Midgard RvR TL Report

[Skilgannon]

Don't know whether this has been posted before but I found it very accurate. Although written from a Midgard perspective it sums up current RvR fairly well across the realms. As the RvR TLs were established to provide specific feedback we can only hope Mythic are paying attention.

http://vnboards.ign.com/message.asp?topic=65264635

 

[anubis]

water water water
just one direct issue -- multiple charges potions

 

[Dorin]

dunno how can mythic address the gankgrps > pickup grps problem... ppl who play together on daily/weekly basis will allways outperform a pickup grp and no ML whatsoever will change that.... That happens in all team-based games imo, a small grp of ppl can be victorious over twice of their numbers easily if they play together a lot, get the best equipment (be it ingame, or hardware based like in CS), take teamplay to a next lvl compared to the casual player and the opponent is just a random team. IMO.
Bout class Desirability... it should be solved like the 4 character slots, make grps 10 or 12 slot based, not 8 as it is now... if needed, make only Rogue - Caster slots or i dunno... speaking for myself i would take a rogue if the lets say 9th spot could be only a stealther.

 

[Z^^]

dunno how can mythic address the gankgrps > pickup grps problem...

how is this a problem?

 

[Skilgannon]

how is this a problem?

For many it is.

For Mythic, it will become a problem once it starts affecting the bottom line. And there is one thing that is irrefutable, if something even whiffs of reducing the playerbase then it will eradicated with shock and awe. Mythic are no different to any company striving to maintain cashflow and impress stockholders. It is the reason ToA uber items were nerfed.

If the playerbase starts declining and an analyst somewhere in Mythic states that it is because casual players cannot compete, then a patch that removes gank groups will hit asap.

Gank groups don't pay the shareholders, casual players do.

 

[Flimgoblin]

part of a solution would be:

More RP for killing higher RR opponents
less RP for killing lower RR opponents

 

[Killerbee]

part of a solution would be:

More RP for killing higher RR opponents
less RP for killing lower RR opponents

I think it would be hard to count the exact rps if your grp has wide range of RRs (ie. RR3-RR9).

 

[Killerbee]

The slot method wouldn't be bad (caster slots etc), but it's still not a solution, in albion case you just put sorc and theu in the caster slots and other casters stay there without grp.

 

[Asha]

why, they have no problem calculating exp when you pull 10 mobs in different lvl ranges - or if you kill an enemy group with different lvl ppl for example
However, I think this is a bad bad idea. It would be like being on a pvp server and running through a town at lvl 40 - you would get 40 grey cons attacking you. Instead of Albion crap zerg cg, we would have Albion crap zerg the fuck out of NP/JH cg. It just encourages zerging to the nth degree.
Some ppl are better than others; they shouldn't be penalized for that. Some ppl put effort into groups; they shouldn't be penalized for that. Some people put time and effort into their chars; they shouldn’t be penalized for that.
If you can’t beat a “gank group”, then run in 1.5fg or 2fg – but you don’t deserve a reward for that.

uke:

 

[Konah]

part of a solution would be:

More RP for killing higher RR opponents
less RP for killing lower RR opponents

agree with this tbh, if u do succeed in killing an rr10-11 grp u should be rewarded. at the moment the 50-100rps more u get per head (divided between the grp ) is a piss-take tbh.

hi rr players should have a price on thier heads

say: worth 10% more rps for every rr over rr5, 10% less for every rr below rr5 and rr5 = 1000rps, sorted.

 

[Skilgannon]

One idea that has been put about is the introduction of negative modifiers for having multiple instances of the same class in a group i.e. if you run with 1 healer all is well, 2 healers and the healers take a penalty to all abilties/stats. Run with 3 and severe handicap. The idea is to limit the effect of FoTM classes.

Immediate issue with this is the disparagy in number of classes between the realms. Easier for Albion to field 8 separate classes.

I don't like the idea personally, and doubt it would happen. I think it far more likely an introduction of things such as guard patrols increased in number, speed, aggro range and particularly con.

