LA/DW/CD Site, long but worth a read

[Aeiedil]

http://pete.waterman.net/daoc/Dual-Wield.html

give this a read, imo it makes good sense, any comments?

 

[katt!]

nerf la

 

[Gekul]

To say endurance regen is irrelevant is ridiculous imo.

 

[Trinilim]

very techinical description, and it all works on paper, but saying that the DPS of DW/CD and LA are the same is absolutely absurd.

And what Gekul said, end regen is of TREMENDOUS relevancy.

 

[Puppetmistress]

Originally posted by Gekul
To say endurance regen is irrelevant is ridiculous imo.

Is this about Endurance Regen? No, in fact Endurance Regen is mostly unrelated – the only style in the Left Axe which takes a large amount of endurance is Doublefrost. Endurance regen is merely a side issue – even in a world where no endurance regen existed, LA would outdamage CD/DW by a large margin over time, and 2H weapons by even more, assuming appropriate styles were used.


Meaning even WITHOUT end-regen LA does alot more dmg then DW/CD over time.

Both Hib and Alb have access to end-regen too, so Mid deserves that too.

I think they should give it to the thane, as group-chant

 

[brommix]

very interesting reading

 

[Karlo]

Well worth a read

 

[Tasans]

Originally posted by Puppetmistress

I think they should give it to the thane, as group-chant

I dont want it. Stop saying the same thing in every thread.

 

[old.Reno]

He states that CD users hit with their main weapon every time, afaik CD has a chance of using main hand weapon off hand weapon or both.
If I'm correct his conclusion that unstyled, CD and LA (at equal level of trains with same similar weapons) have the same DPS over time is probably incorrect, giving LA a slight edge damagewise for unstyled hits.

Danita

 

[dakeyras]

Originally posted by old.Reno
If I'm correct his conclusion that unstyled, CD and LA (at equal level of trains with same similar weapons) have the same DPS over time is probably incorrect
Danita

Source and evidence please!

These guys are pendragon testers (not just players who have char copied to Pendragon)

'Probably incorrect' doesn't cut it

 

[Carlos Bananos]

Originally posted by Trinilim
very techinical description, and it all works on paper, but saying that the DPS of DW/CD and LA are the same is absolutely absurd.

And what Gekul said, end regen is of TREMENDOUS relevancy.

They are technically, the % chance to swing with 50 DW/CD _should_ equate to the same damage as 50 Left Axe, just mythic fucked up somewhere giving doublefrost the style damage of a reaction style, they said they fixed it...but go figure.

 

[Forau]

Here's a thought, since Berserkers are a popular and viable(according to some overpowered) class why not bring Mercs and BMs up to par with zerks instead of nerfing them to oblivion? The berserker is currently the only light tank that performs it's duties, which is overdamageing the maintank of the realm, I think alb and hib should ask for a functioning light tank before crying nerf to one of the most popular classes in the game. If you play light tank that takes a hp/armor-penalty then they need to kick out some mean damage. The end-regen/doublefrost-situation is a little much however. The best proposition I've seen so far was some kind of system so that you regen from endregen based entirely on your swingspeed. Which means that a zerk with DBA and HA would regen end as if tho he was using 3.3 spd weapon but spend "High End" for a 4.2 spd weapon. This would make berserker at least try to use their positionals etc.

Oh and yes, I play both a SB and a Berserker.

 

[Elixir]

interesting.....

 

[dakeyras]

Originally posted by Forau
Here's a thought, since Berserkers are a popular and viable(according to some overpowered) class why not bring Mercs and BMs up to par with zerks instead of nerfing them to oblivion? The berserker is currently the only light tank that performs it's duties, which is overdamageing the maintank of the realm, I think alb and hib should ask for a functioning light tank before crying nerf to one of the most popular classes in the game. If you play light tank that takes a hp/armor-penalty then they need to kick out some mean damage. The end-regen/doublefrost-situation is a little much however. The best proposition I've seen so far was some kind of system so that you regen from endregen based entirely on your swingspeed. Which means that a zerk with DBA and HA would regen end as if tho he was using 3.3 spd weapon but spend "High End" for a 4.2 spd weapon. This would make berserker at least try to use their positionals etc.

Oh and yes, I play both a SB and a Berserker.

Nice suggestion but as the article points out, LA/CDW/DW were once balanced...they need to restore that balance. If they do it by overpowering Mercs/BMs then we would have 4 overpowered classes instead of 2. Main tanks would want more, hybrids more, casters more.

All this at a time Mythic is looking to prolong the life of RvR fights. The solution is clear. Return LA to what it was (take away the double growth) and make End Regen a chant.

Problem solved.

