Just a thought

[Kernum]

I was playing away tonight and me and a few friends where having some fun banter about Alb being the best realm etc etc as we didnt seem to be able to get Bled back of those pesky Albs
It occured to me that I have read a thousand posts about nerfing this and nerfing that and how Alb get this and we dont...
And yet on Pry at the moment Hibernia seem to have taken the edge..a realm that was once never even in the race are now very strong.
It got me thinking.
Perhaps its not the classes after all..
Perhaps, and bear with me on this, its not the classes at all but the players who play those classes that matters in the end?
Maybe I`m wrong..maybe Midgard is getting a Royal kicking cause we have the weakest classes?
I think not. I think we have some weak players who are being found out...
We shall see.
K.

 

[Blood]

you are not serious are you?

here is the situation on prydwen:
1. midgardians dont care enough anymore to even go out and defend their own keeps... the midgard alliance have fallen apart in 2-3 fractions, and there is a absolute lack of organization (mainly because no one wants to take orders)

2. albions have the numbers to stop all attacks on them (and do it zerg style). And at the same time they also have groups of highly organized guilds that can gather people at 6am sunday morning.

3. hibs are few, but tightknit, they play well together, use tactics, and when they zerg, they do it well, because their support classes support, and their tanks dont break mezz.

Hibs/Albs/Mids might hold the most keeps at any given time, this is mainly because no one cares about a couple of keeps.

Regarding the current state of RvR in emain, the constant zerging.. imo there is little doubt, the midgard classes can zerg just as well as the others, our misfortune is that so few healers care to RvR.... if midgard had 1 healer for every 3 players, you would see us win every single zerg war.. (thanks to mezzing and stunning)

 

[old.Tzeentch]

funnily enough, that sounds like the same way I would describe the 3 realms on excalibur.

 

[-Lonewolf-]

Originally posted by Kernum

Perhaps, and bear with me on this, its not the classes at all but the players who play those classes that matters in the end?

K.

Think u hit the nail on the head with that one, of course I could be wrong

 

[Flimgoblin]

Classes/spells/level differences can be upto 50% of it ...

but skill/organisation is the other 50%...

for small encounters anyway...

for the large relic raids it's 90% organisation 10% numbers

 

[Kernum]

Errm Old blood I am serious.
Look at your own reply?
You go on to say we are disfraction and basically unorganised on Pry.. IE BAD PLAYERS!!!!!!
Bad Players = those who think they own everyone else in Midgard and can tell them what to do and hate it when someone says no.
At the moment it seems a difficulty organising a Keep raid.
And dont give me that "they have more its not fair"
You just said the Hibies are small in numbers but then go on to use words like tight nit and well organised....
And they seem to be doing ok atm.
hmmmmm maybe if we where the same?
And we are not as you pointed out...so i ask why are we not?
Bad players.
K.

 

[Ottar]

> You go on to say we are disfraction and basically unorganised
> on Pry.. IE BAD PLAYERS!!!!!! Bad Players = those who think
> they own everyone else in Midgard and can tell them what to do
> and hate it when someone says no.

We are unorganized because there are players who take upon themselves to tell others what to do? Am I misunderstanding something here or.. ?

Players who tell others what to do are leaders. There can be no organization without someone leading it. Successful raid depends on 3 things:

1. Sufficient numbers.
2. Good leadership.
3. Discipline.

Good leadership is impossible without discipline. You can’t co-ordinate people who ignore you and do mostly whatever they feel like doing. This is by far not the only thing it takes for good leadership to exist but its a basic requirement.

One thing that makes this bloody game a new kind of hell is that pretty much any big thing requires a multi-group force. Such a force is more of a farce if it’s uncordinated and unlead.

Our playerbase, however, is made up of geekish young liberal individualists. Now, these are mostly great guys to to sit in a bar, curse Microsoft over a couple of beers, stuff like that. However, co-ordinated effort is not our forte. Our automatic reaction to any kind of authority is to ignore it and despise it. As a corollary, few or none of us accept position of authority for ourselves.

Our automatic reaction to problems is to debate. Somehow, we fail to be any good at even debating. Just a few caricatures I think you’ll be familiar with:

Frustration Amplifier. ”Why am I here, you are all idiots” type, who is frustrated because of inefficiency of the group and highly vocal about it.

Man of Ideas. ”Lets go there and do that instead!” people, the hyperactive idea generators who can produce 2 ideas a minute on average, each consecutive one more and more irrelevant to the problem at hand.

The Fuhrer. ”You are all idiots, why are you not listening to what I tell you”, the mad dictator type that is actually the closest to a leader but gets more ignored the more he yells at people.

So, all in all, Blood is about right. We are disorganized because we have no leaders. We have no leaders because we cannot be lead even if we had them.

Conclusion: Blessed are the classes that can solo effectively.

Ottar

 

[Jupitus]

Time has shown that many of the 'greatest' leaders throughout history have not actually been very popular people... Napolean, Hitler, Maggie Thatcher... a few examples.

In the context of a game, a leader of this kind is not going to get very far, given the fact that people are out there to enjoy it.