 

[Asha]

that is hardly fair to midgard where main cc and main healer are the same class

 

[Killerbee]

why, they have no problem calculating exp when you pull 10 mobs in different lvl ranges - or if you kill an enemy group with different lvl ppl for example

Hmm, yep, true. You get different rps as well at different lvls (not sure tho any diff between 48-50 tho), but at same lvl all rr get the same rps, so they should recode that part what I dont think they ever will do.

 

[Killerbee]

that is hardly fair to midgard where main cc and main healer are the same class

Beside that it wouldnt be fair again. It doesnt let you make a gimp 8 thanes/healesr/paladins/whatever fun grp as well just with uber penalties.

 

[Antedeluvian]

This:

One idea that has been put about is the introduction of negative modifiers for having multiple instances of the same class in a group i.e. if you run with 1 healer all is well, 2 healers and the healers take a penalty to all abilties/stats. Run with 3 and severe handicap. The idea is to limit the effect of FoTM classes.

Immediate issue with this is the disparagy in number of classes between the realms. Easier for Albion to field 8 separate classes.

I don't like the idea personally, and doubt it would happen. I think it far more likely an introduction of things such as guard patrols increased in number, speed, aggro range and particularly con.

And this:

part of a solution would be:

More RP for killing higher RR opponents
less RP for killing lower RR opponents

Two of the best ideas i ever seen to equilibrate game and kill the fotm fenomenon.

 

[Asha]

Two of the best ideas i ever seen to equilibrate game and kill the fotm fenomenon.

it really wouldn't
you would still get less rps for zerging than a "gank group" because they fight other gank groups and are far more likely to kill them and get far more RPs per person.

you would still have fotm groups - they would just look different. And in Albion atm we don't even run with more than 2 of anything - SO FOTM isn't it? Albion doesn't need a boost, which is what some kind of limit would be.

I would still take a cleric with some reduced stats over a friar. I would still take a det tank with lower stats than a non-det tank.

And if, somehow, the zergs got to be too much, then "gank groups" could just run in 2fg and you'd be back where you started. Or worse because their Mlevels and artifacts are going to effect more than just their group.

The way to balance the classes IN realm is to fix det. Or to make a new "fotm" group yourself - their are Alb caster groups that do ok. There are hib tank groups that do ok. I don't know why mids don't try more caster set ups, but maybe they will since savages are slightly nerfed.

Why do ppl think zerging is the better way to play? It's utterly boring. I don't understand it. I would rather do just about anything but.

BTW - Mythic did address high/low RR somewhat by making the returns less and less on RPs. The gap between the amount of RPs needed for one RA point grows and grows and the RAs become more and more expensive. Also there is a limit to how many RPs you can get. This is why good rr5 or 6 players can beat rr10 players often.

You won't get around the fact that some people play more than others, some people play better than others, some people play to have fun as a group char and not as uber aoe fire wizzie/2h paladin/smite cleric/thane. You are never going to balance every spec line of every char with every spec line of every other char. If you want a game where you can just log in and play and be equal to everyone else, this isn't the game for you.

 

[Kagato]

Theres only a couple of differances between a 'gank-group' and a typical group, and thats perfect class selection and Realm Rank or Skill level depending on your opinions regarding daoc and skill.

By balancing the classes more you have countered half the problem already, if several different tank classes can do the job and bring just as much benefit to the group less players will be left out and the pick up groups will have a better chance. Groups will have more options, deciding on a perfect template will not be so easy or cookie-cutter anymore and everyone will have something to offer.

Of cause a key part to this balancing is Detirmination, but this needs to be dealt with in such a way that the game does not return to the old days of casterlot when tanks were just cannon-fodder, for those that still remember those days.

If Mythic would stop arsing about and give players what they want, i.e balance RvR would be in a much better state.

 

[censi]

not much substance and not much realm specific issues.

 

[Fana]

Theres only a couple of differances between a 'gank-group' and a typical group, and thats perfect class selection and Realm Rank or Skill level depending on your opinions regarding daoc and skill.

The real difference isnt perfect class selection or realm rank: it is that Gank Groups play alot with each other. They function as a single entity and know exactly what to do, when to do it, and what the others in their group will do.
Also, voicecom helps immensely.