 

[Karlo]

Originally posted by Forau
Here's a thought, since Berserkers are a popular and viable(according to some overpowered) class why not bring Mercs and BMs up to par with zerks instead of nerfing them to oblivion? The berserker is currently the only light tank that performs it's duties, which is overdamageing the maintank of the realm, I think alb and hib should ask for a functioning light tank before crying nerf to one of the most popular classes in the game. If you play light tank that takes a hp/armor-penalty then they need to kick out some mean damage. The end-regen/doublefrost-situation is a little much however. The best proposition I've seen so far was some kind of system so that you regen from endregen based entirely on your swingspeed. Which means that a zerk with DBA and HA would regen end as if tho he was using 3.3 spd weapon but spend "High End" for a 4.2 spd weapon. This would make berserker at least try to use their positionals etc.

Oh and yes, I play both a SB and a Berserker.

Nice idea, but I agre with dakeyras on this one.

 

[ravenslore]

TBH i can never remeber doing same damage as zerks even pre 1.50 and yes over time we do same unstyled damage IF we land offhand every hit but at best its 50% chance to hit so go figure.And finally the 3 realms end isnt fair cus simple fact, kill our bard we lose end thats doeasnt work on mids

 

[Gekul]

Have any of you actually played a LA using class properly to see how long we can style for without end regen? LA is a powerful style line, no doubt about it, but end regen is where the imbalance comes from. Being able to do nice damage is good, but when you start hitting for less than a seer after 5 hits it loses is power some.

Nice suggestion but as the article points out, LA/CDW/DW were once balanced...they need to restore that balance. If they do it by overpowering Mercs/BMs then we would have 4 overpowered classes instead of 2. Main tanks would want more, hybrids more, casters more.

If LA damage was halved, I would expect infils to get a nerf to their spec points or shadowblades a boost. Being able to use a 2h does not balance the classes. Before end regen, berserkers were considered balanced, mercs and BMs were considered underpowered. Stop being so bitter and ask for improvements to your own class instead of nerfs to others.

Mythic have said they are looking at the imbalance that end regen brings to LA, as a player who rarely has end regen I am not worried.

 

[old.Niljindil]

Originally posted by Gekul
Have any of you actually played a LA using class properly to see how long we can style for without end regen? LA is a powerful style line, no doubt about it, but end regen is where the imbalance comes from.

Wrong, it has been tested numerous times and doublefrost takes just as much endurance as any other high end cost styles. For example a zerker can user Dfrost 6 times with a 4.0 spd cleaver and a BM can use Hurricane 6 times with a 4.1 spd bastard sword, the BM also had no end left and the zerker had very little left, proving that "doublefrost cost huge amounts of endurance" is just pure bullcrap(if implying that other High endu styles cost less that is).

Originally posted by old.Reno
He states that CD users hit with their main weapon every time, afaik CD has a chance of using main hand weapon off hand weapon or both.
If I'm correct his conclusion that unstyled, CD and LA (at equal level of trains with same similar weapons) have the same DPS over time is probably incorrect, giving LA a slight edge damagewise for unstyled hits.

Danita

He did account for that, read it again its somewhere in the beginning and i remember it very clearly but cba to read it again

He said while calcing CD unstyled damage that with blah blah spec(cant remember) you had a 70% chance to dual swing and 15 to hit with main and 15 to hit with off, and from there calced the dps, seems very correct to me

 

[Gekul]

The fact that CD also has a high end anytime doesn't mean I can doublefrost anylonger
I am not trying to say LA is balanced with the other DW style lines btw.

 

[brommix]

btw you brought up the matter of spec points from the infils...if you didnt know, (i assume you didnt) then Infils got 2.5 spec points compared to the other assasins who got 2.2, nightshades got their DDs and shadowblades got a hp boost, you can then argue if you feel thats enough etc, but there are noone saying that shadowblades are forbidden to spec in crit strike, are there

 

[Gahldir]

Originally posted by brommix
btw you brought up the matter of spec points from the infils...if you didnt know, (i assume you didnt) then Infils got 2.5 spec points compared to the other assasins who got 2.2, nightshades got their DDs and shadowblades got a hp boost, you can then argue if you feel thats enough etc, but there are noone saying that shadowblades are forbidden to spec in crit strike, are there

0.3 more specc points VS NS insta-dd was the best/worst joke ever from Mythic imo.

But back to the subject. I think it's better to nerf 1 or 2 classes independetly how popular they are if they are better then they should be (btw, that would mean the are overpowered, and those classes are allways popular ) rather then bost the other 100 classes in 100 different ways to even it out

Endregen...
From what I have heard Hibstyles costs more end since they started out with endregen when the other realms did not(anyone that knows if this is a myth or true btw?). But my guess is that Mythic thought endregen had a to great inpact to RvR then they meant it to be and therefor gave it to the other realms aswell. Afaik they didn't fix the enduse on the hibstyles when doing this (IF they cost more that is). And the outcome is that hib ends up with the worst version (silly punishment for having it from start?), while they gave the best form of end regen to the realm that realm that can turn end over to most damage.

