I've been thinking...

[Ctuchik]

Why isn't cheating in online games punishable by law?

 

[Genedril]

Why isn't cheating in online games punishable by law?

Cheating in sports isn't punishable by law is it? Unless you're doing it to manipulate betting odds. You tend to just get punished by whatever association runs the sport; this could be likened to having your account suspended or terminated.

 

[Punishment]

Lol, in recent news half of Swedens teen population was put behind bars ...

 

[Ctuchik]

Cheating in sports isn't punishable by law is it? Unless you're doing it to manipulate betting odds. You tend to just get punished by whatever association runs the sport; this could be likened to having your account suspended or terminated.

Ok i should have rephrased that to "Why isn't cheating punishable by law"...

I mean, why not?

I don't care if ppl cheat in their single player games but doing it in online games is very disturbing for the honest players.

Sure they get their accounts banned, but they just have to resubscribe with a new account and it's back to cheating.

If they can go as far as cheating then they really don't care about the risks of getting caught, otherwise they wouldn't...

Besides, getting caught cheating in say Football or Tour de France is a tad different as the newspapers always finds out so it's a bit more severe to get busted there.

Cheating in online games however only results in a slight slap on the wrists by the GM's in a suspended or banned account but no one other then the GM's and the cheater know's he's a cheater.

So yes, even if losing an account might sting a tad its still not much of a punishment as no one else will find out.

Wish more MMO companies had a name and shame board similar to World of Tanks, sure they only post the screen names but it's a start.

Game Rules Enforcement - World of Tanks official forum

They even name and shame whole clans if needed....

 

[Z^^]

geez wonder why thise guys got banned

Pedobear Clan [BEARS] disbanded by Administration

 

[Genedril]

Chet, I'm not going to defend people that cheat - though even I have in the past. I've jammed a coin to keep my jump key pressed down and afk'd while collecting the Typhoon glass. But...... I'd far rather our courts were doing something useful rather than tracking down users that may or may not cheat (it's #sometimes# a matter of interpretation). As MMO's are multi-national how to you get a global standard of policing for MMO's?

IMHO it's down to the Game Owners and players to police these things and to punish as they see fit (for instance Eve has a history of macro-miner ganks and DAoC has a history of small children whining that it's not far that someone else has something they don't).

 

[Fafnir]

Chet, I'm not going to defend people that cheat - though even I have in the past. I've jammed a coin to keep my jump key pressed down and afk'd while collecting the Typhoon glass. But...... I'd far rather our courts were doing something useful rather than tracking down users that may or may not cheat (it's #sometimes# a matter of interpretation). As MMO's are multi-national how to you get a global standard of policing for MMO's?

IMHO it's down to the Game Owners and players to police these things and to punish as they see fit (for instance Eve has a history of macro-miner ganks and DAoC has a history of small children whining that it's not far that someone else has something they don't).

If more players did boycott games that where not policed enough then game companies would be forced to start policing more since they loose money. My main reason for quitting wow last time was after doin 2 bg´s where it was me and 2 others who where playing rest just stood at the entrances.

 

[Genedril]

If more players did boycott games that where not policed enough then game companies would be forced to start policing more since they loose money. My main reason for quitting wow last time was after doin 2 bg´s where it was me and 2 others who where playing rest just stood at the entrances.

Why were you and the other 2 doing it? Just stand at the entrance with everyone else til they all do something? Part of me wants to be harsh and say it's your own fault for carrying on when those lot just stood there and got whatever it is for no effort. Much as I hate Blizzard I can't see how it's their fault in this instance.

{edit} Obviously before I didn't mean Chet I ment Ctuchik - I blame early morning posting.

 

[Fafnir]

Why were you and the other 2 doing it? Just stand at the entrance with everyone else til they all do something? Part of me wants to be harsh and say it's your own fault for carrying on when those lot just stood there and got whatever it is for no effort. Much as I hate Blizzard I can't see how it's their fault in this instance.

{edit} Obviously before I didn't mean Chet I ment Ctuchik - I blame early morning posting.

