New owner of Valory/Arysis/Tyrandes

[Javlar]

New "owner" is a scammer.. Just wanted to give you all a heads up on that. He changed subs etc about two months after selling it to me.. real cool.

Anyways i dont want to take up anyones time with this just wanted you to know this so that you think twice before you engage in a trade or smth with this acc and/or with him ingame. He is a scammer..

 

[Corell]

New "owner" is a scammer.. Just wanted to give you all a heads up on that. He changed subs etc about two months after selling it to me.. real cool.

Anyways i dont want to take up anyones time with this just wanted you to know this so that you think twice before you engage in a trade or smth with this acc and/or with him ingame. He is a scammer..

sad to hear about your loss, but thx for the warning. hopefully it wont evolve into more threads

 

[swords]

This is why trading accounts with people is against the rules.

 

[CjkaceBM]

This is why trading accounts with people is against the rules.

It would be interesting if someone challanged those rules, as most EULA wouldn't stand up to heavy scrutiny in court, and Mythic changed their stance on account selling.

I would guess that GOA instituted the rule as a way of saving cash. With this rule in place they don't have Customer Service issues with people who get ripped off.

 

[Phule_Gubben]

This is why trading accounts with people is against the rules.

Trading is at your own risk thou. So if u buy an account from an unknown person u should expect something like this to happen.

personally I'd never trade or buy a account from another person even if i know him/her IRL.

 

[Shneddi]

even if i know him/her IRL.

u must have some real sucky irl friends

 

[LordjOX]

sad to hear javlar

 

[Wot-do]

.

Sad to hear, atleast u still got cryptan.

 

[Javlar]

Sad to hear, atleast u still got cryptan.

Aye, im glad it was "only" my bb-acc

 

[Aybabtu]

One thing i don't get about these kinds of scamms....

When you take over the account then why don't you change the Email addy on the sub page then change the subs? afaik it can be done...

 

[vintervargen]

not anymore, since that made account trading very easy ;p

 

[Aybabtu]

My bad then

 

[CjkaceBM]

Some interesting links about account trading/selling.

http://money.cnn.com/2002/01/16/technology/column_gaming/

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/11.01/gaming.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/3135247.stm

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4596&item=8101425076&rd=1

It makes me wonder whether companies who stifle this activity are missing an opportunity to make more money, by creating their own secure auction/trading forums.

 

[Tallen]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4596&item=8101425076&rd=1

Rofl, is he allowed by law to make such a disclaimer i wonder?

$1,600+ for a SWG account, thats insane.

 

[CjkaceBM]

Well it's the same sort of legal disclaimer as is used in around 90% of software EULA.

 

[Tallen]

Disclaimer:
All characters, items and credits in Star Wars Galaxies: An Empire Divided are the sole property of SOE/Lucas Arts.This auction is not for the ownership of their intellectual property but it is merely for the time I spent acquiring the skills/credits and getting them to you. By bidding on this auction you are stating that you are in NO way affiliated with Sony Online Entertainment or Lucas Arts.
Star Wars Galaxies: An Empire Divided is a trademark of Lucasfilm Entertainment Company Ltd.
SOE is a registered trademark of Sony Online Entertainment.

Unless im reading this wrong its nonsensical.

He is saying in essence that he is not selling the property of SOE, which is actually exactly what he is doing as SOE reserve this right and in their EULA state emphatically that this is their property.

Unless im wrong you cannot legally sell invested time without something tangible (be it virtual or real) to show for it, he is selling SOE property for a profit, property that he does not own (even as the account holder, everything in-game belongs to SOE).

By my estimation, thats fraud and possibly theft.

But, like I say, i may be misinterpreting this whole issue.

 

[CjkaceBM]

How can it be fraud?

Whatever Sony or anyone else might say the account is his - he has paid for it, and played for it. Why shouldn't he be able to re-gain the cash (and profit) from the time invested?

One day these EULA's will be challenged and I'll bet defeated.

 

[Raven]

the account may be his, the disk space on soa's servers isnt, it says in the click yes/no bit that all online whatnots are the property of soa and not the client. in effect you are just renting them as when you stop paying your subs you stop playing your char

 

[Tallen]

How can it be fraud?

Whatever Sony or anyone else might say the account is his - he has paid for it, and played for it. Why shouldn't he be able to re-gain the cash (and profit) from the time invested?