LA...
I can live with the fact that it is the best meleedamage in game. Mid is afterall the meleerealm. But I think it should maybe not be as powerfull as it is at the moment. Also I think that DW and CD should not be as far away from LA as they are today as far as I see it.

So, redo mid endregen to something you can kill. Please also make hib endregen uninteruptable, cuz that's just poo imo. nerf LA-damage slightly and higher DW and CD so they are abit closer to LA. Also overlook the styles in these two lines and I think you will end up with 2 slightly nerfed, and not nerfed beyond all recognition, classes and 5 classes that are abit tweaked. BM, Mercs, NS and Rangers would imo be more enjoyable and not at all overpowered if they do this nicely. The effect it will have on Infils might be another story. Might end up solving one problem just to get a new one if unlucky.

 

[Repent Reloaded]

Mid is a melee dmg realm, alb/hib isnt, leave LA alone imo.

 

[dakeyras]

Originally posted by Repent
Mid is a melee dmg realm, alb/hib isnt, leave LA alone imo.

Says who?

You...


Been wanting to say this for yonks

cry more noob

 

[dakeyras]

Originally posted by Gahldir
Mid is afterall the meleerealm

Means Mid has more melee specced chars..NOT that Mid should do outrageous damage!

LA is is being nerfed...adjust and live with it as Albions clerics had to do.

Spec crit strike or use 2H if you are that worried that the correction of a developers error is not gonna allow you to exploit a bug!

 

[SilverHood]

good points made there

but if they nerf LA, they'll have to boost something else in midgard, cos atm, there aint many classes in midgard thats worth playing.

 

[Gekul]

but there are noone saying that shadowblades are forbidden to spec in crit strike, are there

Because Critblades are excellent in assasin v assasin.

Most shadowblades will spec in leftaxe so they aren't sitting ducks out of stealth. Many (me included) will have CS too. Yes, I did know about the increased hps (although being a kobbie I don't enjoy this advantage as much as my ugly norse friends ), just the use of 2h is often thrown up as a balancing ability when it has very little use when one shotting is not common.

Mythic said they were looking in to end regen/LA combo. If they were to nerf LA in the way this page suggests, the balance between classes would change drastically, it's not something I think mytic will do tbh.

 

[Gekul]

About the hitpoints vs spec points balance. Being a 5 spec my skills are spread relatively thin (although I have higher weapon/lower env than most 5 specs).
I spread the points in a similar way to my SB on the inf character builder to see what could do with the extra points -> max weapon, higher env. Not really suprising. What I thought was funny, was if I were to lower DW to 18 instead of the 39 I need as a LA using SB. Not only could I have higher weapon (44 slash), I could also have a higher alternate weapon too (44 thrust).
Just something I thought was interesting, I know the styles are not very good, but something to bear in mind when telling me I should be doing half the damage I do now (which is not that good tbh hehe).

 

[healer_mcheal]

Originally posted by Gahldir

Endregen...
From what I have heard Hibstyles costs more end since they started out with endregen when the other realms did not(anyone that knows if this is a myth or true btw?). But my guess is that Mythic thought endregen had a to great inpact to RvR then they meant it to be and therefor gave it to the other realms aswell. Afaik they didn't fix the enduse on the hibstyles when doing this (IF they cost more that is). And the outcome is that hib ends up with the worst version (silly punishment for having it from start?), while they gave the best form of end regen to the realm that realm that can turn end over to most damage.

Ive got alts on mid/pryd, and i can style for MUCH longer over there without end regen, they use very little compaired to what hibs do, BUT as mentioned, thats because hib was the only realm with end at one point, if u wanna even it out, make the bloody end a chant and put it on the only class that uses propper chants, IE, Skald, like in alb they slapped it on the paladin.

 

[Gahldir]

Originally posted by dakeyras
Means Mid has more melee specced chars..NOT that Mid should do outrageous damage!

LA is is being nerfed...adjust and live with it as Albions clerics had to do.

Spec crit strike or use 2H if you are that worried that the correction of a developers error is not gonna allow you to exploit a bug!

said I could live with it, not that I liked it. In the same way Hib is supposed to be the magic realm, but do they nuke harder? No, not really. Same delve value on samelvl nukes in every realm ..

I for one don't a class NBAR'd. Even if it is an enemyclass. tbh, smitenerf was prolly good for alb as a whole realm. Now Herbal isn't the only healer in your realm

If the last sentence was meant to me, may I enlight you with the fact that I am hib, not mid

 

[Gahldir]

Originally posted by SilverHood
good points made there

but if they nerf LA, they'll have to boost something else in midgard, cos atm, there aint many classes in midgard thats worth playing.

we will prolly see a thong of savages instead of zerkers and SZs