Its all a matter of attitude

[nobrot]

Durgi tried to organize a relic raid, it was cancelled because (according to Durgi) there wasent enough interest....

That's kinda disapointing, I know relic raids arent the be-all and end-all of the game, but they are sure as shit more important than random keep taking...

Anyone else feel that it was a poor show show of Midgard to not have generated enough interest in joining a relic raid that someone was prepared to try and organize?...

 

[Azal]

It was cancelled due to a lack of interest, a lack of numbers of people arriving, noone really responding to join the cg for it, and only 1 guild having got any rams for it. Just to clarify

 

[ulukin]

dont think its a trend exclusive to midgard,but agree have noticed a huge lack of comitment from the realm of late

one instance spings to mind when we lost 2 keeps 1 was defended the other was not (one was bledmeer the other i forget) there was a large interest upwards of 4 full groups assembled, for some reason we moved to bled first (furthest away and also defended) after a long hard fought battle we retook the keep, at this point i ld'ed and reloged to find myself alone, undaunted i moved towards the second keep to find that all but one group had suicided or were "holding the milegates" leaving one fg of ragtag keep assaulters, the doors were hard and it took upwards of 45 mins to take the keep whereas if all had took a little time this undefended keep would have fallen in minutes.

Point being is that people at the moment seem to be far more interested in that next realm rank or RA than anything else, just hope that with time this trend will die down and things will return to normal.

think its a damn shame people cant be bothered to turn out for a relic attempt after someone was willing to organise it and take that responsability onboard.

anyhow enough ranting hope it dosnt mean an end to people willing to make the effort to organise things.

<disclaimer> assuming this was tonight I was out with my Gf for the night and heard nothing about it or would have been there.

 

[ImLestat]

Seriously, I think that this problem stems back from the time when there was a relic raid every day for 2-3 weeks or something. There was a change back then. People became tired of throwing themselves at the relic gates, basically for nothing. Also, during that period, Midgard became more fragmented, for reasons discussed earlier, which I don't want to bring up now. Of course, this is just my theory, but I don't think it is way off course.

 

[SilverHood]

Hmm, Fedaykin alliance had our weekly hunt today, killing WoW's and other inhabbitants of Raumarik.

Don't think anyone from our alliance even know it was going on.

 

[ImLestat]

Which further strengthens my theory. Fragmentation, where the fragments don't communicate. Nowadays it just seems easier to call things like these "lack of interest" instead though.

 

[myrte]

Get it straight, 80% of Midgard won't go to anything Durgi is organizing anymore.

You may flame me for this but I just point out the obious, without any intention to comment on the fact let alone on Durgi.

 

[old.Max Payne]

You're just saying what most ppl say Myrte, no need to flame you.

 

[Fafnir]

I would go to every relic raid if it was not for the lag, fps, and ld's. Perhaps it will get alot better with SI. Then the albs will feel the wrath of midgard but its still to early to say. Have to wait for the beta reports.

And this keep taking can get a bit dull after a while since often you come to the keep and its not defended. So the only reward is that you retake the keep. Mythic could perhaps implement conquer points when you take a keep, and thoose points could be spent to upgrade your guild keep with merchants/forge's etc.

Since today taking a keep is only matter of time. More people and it will go faster. And its not realistic to bash in the doors with your meele weapons. Keep door's shoul require rams etc to take down. Make it harder and more worthwhile to take a keep, and relics.

And goin on a relic raid is not that much fun when you come to the keep and its only a few defenders and all of the sudden you have lots and lots of defenders logging in. Would be better to not be albe to log in a relic keep.

 

[krill-nyd]

I don't think so Nobrot. If we couldn't ever get a relic raid together for sure, but how many have we had lately? Was this the second of two called on successive days? I couldn't make either but if I had it would have made three relic raids in close to a week. Such raids are tough and I don't think we can be too upset if several are called close together and one or more fail. Inter-alliance co-operation seems to be the future to me, maybe fragments but hopefully better working fragments. Some attempts are being made for that, let's work on them.

As for defending Midgard, well I agree some nights we seem thin on the ground and other nights there are loads of people helping out. Recently when it seemed a relic raid on us might be happening we had over 100 people in Yggdra in what seemed fairly short time. Three alliances then each set out under Azal's direction to retake keeps, while more people still sat at Grallarhorn waiting. That was commitment from a lot of people. If we want to moan about when it doesn't work we have to remember when it does as well.