One day these EULA's will be challenged and I'll bet defeated.

fraud

\Fraud\ (fr[add]d), n. [F. fraude, L. fraus, fraudis; prob. akin to Skr. dh[=u]rv to injure, dhv[.r] to cause to fall, and E. dull.] 1. Deception deliberately practiced with a view to gaining an unlawful or unfair advantage; artifice by which the right or interest of another is injured; injurious stratagem; deceit; trick.

2. (Law) An intentional perversion of truth for the purpose of obtaining some valuable thing or promise from another.

3. A trap or snare. [Obs.]

He is in effect selling something he doesnt own, it's like me selling you the Eiffel Tower (not the greatest example i admit), thats obtaining monies by deception and hence could be considered fraud.

As the EULA does state that everything in-game belongs to SOE, he doesn't own any of the characters he plays or items they hold, these belong to SOE, it's their property.

I'm not saying that i agree with mmorpg EULA's (in fact i disagree with a lot of their declarations) and I agree that if taken to court, few of them would stand-up (indeed it would be petty and small-minded to take a player to court for selling a mmog account, but consider the implications for those who are making a great deal of money doing so...the larger the scale, the bigger the crime).

 

[Tallen]

Bloody 10 minute edit limit, hit the post key too early, lots of poorly chose words

Not a dbl post, sry if it looks that way.

How can it be fraud?

Whatever Sony or anyone else might say the account is his - he has paid for it, and played for it. Why shouldn't he be able to re-gain the cash (and profit) from the time invested?

One day these EULA's will be challenged and I'll bet defeated.

fraud

\Fraud\ (fr[add]d), n. [F. fraude, L. fraus, fraudis; prob. akin to Skr. dh[=u]rv to injure, dhv[.r] to cause to fall, and E. dull.] 1. Deception deliberately practiced with a view to gaining an unlawful or unfair advantage; artifice by which the right or interest of another is injured; injurious stratagem; deceit; trick.

2. (Law) An intentional perversion of truth for the purpose of obtaining some valuable thing or promise from another.

3. A trap or snare. [Obs.]

He is in effect selling something he doesnt own, it's like me selling you the Eiffel Tower (not the greatest example i admit), that could be considered fraud (of a sort).

As the EULA does state that everything in-game belongs to SOE, he doesn't own any of the characters he plays or items they hold, these belong to SOE, it's their property. Hence they cannot be sold by anyone other than SOE.

The argument is as to whether selling an account is, in effect, selling the characters and items contained within, or if it is only the account itself that is for sale (i.e. selling 2 passwords for $1,600).

The problem here is that he advertises the account based on the characters and items (read, content) held within..this is the accounts intrinsic value, this is what he's advertising, this is what he's selling, this is what prospective buyers are purchasing, NOT the time he invested (if he adverised "20 months playtime for sale" no one would buy it..well...it is ebay, so maybe some nut would ).

I'm not saying that i agree with mmorpg EULA's (in fact i disagree with a lot of their declarations) and I agree that if taken to court, few of them would stand-up (indeed it would be petty and small-minded to take a player to court for selling a mmog account, but consider the implications for those who are making a great deal of money doing so...the larger the scale, the bigger the crime).

 

[CjkaceBM]

Ah so it would be ok to sell his account, and include the items for free as a gift?

ie

Selling Level 50 RR10 ML10 Blademaster - £100

If you buy the above I will include full Masterpiece armour, weapons and all the best items for free.

I agree that his wording makes it difficult for him as he is stating what items he has, but if he amended it to something like above, what then?

As it stands it is even against the rules to give your account away for free, which is patently ridiculous.

 

[CjkaceBM]

Also the fraud issue would dictate that by selling his account he is in someway causing 'injury' or 'artifice' to the business of Sony, when in fact he is helping it by

a - not cancelling and therefore keeping the subscription ongoing

and possibly

b - by buying another retail pack of Star Wars Galaxies with the intention of doing the same again, thereby gaining Sony another account.

Heres an interesting thought.

If you buy a PC game you have the legal right to re-sell the cds/box/manual, as long as you do not retain a copy. Therefore you must also have the legal right to sell the cds/box/manual for an online game. Because the CDs are tied to cd-keys and accounts it would logically follow that you are allowed to sell the account too?

So therefore the EULA is actually restricting you from your legal rights?

 

[nol]

EULA has already lost in America, that's why they changed it. It will lose again.

 

[Chosen]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4596&item=8101425076&rd=1

OMFG the price is at 5100$ now!!

 

[Urme the Legend]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4596&item=8101425076&rd=1

OMFG the price is at 5100$ now!!

