Nationalism & Xenophobia

[rynnor]

Can you have one without the other?

The depressing thing is how easily the masses are conned and swayed by nationalistic nonsense - you can see in vivid detail exactly how easy it was for the Nazi party to rise up by using national identity and unity.

Humanity is deeply flawed - the majority will follow like sheep and the minorities are forced out and persecuted.

 

[Raven]

Yes you can have one without the other. Being proud to be British does not mean you are a xonophobe.

 

[Everz]

It happens..

IT'S ALL ABOUT THE CULTURE WE ARE LOSING DONT CHA KNOW?!

...

 

[Raven]

er. not quite.

 

[rynnor]

Yes you can have one without the other. Being proud to be British does not mean you are a xonophobe.

I disagree - nationalism always has a chunk of 'our culture is best' xenophobia attached as far as I can see.

 

[Overdriven]

I think you can have one without the other (Take this weekend for example) - 50-60% of all families (Who are royalists) will be doing street parties to celebrate HRM's time on the throne, which is a nice nationalism idea. It'll be the few percentile of c**** who'll probably take it to the extreme though.

 

[Raven]

I disagree - nationalism always has a chunk of 'our culture is best' xenophobia attached as far as I can see.

Not always. Only in the really badly written papers.

 

[Raven]

...anyway, culture is a fluid thing. There is no such thing as a truly British culture, everything is imported from somewhere.

Which is what makes it something to be proud of, one of the few truly global cultures where (Despite what the OP thinks) you can be both proud to be British and not be a racist cock-end.

 

[Everz]

Should have made the point clearly. Proud to be British but not shoving it down my throat about other cultures taking over etc etc.. that is partly xenophobic that becomes associated with it.

Proud but accepting of all cultures and traditions.

 

[Aoami]

It seems to me to be very much a British thing. You don't see other countries worry about being called xenophobic for being nationalistic. Something put in place by Imperial guilt perhaps?

 

[Moriath]

National pride is second only to religion in creating wars and death ... discuss

 

[Raven]

It seems to me to be very much a British thing. You don't see other countries worry about being called xenophobic for being nationalistic. Something put in place by Imperial guilt perhaps?

I think this is it really. The hand wringers need something to blame our past on (as a nation, we have done huge amount of good things in the past, as well as the dickish things) but which country hasn't?

 

[Cerb]

I think they can absoloutely exist independently of each other. Irish people are fiercely proud of being Irish, but that has nothing to do with liking or disliking other cultures.

On the colonial guilt thing. Some terrible things happened in Ireland I won't disagree with that, but bad things happen all over the world. I think even the biggest misinformed RA head knows, deep down in his heart of hearts, that if Ireland had been in the same position as Britain way back when, we probably wouldn't have done much different. The problem is people.

 

[SilverHood]

There are only two things the British hate: Foreigners and Racism.

Clarkson jokes aside, what seems to have happened over the last 15 or so years, is that the main stream media almost exclusively portray "nationalism" as something bad, evil or xenophobic, something that is to be discouraged by means of mass media propaganda and social stigma. So what we've ended up with is a culture where being proud of your heritage, origins and accomplishments marks you out as a nationalist, and consequently, a vile racist who needs to be re-educated or beaten up.

What Rynnor is missing from his post is the word "multiculturalism", our political elites replacement for the nation state. As David Cameron said though, it has failed, and failed miserably. By lifting up all cultures as equal and worthy, combined with the British trait of not wanting to offend, Blair and Brown have managed to make the British tradition second class in its own country. Heavens forbid we offend someone, even if their customs are barbaric and vile. Instead they should instead be celebrated and appeased.

Until recently, all 3 major parties supported the multicultural way. As a voter in a democratic country with a first past the post system, your vote is thus rendered meaningless.
Add in the creeping power grab from Brussels, where unelected officials are now making up laws that will get you sent to prison, and you end up with a large group of disenfranchised voters, whose lack of ability to change the direction of the country they live in cause them to focus on the most obvious and visual part of the problem in their society, such as immigrants and foreigners, while at the same time embracing all that is not multicultural... hence the patriotism and nationalistic behavior.

As for the association between nationalism and xenophobia, it exists outside the UK too, at least in political manifestations - Dansk Folkeparti in Denmark, Sverige Demokraterne in Sweden, Freedom party in the Netherlands, I'm sure there are others. They are for the most part fringe and protest vote parties, but most are growing steadily. Now what do those countries have in common with the UK? Failed multiculturalism, a highly centralised government, and most importantly, voters whose voice are not being heard by the main stream parties.

That said, there will always be xenophobes, who for whatever reason hate people of other cultures, religions and races. Haters gonna hate. Best you can do is educate and legislate. As for nationalism existing peacefully, the Irish are a fairly decent example. I like the US of A though. You can be from anywhere, believe in anything, as long as you are there legally and you work hard, most people will not care.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Yes you can easily have one without the other. It goes hand in hand to be a judgemental c*nt when you're british though

There's a difference

 

[TdC]

Add in the creeping power grab from Brussels, where unelected officials are now making up laws that will get you sent to prison

looool

As for the association between nationalism and xenophobia, it exists outside the UK too, at least in political manifestations - Dansk Folkeparti in Denmark, Sverige Demokraterne in Sweden, Freedom party in the Netherlands,

yup, and I'm actually glad the blond fucktard is in the chamber. even though his idiocy is costing the state, and thus the taxpayer, a shitload of cash. you know why? because he keeps the other fuckers on their toes.

