fact it falls over on 350w).

 

[Chronictank]

p.s
Im not flaming you if it comes across like that

 

[Szape]

I did actually try this with a old 350w from a older system, and i got constant cold boots and various other undervolting problems, therefore doesnt run reliably

means nothing - you can get device to test it for <£10 which i highly recommend.

to me is says 350w is nowhere near adequete

was the topic started looking for extreme rig?

No idea what that says, but i assume it says you need a power supply 500 - 600 w, re-affirming my post rather than disputing it.
Or are you saying that 225w came through overclocking?

1) it says that rig uses almost 500w without overclocking and maybe even over 600w with overclocking. 2) 4 cores on that cpu and overall an extreme setup. you claimed your old system used more which is bullshit.

Single card, the PSU is very likely maxed out, my original post said to get a descent psu to allow for expansion. So you still havent shown me a mediocre system running 2 cards & c2d reliably on 350w for extended periods of time. I didnt say you cant run any system on it, i said you couldnt run any DFI system on it (because you quoted my system specifically, where i know for a fact it falls over on 350w).

instead i digged a picture which has two cards with a cpu that has twice as big tdp as your e6600 to show wattage usage.

 

[Szape]

We had a total wattage peak at 365 Watts for one 8800 GTX, which is a lot but not excessive. It's definitely something you need to be aware of. NVIDIA states that the G80 core can peak at 145.5 Watts with 116.6 on average during gameplay. This system used a Core 2 Duo X6800 Extreme Processor, the new nForce 680i mainboard, water-cooler, DVD-ROM and WD Raptor drive. All that in combo with the GeForce 8800 GTX summed up to a peak load of roughly 365 Watts.

So here's my power supply recommendation for today.

The GeForce 8800 GTX requires you to have a 450 Watt power supply unit at minimum. More importantly than just staring yourself blind on 450+ Watts, you need a PSU with a total 30A rating on the 12 Volts rails.

If you have dough to spend and opt the guru path of righteousness by doubling up towards two cards in your system -> SLI, then you should end up with a 700 Watt or better PSU with a 40 AMPs 12 Volts (total) rail. And yes I agree, this is getting a little out of hand. As stated, we need to start thinking about mother nature a bit more, this increasing trend in power consumption can't continue.

BTW if you tend to overclock with such an SLI setup, then I strongly recommend a KiloWatt PSU. Not that's it's needed in the sense of using up a 1000 Watts, but it's because these PSU's have a lot of ampere to spare on the important voltage distribution rails. That results is stability, which is very important while overclocking. We use the Enermax Galaxy 1kW PSU (review here) which allows high over clocks while maintaining stable voltage regulation.

We did test GeForce 8800 GTX in SLI and power consumption peaked at roughly 475 Watts in a non-overclocked environment.

http://www.guru3d.com/article/Videocards/408/4/

Not that's it's needed in the sense of using up a 1000 Watts, but it's because these PSU's have a lot of ampere to spare on the important voltage distribution rails. That results is stability...

... quality 500-600w psu is enough but yet again this is extreme system.

 

[Chronictank]

means nothing - you can get device to test it for <£10 which i highly recommend.

Why would i buy one just to proove its better to spend the money now rather than buy 2+ psu's as you upgrade later?

was the topic started looking for extreme rig?

He was in his initial post, the subsequent ones were budget

1) it says that rig uses almost 500w without overclocking and maybe even over 600w with overclocking. 2) 4 cores on that cpu and overall an extreme setup. you claimed your old system used more which is bullshit.

Wrong, i said the minimum needed was 450Watts (which you still havent disproven imo), and they recommended 600Watts for a dual gfx card rig. This coming from the manufacturer of the motherboard rather than a random person doing short runs on a rig for reviews

 

[Szape]

Why would i buy one just to proove its better to spend the money now rather than buy 2+ psu's as you upgrade later?

its a nice tool overall with multiple uses.

He was in his initial post, the subsequent ones were budget

both rigs in starting post uses less power than fx62 with 7900gtx @ sli in the other fh-thread.

Wrong, i said the minimum needed was 450Watts (which you still havent disproven imo), and they recommended 600Watts for a dual gfx card rig.

you said your previous rig required 600w+.

This coming from the manufacturer of the motherboard rather than a random person doing short runs on a rig for reviews

start of finding out how much power mobos need - yup, next to nothing. what do mobos need? yup, stable rails. now, how on earth can mobo manufactorer's recommend of psu's have any value? they dont know which cpu/gfx-card(s) i'm using, do they?

~40mins of dual prime + atitool stresser -> 280w peak with; opteron 175 @ 3.1ghz (water) | dfi sli-dr (water) | 1gb utt (3.6v) | 8800gts | 5 hdds | 6 usb/fw devices | antec truepower 380w, leaving it running with recording to see does it get any higher and no, 350w isn't enough to run 8800gts @sli in this setup. 7900gt @ sli ran smooth and nicely and this isn't actually all that good psu (24a @ 12v :s). checking other compinations tomorrow if needed (e6400/6600/x2 3800+/oppy 175, asus commando/dfi sli-dr, 2x x1900xtx/2x 7900gt/8800gts, 380w truepower/500w m-12/600w s-12 with any compination that is possible). 8800gts @ sli has to wait for next week :|

impossible for me to convince you but if you are interested in this topic do some research of your own - you should find out that manufactorers wattage recommends are always way over the top and what really matters is good, stable rails. or even better do testing of your own ;p enough of this off-topiccing for me ;p

 

[Naffets]

impossible for me to convince you but if you are interested in this topic do some research of your own - you should find out that manufactorers wattage recommends are always way over the top and what really matters is good, stable rails. or even better do testing of your own ;p enough of this off-topiccing for me ;p

Not to butt in or anything...well actually, fuck it.

When did Chron ever say that a cheap 600w > a good 450w? One of the earliest quotes you did was him saying get a min of a good brand 350w.

Good brand to me = Antec, Thermaltake, Ultra-X, Hiper etc. All of which will have high rating rails and high efficiency (Most 85%+) and are all stable under high load.