Well i dont want to waste time, we actually waited 10 min before doin anything, then the 3 of us went out and won a 5vs0 game. since thoose on the oposite side didnt do anything to stop us. And the system blizz added where you could flag someone via map dont work you either have to waste time or quit bg and not be able to join another one for a while since you are flagged a deserter. Would anyone pay to see a hockey match if there where only 3 playing on the ice while the rest just hang around booths?

 

[Genedril]

Is there a rule in hockey that says you must participate when on the ice? That said I suspect that the coach may drag you off if you don't.

I'm not saying that what they did is right but more that if I'd been you'd I'd have been damned if I'd have done the work for a bunch of slackers. Then again many DAoC ML raids carried afk'rs.

 

[Ctuchik]

{edit} Obviously before I didn't mean Chet I ment Ctuchik - I blame early morning posting.

I was starting to wonder.

But yes i agree, it is down to at least the owners of the game to catch cheaters, but they should never expect the playerbase to act as a voluntary cheatpolice the way they are now.

But once they have busted a cheater there should be a way to file a lawsuit for some of the more severe cases like hacking, duping or radaring, and maybe against ppl that use a third party program to bot and especially against ppl that hack other ppl's accounts. That isn't illegal either as far as i know, or at least not illegal enough to waste money prosecuting them for it.

Obviously i don't want ppl that jam a quarter down their keyboard when they afk level using their buffbotted pet and the likes get sent to jail or get a monetary fine because it's not that severe.

But they should go after the "heavy" cheaters like a ton of bricks.

 

[pez]

Jesus, nanny state much?

 

[Ctuchik]

Jesus, nanny state much?

Sorry, i just don't like cheaters as much as you do.

I'm weird that way.

 

[Genedril]

Hacking an account may be covered by data protection/privacy laws. Radar #might# be covered by interception of data.

Duping? It's in game currency so that'd be down to the provider to sort out (after all if you read the EULA's you don't own that stuff so in effect they're stealing the providers bits and bobs). I've no issue with people that don't want to hit 3 different keyboards (well I've got 5 but that involves leaping across rooms and furniture) in order to run multiple accounts. If they want to use HKN then more power to them.

Macro groups in most games should be easy pickings for anyone that knows what they're doing (btw I have tried and falied in groups vs. macro groups and that was our fault). Eve Falcon (I think that used to be de rigueur) could be a pain if you were a solo but then that's the shakes when fighting 1v 1.5. If you were that bothered then take your own.

So I'd agree on account hacking and radar. Everything else is fair game. TBH I salute those in Eve that used to abuse grids. They went to the trouble to work that stuff out and how to circumnavigate the long slow burn in. Props to them for figuring out the game mechanics that I've neither the time nor the patience to look at that deeply. Maybe starting in UO and playing Eve makes me look at this stuff differently?

 

[Ctuchik]

I've played EvE myself but it didn't give me any more patience for that sort of stuff, quite the opposite :/

 

[Punishment]

Im gonna reanswer it by saying, because it's a game and in all online games you agree you own nothing and the game developer owns everything and have no legal rights for any foundation of action ever.

Some games have frustratingly stupid security though like EvE in which 1 password lets you completely lock the account owner out of their account/account payment and so you will need to cancel subs through your bank which is stupid. 1 password for account and account management page for a game so many people spend alot of time on is just stupid and i lost 9 billioni sk that way and all i got was forum monkeys on the official forum saying lol get proper antivirus lol or lols you bought isk !, when it all came from opening a infected mail from a trusted friend who didn't inform me

/rant off

 

[Genedril]

opening a infected mail from a trusted friend who didn't inform me

forum monkeys on the official forum saying lol get proper antivirus lol

Umm?

Is the AM password the same as the game password in Eve? Been a while and I'd forgotten that. Still it's a provider issue and you should raise it with them. As long as they don't go down the stupid "what are the 2nd, 8th and 14th characters of your super special secret word" route.

 

[Punishment]

Umm?

Is the AM password the same as the game password in Eve? Been a while and I'd forgotten that. Still it's a provider issue and you should raise it with them. As long as they don't go down the stupid "what are the 2nd, 8th and 14th characters of your super special secret word" route.