I like the US of A though. You can be from anywhere, believe in anything, as long as you are there legally and you work hard, most people will not care.

oh yeah? with respect, I have heard rather different. tbh and imo, as long as people are people and there is some kind of social divide, there will be people who don't agree and hatemonger. he's black, she's a lesbian, that guy doesn't believe in a white, english speaking baby jeebus, that dude has red hair, she has brown eyes, those guys have a mine which produces cheese whereas ours doesn't, but it's our right to have a cheese mine also.

 

[rynnor]

I still remember the national mood during the Falklands war - it got very jingoistic very quickly and I dont think I will ever be comfortable with any form of nationalism ever again.

Fundamentally Nationalism unites by defining group and out-group and thats the source of most things that are wrong in the world.

 

[Punishment]

I love my country and i will celebrate it, if imigrants don't like it then fuck off home.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Humanity is deeply flawed - the majority will follow like sheep and the minorities are forced out and persecuted.

I think humanity is only flawed by the random rules and regulations humans have invented themselves.

By nature, humanity is quite successful.

 

[rynnor]

I think humanity is only flawed by the random rules and regulations humans have invented themselves.

By nature, humanity is quite successful.

As animals we are sucessfull but as a sentient species we have a lot of baggage.

 

[old.Tohtori]

As animals we are sucessfull but as a sentient species we have a lot of baggage.

Without any comparison, how would we know?

 

[DaGaffer]

I think they can absoloutely exist independently of each other. Irish people are fiercely proud of being Irish, but that has nothing to do with liking or disliking other cultures.

On the colonial guilt thing. Some terrible things happened in Ireland I won't disagree with that, but bad things happen all over the world. I think even the biggest misinformed RA head knows, deep down in his heart of hearts, that if Ireland had been in the same position as Britain way back when, we probably wouldn't have done much different. The problem is people.

No, you get that thrown in for free . Terrible racists the Irish. Sorry, but I've been appalled by the levels of casual racism in this country.

 

[Ormorof]

I have to agree with TdC, while i totally disagree with their policies, the fact that they are there at all and that anyone is voting for them shows how out of touch the "mainstream" politicians are these days - they promise lots, very rarely deliver, then promise it again, and screw us again so its nice to have people rocking the boat, forcing the politicians to actually pay attention to something other than their gravy train expense accounts

we are living in a culture (more prominent in northern europe and UK) where frankly we are terrified of offending anyone and anyone who is offended is always right (see the whole sexism in video games from the BBC thingy)

colonial guilt may explain "some" of it, but why would a country like Finland feel colonial guilt? they spent much of their last 1000 years under the thumb of one empire or another

same goes for a lot of smaller european states tbh

 

[Cerb]

No, you get that thrown in for free . Terrible racists the Irish. Sorry, but I've been appalled by the levels of casual racism in this country.

I agree there is a lot of racism in Ireland. But I don't think it comes out of any kindof nationalism.

 

[Job]

We are all intrinsically racist and xenophobic, some try to rise above it on intellectual grounds and some simply hide it from view, not liking people who are not like us was bred into us millions of years ago as a useful defence mechanism, believing in multicultarisn is rose tinted glasses on a socialist teddy bear.
It's a lovely thought..like Noddy and the teletubbies, but it is not our natural way of living and one culture will prevail..as it always has and it might well get nasty.
So many roads to disaster are paved with good intentions.

 

[Cerb]

Job, do you know what has set us apart from animals and raised us to the very top of the food chain?

Not giving in to those urges you say prevent our 'natural' way of living.

You think your racism is ok, but don't you fucking dare tar us all with your brush.

 

[mr.Blacky]

Job, do you know what has set us apart from animals and raised us to the very top of the food chain?

Not giving in to those urges you say prevent our 'natural' way of living.

You think your racism is ok, but don't you fucking dare tar us all with your brush.

Both of you are wrong. What set humans to the top of the food chain is xenophobia. Better tools to kill other humans ment better tools to kill animals.
Look at the human history, war everywhere.
But we are not intrinsically racist and xenophobic, after all we could still be using bio/viral/nukes in our war cause what would we care if some other group of humans died.

 

[Job]

I was going to reply with your first sentence, but I'm not wrong, we don't care about other people dying, we are utterly indifferent to the suffering of millions in wars we have often started. Everyone goes aaahh, when some fly infested African kid is shown on tv and we might reach for the phone to donate 2 quid, but we don't even want the news to show us the death we have rained down on innocents in case in frightens the kids.
They scrape up the body parts and scrub away the blood so we can feel good about ourselves.
AND IT'S ALL BECAUSE THEY ARE FOREIGNERS..BROWN PEOPLE WHO DON'T MATTER AS MUCH!
And for the mentally challenged, that's not my opinion, just an observation of the truth.

 

[Punishment]

I would bang the poo out of Rihanna therefore i am in no way racist

 

[Tom]

I like the US of A though. You can be from anywhere, believe in anything, as long as you are there legally and you work hard, most people will not care.

Unless of course you're from the Middle East or are an atheist.