 

[Skilgannon]

that is hardly fair to midgard where main cc and main healer are the same class

Totally irrevalent tbh

Easy enough to have CC in a couple of the groups and healers in another few. MLs ensure all are covered

It would be relevent if Mythic produced a fg vs fg game, but they didn't and aren't. Mythic don't give a damn about class balance and why should they? Realm balance is the goal.

Matters of balance, and what is balance, are largely secondary to the issue. Many people still don't get the harsh reality of what governs the future of games like this. It is money, pure and simple. Anyone who thinks that the small minority who play alot matter in the greater scheme of things are deluded.

Consider MLs, artifact effects and the snippets gleamed from the MF interviews (and the gaffes from the Infil TL before they were hastily pulled) and it is clear where Frontiers is going. Frontiers is Mythics last real chance to ensure the game caters for the majority before other big titles hit the shelves. What the Mid TL said in his report was fairly accurate, and it does need addressing.

 

[Kalba]

It would be relevent if Mythic produced a fg vs fg game, but they didn't and aren't. Mythic don't give a damn about class balance and why should they? Realm balance is the goal.

Realm balance comes through class balance my friend.

 

[Asha]

Easy enough to have CC in a couple of the groups and healers in another few. MLs ensure all are covered

couple? another few? I give up.
you're living in a dream world.
frontiers, mlvls, artifacts... there will still be people who enjoy playing fg vs fg for the fun of it and max thier group/char to get the most out of it... deal with it.

 

[Kagato]

The real difference isnt perfect class selection or realm rank: it is that Gank Groups play alot with each other. They function as a single entity and know exactly what to do, when to do it, and what the others in their group will do.
Also, voicecom helps immensely.

I disagree im afraid, sure groups that play regular together will run smoother and might react a fraction of a second faster, but most people still playing this game have been doing it for awhile, /assist is not exactly rocket science, so long as the MA knows what he is doing a pick-up group with half and ounce of common sense will be able to fair well if classes were truely balanced as they should be.
Sure theres still plenty of noobs about but most of the population know how to play there characters and the basics of rvr and how to assist. Gank-groups may well still out perform an identical non-regular groups but the differance is not huge, the game is more knowledge based then skill based.

And Oi ! Kalba !, whats with quoting me in your sig?

 

[Fana]

I disagree im afraid, sure groups that play regular together will run smoother and might react a fraction of a second faster, but most people still playing this game have been doing it for awhile, /assist is not exactly rocket science, so long as the MA knows what he is doing a pick-up group with half and ounce of common sense will be able to fair well if classes were truely balanced as they should be.
Sure theres still plenty of noobs about but most of the population know how to play there characters and the basics of rvr and how to assist. Gank-groups may well still out perform an identical non-regular groups but the differance is not huge, the game is more knowledge based then skill based.

Assist may be well and good in most pickup grps, but the occasions when other stuff works well are few and far between imo. Guarding healers and peeling tanks off them etc seldom happens in a random grp in my experience (warriors often beeing passed on in preference of another light tank in midgard), same with who interupts whom on the enemy side, power management and healing economy etc. There is alot more than just /assist that makes a good grp.

 

[Driwen]

Theres only a couple of differances between a 'gank-group' and a typical group, and thats perfect class selection and Realm Rank or Skill level depending on your opinions regarding daoc and skill.

also having good equipment(/ml's) matters. Making items with that are hard to get, but give a high boost in fights, means that the pick up groups (formed out of regular players) will have less of these items and then besides RR will have another reason why the gank group beats them.
SC'ing was imo for the regular players a blessing, as it meant that the difference between players equipment was less. However with SI there were good PvE items, but it wasnt the same as you having 10% resists max vs 20% minimum(which was probably possible pre SC).

The only way to balance the gank group vs pickup group, if you want to keep fg vs fg as an option. Is by balancing the reward you get from putting more time in getting RR's (which lead to RA's) and PvE (for ml's/equipment).
An other way to counter it, is by adding the "radar" thing in frontiers I think. Allthough I have no idea how RvR will be like after the frontier expansion, I do think that there might be more zerg fights, which is usually fun for the regular player (if the persons pc can handle it).