As I understand it, the would-be leaders in Midgard seem to have adopted a 'GIVE ORDERS ON ASEND AND PEOPLE SHOULD DO WHAT THEY ARE TOLD' approach so far, which is not going to do much for the sensitivities of the people they are trying to organise.

In the context of the game, I believe you will find a leader who is more subtle, and has emerged as a leader through earning the respect of the players around him. This is not a 'who has the most RPs' kind of respect, nor is it a 'who has the most level 50s' kind of respect. It is a 'who listens to, repsects, asks rather than tells, and thanks those around him' kind of respect that I believe will receive the best response.

You have a few people in Midgard who are like this. I know some names, but I will spare their blushes. All that remains is for you lot to work it out for yourselves, if you can.

By the way, Ottar, The People's Professor (tm) might be one, and then his infiltration into our enemy's ranks will be complete!!! Mwuahahahahahaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!



Jup.

 

[Solid]

I have noticed a new trend on /as

its called giving orders without actually giving them.

eg a quote "Ooh I noticed xxx albs have just died in yyy zone, wonder if its a good idea to do zzz in tt minutes with a force of about wwww"

ie they disguise orders with this kind of a statement.

Now I think its a nice way to reduce tension, but effectively it is the same thing, and if dumb old me can see thru it, i am sure more mids can.

Problem atm is unless you are part of the MACHINE mentality and go with the zergs, whether it be relic attempts, Legion/Dragon raids, Emain Skirmishes, there is little of any satisfaction to be done, unless you are a very patient person, like Ottar is in Odins most nites. Strictly guarding the mile gates with a handful of mids that tire of the zerg.

Assasins and Archers are the only classes that can play this game solo in RvR, everything else comes down to numbers and classes available

 

[old.Revz]

Originally posted by Jupitus
Time has shown that many of the 'greatest' leaders throughout history have not actually been very popular people... Napolean, Hitler, Maggie Thatcher... a few examples.

In the context of a game, a leader of this kind is not going to get very far, given the fact that people are out there to enjoy it.

As I understand it, the would-be leaders in Midgard seem to have adopted a 'GIVE ORDERS ON ASEND AND PEOPLE SHOULD DO WHAT THEY ARE TOLD' approach so far, which is not going to do much for the sensitivities of the people they are trying to organise.

This approach works but only when you have some sort of ultimate recourse to back up your words. Within a guild you have the option of kicking someone if they don't do what you tell them to do. Through a process of attrition you can build up a guild of people who will take orders when necessary regardless of their personal feelings and that works better than anything else that I have ever seen.

Of course you get the Mavericks who "won't take orders from anyone" but they end up out on their arse. If you are careful from the outset you won't get that sort of person anyway though *cough*MckFly*cough*. Obviously being a member of your guild has to be much more attractive than leaving otherwise people will begin to consider whether it is worth the risk getting kicked for disobeying.

This won't work in an alliance because you don't personally control who is a member of it and have no ultimate option should people stop listening to you. In that case you need the softly, softly approach Jup mentioned. It will work almost as well but take longer and tends to involve a lot more red tape than being dictatorial. Of course you don't always win friends by giving orders all the time but you will win respect if things are seen to be working. Eventually it becomes second nature to listen to you and at that point you can back off from being such a hard nosed bastard because things get done when you ask nicely as well

 

[Danya]

Originally posted by old.Tzeentch
funnily enough, that sounds like the same way I would describe the 3 realms on excalibur.

Except excalibur has the real alb zerg. Alb/pryd isn't as much bigger as people like to make out.

 

[old.Revz]

Albion, Prdwen has a 2% population advantage over Midgard. Albion, Excal has a 19% population advantage over Midgard so the two aren't even comparable. Don't believe me? Click on the general stats here and see for yourself :

http://www.duskwave.com/daoc/index.php

 

[Kernum]

"Our playerbase, however, is made up of geekish young liberal individualists. Now, these are mostly great guys to to sit in a bar, curse Microsoft over a couple of beers, stuff like that. However, co-ordinated effort is not our forte. Our automatic reaction to any kind of authority is to ignore it and despise it. As a corollary, few or none of us accept position of authority for ourselves."

Really? I`m in the minority then.
I would not sit in a bar talking Microsoft..I`m a window Fitter ffs.
I ve done the " im not taking orders cause to take orders would be to admit Im a faceless cog in the machine" thing.
You get over it honest.
It`s called growing up
Heres the thing people: Whatever career you chose what ever happens to you in life one thing is certain..
You WILL end up taking orders.
No matter what. Its how life works.
Sounds to me like when people grow up and smell the coffee Midgard may be a better place.
I`ll be waiting..
< Oh and Marxism doesnt work...Sorry to say but give it up. >
K.

 

[Kernum]

<quick note>
I am not having a go at any one personally at all..
Im sure most of you are great people
I ve met some of my own Guildies i RL and they are great funny people.
Just a few who seem to be throwing a spanner in the works when that isnt what Midy needs right now..
K.