Activating my SWG account again

 

[CjkaceBM]

If I were this guy I would remove the Buy It Now and drop the start bid, having seen that other account go for $5100.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4596&item=8102621606&rd=1

 

[Tallen]

Also the fraud issue would dictate that by selling his account he is in someway causing 'injury' or 'artifice' to the business of Sony, when in fact he is helping it by

a - not cancelling and therefore keeping the subscription ongoing

and possibly

b - by buying another retail pack of Star Wars Galaxies with the intention of doing the same again, thereby gaining Sony another account.

Heres an interesting thought.

If you buy a PC game you have the legal right to re-sell the cds/box/manual, as long as you do not retain a copy. Therefore you must also have the legal right to sell the cds/box/manual for an online game. Because the CDs are tied to cd-keys and accounts it would logically follow that you are allowed to sell the account too?

So therefore the EULA is actually restricting you from your legal rights?

The whole issue revolves around the in-game content, not the physical cd's/manuals/passwords.

Legally he can sell the physical items (although im not sure on the legalities of resale, i'll take your word for this ), but if he is using the metaphysical items/characters and their abilities in-game to do this then he is selling something that he doesnt own (as SOE have reserved this right that everything in-game is their property).

The issue of fraud is that he is selling something he doesnt own, if you buy a ticket to the London Eye, and sell this to another person thats fine. If however you sell this ticket and indicate that the recipient is buying ownership of the Eye (ownership of the characters) then it can be considered fraud as this is not his property to sell.
The intent exists as he has signed up to the EULA and it is therfore assumed that he has read the agreement and has intentionally flaunted it.

It's all a bit fragile really and im glad that, as Nol says, someone has actually challenged the EULA and won.

Common sense dictates that when you buy the game, you buy the account and it is yours to do with as you wish (your the consumer after all, with all the rights that this affords) and i would be interested to know if the EULA actually does impede the consumers legal rights. I'm guessing that as it's an optional licence (you dont have to agree to it after all) by agreeing you wave all your rights on this issue.

Interesting discussion nevertheless.

 

[CjkaceBM]

TBH I've never actally read the DAoC EULA (until today) and I noticed some odd little things.

4. Information regarding the Account

* The Publisher wishes to bring it to your attention that Accounts are accessible only to persons of legal age and, solely under the supervision of such persons, to any of their children under the age of 18. If you are a minor, your parents, guardians or legal carers must complete the registration procedure, whereby they must take all responsibility concerning the obligations set forth in this EULA.

* BY CLICKING THE "I ACCEPT" BUTTON AND PROVIDING US WITH A CREDIT CARD NUMBER, YOU DECLARE YOURSELF TO BE OF LEGAL AGE AND IN AGREEMENT WITH THE TERMS OF THIS EULA EITHER ON YOUR OWN BEHALF OR ON BEHALF OF YOUR CHILDREN UNDER THE AGE OF 18. You may not transfer or share your Account with anyone, unless, as a parent or legal guardian, you allow your child to use it. You are responsible for the use of your Account, and parents or legal guardians are responsible for their children's actions. No artificial person or commercial company may establish an Account, unless this is by express agreement with the Publisher of the Expansion Pack.

The way I read and understand that is if you are under 18 then your parents must create the account AND click the I accept button, otherwise it violates the EULA!! I wonder how many under 18s playing this game are doing so against the EULA?

**

In the event that you refuse to accept the terms of the EULA, you may neither install nor play the Expansion. Each time you access the Expansion, you will be deemed to have accepted the terms of this EULA. If you have any questions regarding the terms or conditions of this EULA, you may contact us at faq.camelot-europe.com.

Erm you have to install the game to read the EULA, thereby breaking it the moment you put the CD in and click install.

**

Advice to users

We strongly advise you never to give personal information that could be used to identify you (social security number, telephone number, home address, etc.) to anyone you do not know.

GOA reserves the right to modify this Charter at any time and without prior notice. By accepting this Charter, you also accept the changes that may be made to it. We advise you to come and consult the Charter regularly to see if changes have been made, as it is frequently revised with the aim of encouraging convivial behaviour on the site.

So by clicking accept not only do I accept the EULA as it stands, but I also accept it if it is changed in the future. RIGHT!!!

 

[Spankya]

it's like me selling you the Eiffel Tower

I'll buy it!! How much do u want for it?? And can u deliver it to my house?

 

[Tallen]

I'll buy it!! How much do u want for it?? And can u deliver it to my house?

10p

Yes I can deliver