EvE has allways had the same ingame and eve-o account management passwords and usernames and there is no way to change it, their security is hopeless

 

[Ctuchik]

But is there that many hack attacks against EvE accounts tho?

I haven't seen that many of them, granted i don't troll the EvE forums anymore...

I mean, it just doesn't seem worth it other then to get their hands on any eventual ISK as most of the other assets are usually spread out all over the universe, and getting to it all is a right pain in the arse, and it's in the other assets most of the real ISK is tied into...

 

[Punishment]

But is there that many hack attacks against EvE accounts tho?

I haven't seen that many of them, granted i don't troll the EvE forums anymore...

I mean, it just doesn't seem worth it other then to get their hands on any eventual ISK as most of the other assets are usually spread out all over the universe, and getting to it all is a right pain in the arse, and it's in the other assets most of the real ISK is tied into...

As i said i lost 9 billion isk and all it takes is a contract or 10, and yes accounts are taken all the time, they got 17bn isk total and i only got 8 back so yes i think it could be classed as worth it, thats alot of time and effort wasted for tech savvy game developers being too proud to have a secure system

 

[Ctuchik]

Ah yes, contracts, forgot about those.

 

[Punishment]

Let me just show you how easily it is done,

1. Someone gets your password.
2. 5 minutes later they log on your account and see what you have (the guy who opened my 3 must have shit himself as i was docked in a station on 1 char with 5bn isk an Orca a Revelation and 3 hulks and the second Docked in a Nightmare with a 2bn isk Proteus in station and a carrier and lots of BPO's and shizzle, 3rd account charon freighter machariel and a rattlesnake.
3. Log on EvE-O forums and change the email addy linked with the account management and then change the password and click a link in the mail sent to the newly changed addy.
4. I am now 100% locked out of my account and all emails are now directed to the new email addy.

Poorly thought out wouldnt you say ? As i mailed CCP saying that to break this account security weakness all they have to do is 2 things, 1 have a different password for eve -o of the option of one and secondly put a 24h timer on e-mail account changes for accounts and make it so the change can only be verified via the old e-mail addy or the one linked to the accounts creation.

I put it a little more strongly worded than that and was prolly a bad idea to send my job app for a CSR to them that week

 

[Ctuchik]

Aaaaanyway, to get back to my possibly delusional suggestion of making severe cheating break a law and to make a little bit more thought out reply to Genedril's reference to sports..

If you get caught cheating in say football or hocket or whatever it's not only bad for your rep as you don't have anything to hide behind being a public figure and all, it usually comes with a (debetable) hefty fine as well as the risk of not being allowed to compete ever again.

In a MMO if you get caught cheating all you risk is the loss of the account and that's it, if you want to keep playing you just have to buy a new account and sign up again.

No "public execution", no monetary fine, and no risk of being banned for good from playing MMO games again.

There's just not enough risks involved in cheating.

And before someone says "but playing in a MMO doesn't make you a public figure", well It's maybe comparable to blogging under an alias, no one knows who the real person is but many ppl have heard of the alias.

I dunno, maybe i'm just overreacting, but its annoying me so much.

 

[Punishment]

IP Ban, but easily got around, beyond that and banning the account there is no workable solution.

 

[LordjOX]

Well if you cheat in sports its the governing body of your sport that punishes you, not the rule of law in your country. Like Genedril says.

That is, it also depends how you cheat, if its by the use of illegal drugs its one matter. If its by being immoral, like using your hands in football, its entirely different.
For example, in association football, it's the governing body FIFA (through member associations like UEFA) that punishes players by fines or whatnot.

Cheating in video games is more about human morality.

It's really a nonissue. Another nerdrage by Ctuchik

 

[Ctuchik]

Another nerdrage by Ctuchik

You mean!

 

[Genedril]

IP bans are bad as mostly every bugger as a dynamic forward facing IP. If we're all IPv6 it could work though.

 

[Z^^]

... and it fucking hurt my 1 braincell.

(possibly bad humor)

 

[Genedril]

... and it fucking hurt my 1 braincell.

(possibly bad humor)

Cheating or everything else we've rambled on about?

 

[Z^^]

no just in general