 

[Ottar]

> many of the 'greatest' leaders throughout history have not actually
> been very popular people... Napolean, Hitler, Maggie Thatcher...

Hitler was rather popular in his country at the time. How competent a leader he was is questionable. For a better example consider Julius Caesar, a great leader and statesman who was assassinated by his own senators.

> In the context of the game, I believe you will find a leader who is more subtle

We have had those. Guess what? None I know plays the game anymore.

> Ottar, The People's Professor (tm) might be one

Thanks but no thanks. Much better at being professor than the leader of men. If anything, I am usually capable of shuting the fuck up and following orders. Quite satisfies my need to be uniquely individual

> its called giving orders without actually giving them.

Aye, and in a sense it’s even worse than the previous “message from his celestial majesty” kind. Orders must be specific, to the point and above all they must be orders. Example:

“if anybody cares, maybe someone should scout or whatever?”

Is uncertain, is unspecific and is not an order. Who should scout? Where? Notice the question mark at the end of it? A question mark has no place in an order.

“StealtherX haul arse and check buff hill for hibs”

..is much better.

> Through a process of attrition you can build up a guild of people who
> will take orders when necessary regardless of their personal feelings
> and that works better than anything else that I have ever seen.

One regret I have is that nothing like SOTL never happened in Midgard. In a sense I am sad you are leaving.

Ottar

 

[Flimgoblin]

People follow you if they respect you...

to get them to respect you you need to do well in RvR, lead some successful raids. Of course to do that you need them to follow you.

Anyone else feeling a bit Yossarian here?

oh well...

once people are following - crisp, precise orders are good... debate is bad

 

[Cedig]

It seems that everyone has turned into RP whores, now that we are all RvR'ing for RA's

Before we had RA's people would follow orders to succeed in raids etc. Now people follow orders until they can smell the RP, then they rush to do the most dmg, so they get the lions share of the RP

I feel this is whats killing the game... pure hunger for RP, leaders are just stopping leading.... I mean how many times do you have to shout (as agreed leader) "DO NOT CHASE THE ALBS TO THEIR PK" The sight of the enemy is like a red mist to some players.

Even in Hib's Closely knit community, leaders are quietly stepping back, some never to return

 

[Jupitus]

Originally posted by Ottar


“StealtherX haul arse and check buff hill for hibs”

... I prefer:

“StealtherX haul arse and check buff hill for hibs pls”

 

[Flimgoblin]

Originally posted by Cedig
It seems that everyone has turned into RP whores, now that we are all RvR'ing for RA's

Before we had RA's people would follow orders to succeed in raids etc. Now people follow orders until they can smell the RP, then they rush to do the most dmg, so they get the lions share of the RP

I feel this is whats killing the game... pure hunger for RP, leaders are just stopping leading.... I mean how many times do you have to shout (as agreed leader) "DO NOT CHASE THE ALBS TO THEIR PK" The sight of the enemy is like a red mist to some players.

Even in Hib's Closely knit community, leaders are quietly stepping back, some never to return

I find it hard to watch chat whilst in RvR... getting easier... but the first few times there I just lost me head and ran around chickenstyle...

it's like when you first find a BAF'ing monster in PvE... (I was totally stumped by the filidhs near the spiders... they come in groups of 2 or 3? eek!) or 6 pygmys come at once...

you lose your head (and generally die horribly )
but once you're used to it, you're secure in your character's abilities, you can take care of it....

Same probably applies to RvR I'll tell you when i stop clucking...

 

[Flimgoblin]

Originally posted by Jupitus


... I prefer:

“StealtherX haul arse and check buff hill for hibs pls”

arg! get some vowels! please!

 

[Jupitus]

Originally posted by Fingoniel



arg! get some vowels! please!

... my apologies... there would be two versions.

1) If Aethelstan and a significant number of roleplayers were in the command chat, it is:

“StealtherX, sir, please check buff hill for hibs carefully”

...and as before for the general rabble

 

[Pixie.Pebr]

Originally posted by Jupitus


... my apologies... there would be two versions.

1) If Aethelstan and a significant number of roleplayers were in the command chat, it is:

“StealtherX, sir, please check buff hill for hibs carefully”

...and as before for the general rabble

If Aeth was in the chat, it would be:
"JUP! GET INTO THAT BLOODY KEEP AND GIVE ME A REPORT DAMNIT! NOW! WHY ARE YOU NOT INSIDE YET?!"
(Sorry Aeth, had to )

Being in an RP guild might help a bit, seeing as (at least I) also RP the fact we are an army.
I follow orders, no questions asked, no matter how stupid I may think they are (and most often they are not stupid, if shit hits the fan it is because someone did NOT follow orders and f***ed it up).
If I have a problem with something, I raise it *after* the raid/defence/skirmish/whatever.

/stick on the leader.
Chase and kill if leader breaks off to chase and kill.
Keep the /stick if leader leaves target be.
Shut up and pay attention to the chat.
Win the battle.

If you cant teamplay, dont play.

 

[Sarnat]

I'm a Mad Führer!

I guess I didn't go to the army for nothing.