 

[Vodkafairy]

It would be relevent if Mythic produced a fg vs fg game, but they didn't and aren't. Mythic don't give a damn about class balance and why should they? Realm balance is the goal.

I think Mythic succeeded quite well in making a fg vs fg game, they're pretty close to "balancing" the entire thing, shame they're going to put in the radar thingy in frontiers :/

I think focus shell is pretty much a fg vs fg kinda thing, how often do you see "the entire midgardian army" or whatever assisting on one target? I havn't ever seen that

And not giving a damn about class balance is stupid, because why put in the class in the first place then. If they're going to keep a class deliberately underpowered then they can at least fix their info before players invest alot of time in making one.

 

[Divinia]

RvR Issues: Endurance Regeneration
This issue has still seen no changes or improvements, but has a strong impact on RvR for Midgard. Most Midgard players have a desire to see a more balanced solution for End Regen provided to them – one that is perhaps not so powerful in some areas, yet not so weak in others. The specific weakness that needs to be addressed is what occurs when a Shaman dies early in a battle, then is resurrected – it is incredibly hard for the primary buffing class to rebuff all group members after being rezzed in-combat, thus making target prioritization of the Shaman far more effective than it is against other realms’ end-regen providers. A balance between these extremes is very much desired – trading some of the pre-death effectiveness for the ability to get end-regen back to the group after death.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

 

[Flimgoblin]

There have been fights where we've been gubbed due to not being organised. In pickup groups they're really quite often.

In HG guild groups (when we actually have two clerics for example ) there are cases where we've been out-fotmed - e.g. lack of determination has killed us or whatever.

But I've been in a few fights where I've gone "hrm we got out-RRed" - MoC combined with Purge has won the fight or whatever...

getting 2fg to beat a fotm group is all well and good - but if ye lose they get double the RP you do...

Balancing RAs so they're less "vertical" - i.e. higher RR just means you get more situational tricks to use or small improvements in things like parry/block will help the "fotm versus not" - lengthening fights, moving them to keeps and whatnot will help make it "fun" despite the fotmness (e.g. gank group X can take a tower easier but there's more situations to deal with hopefully so a mix of classes or hybrids will be better overall)

Killing Det would be nice
(last night I hit stun, smite - I was buffbot buffed so my cast time was pretty fast - 1.5s? the stun landed on a tank, he slammed me before the smite hit... ouch )

 

[Skilgannon]

And not giving a damn about class balance is stupid, because why put in the class in the first place then. If they're going to keep a class deliberately underpowered then they can at least fix their info before players invest alot of time in making one.

It is not a question of keeping a class underpowered. It is a case of not caring whether one class is perfectly matched against another, because that is not the way the game is designed. The game is designed, like it or not, around the tools being available to the Realm, not every group.

But that is a diversion. The real question is one of disparagy in end game RvR.

The reason I feel so strongly about this is because i love this game and want it to continue, but recently had my eyes opened as to how the game appears now to totally new players. My brother and his wife, both avid and experienced gamers, bought the game and rolled their chars. They loved it. Levelling isn't a chore now as it used to be, even for new chars.

Hit RvR and they quit. They quit simply because of the disparagy that exists in RvR. It is easy for twinked alts of established players to slot in, but for new players the game is quickly becoming inaccessible. After being rolled over and over, they asked if they could join me in RvR. Selfishly, in hindsight, they couldn't because I was in a fixed RvR group who's fun was measured in how many low RRs we could roll in an evening. Sure, the odd fair fight came up, but lets not bullshit about this. Gank groups feed on low RR players. They don't spend their evening rushing from fair fight to fair fight.

There is a finite number of accounts people are prepared to buy, and so the future of the game, i.e. keeping investors satisfied enough to not pull the plug, is from new players. Unless RvR at 50 is made accessible to new players they just simply won't be attracted to the game.

The problem is, how do you make the end game accessible to new players?

 

[Killerbee]

The problem is, how do you make the end game accessible to new players?

Hmm? We've gone out to RvR with rr2 grp as well so we counted as new players I think (half of the grp hadnt got sc due to ToA) so I dunno what problems are you referring tbh.