 

[Solid]

Durgi asked me yesterday as I took my guild to pastures new in the New Era Alliance, if HH would be their for Midgard at Relic Rids.

My reply was succinct and precise.

At a raid planned in good time, communicated to the whole realm and executed with sound strategy, you will be hard pressed to turn and not see the familiar sign of the black skull on white cloth.

The day I see this is the day we bring home the relics, simple as that.

A plea to all GM's : make a paper list of the GM's and Top Ranking officers of all the guilds in Midgard. We have the Chronicles and Belo's Duskwave site is superb for this also. Get those names listed, cg's can hold 50 people, even if i were 2 names per guild, 25 guilds = success for Midgard, its as simple as that.

Even tho we have the level advantage, and we dare to mock the albions for their situation RE larger guilds, perhaps we must look at ourselves and see where we fail.

The Hibernians, even thuough half our number, manage to make successful raids, and if not successful, damaging to the Albions.

Alliance Leaders, go register on the alliance boards of the other alliances, post there when you feel the urge for a relic raid, use the various communication mediums.

Albion has many alliances yet they can manage to control a well oiled machine of 150+ people to attack relics, it is not that hard.

 

[Jupitus]

Originally posted by Solid
Durgi asked me yesterday as I took my guild to pastures new in the New Era Alliance, if HH would be their for Midgard at Relic Rids.

My reply was succinct and precise.

At a raid planned in good time, communicated to the whole realm and executed with sound strategy, you will be hard pressed to turn and not see the familiar sign of the black skull on white cloth.

The day I see this is the day we bring home the relics, simple as that.

A plea to all GM's : make a paper list of the GM's and Top Ranking officers of all the guilds in Midgard. We have the Chronicles and Belo's Duskwave site is superb for this also. Get those names listed, cg's can hold 50 people, even if i were 2 names per guild, 25 guilds = success for Midgard, its as simple as that.

Even tho we have the level advantage, and we dare to mock the albions for their situation RE larger guilds, perhaps we must look at ourselves and see where we fail.

The Hibernians, even thuough half our number, manage to make successful raids, and if not successful, damaging to the Albions.

Alliance Leaders, go register on the alliance boards of the other alliances, post there when you feel the urge for a relic raid, use the various communication mediums.

Albion has many alliances yet they can manage to control a well oiled machine of 150+ people to attack relics, it is not that hard.

<puts on his stirring shoes>

Don't be so bloody silly, Solid! Everybody knows this won't work! You need sponaneity for a relic raid, orders barked across the realm, players jumping to attention at the great leaders voice with a desire to please them. Don't sit around for days planning things and getting people in place who know what their job is on the day in question! Don't let people know in advance so they can re-arrange their guild hunts!! These things are pure folly!!!



Oh, and after you bring the relic home, go kill the dragon and argue over the drops in your asend

TPT... pack it in... you are starting to worry me, getting all organised and that... next thing you know you'll be taking advice from Professor Ottar (tm) on siege equipment, then I KNOW we will be in for some real action

 

[old.Tbird]

Dont panic Jup you've nothing to worry about yet, so far this week i've seen :

Alliance 1: xxx has cg
Alliance 2: No, yyy has cg
Alliance 1: drop and join our cg
Alliance 2: No, we started ours first

AND

40+ Mids in cg after running across the frontier to retake Bled
Chat grp: I'll take my group and xxx group to hold the AMG, you go retake fensalir.
Guild chat/Group chat: Fk that we run past fens across the realm then get told to go back while 2 groups sit on their ass farming RP's at the MG

And of late the only RR i've seen mentioned was 20 Mids in Hib yesterday who considered the power relic after taking 6 keeps.

Back to sleep Albs nothing to worry you here :sleeping:

 

[Brannor McThife]

lol, Etzel, that was me that said that...

5 odd groups, 2 go to Fensalir after taking Nottmoor. Then we hear that the other 3 groups are going to "hold the AMG".

Glauthrong: "So, we get to bash on the doors while you farm RP? Nice."

Half-way through the second door (40 minutes later or so) they appear to finish the job. The problem is, 90% of every realm is an RP whore. They serve the almighty RP and couldn't give a rats ass about their realm. SotL are prime examples of this in Albion. Sorry guys, I was told a few times while I was in Alb that your guild would not waste its time going out into the Albion frontier to take undefended keeps and that there would have to be sufficient defenders to make it worth your while.

I sat bashing the doors with a small group of Mids last night at Arvakr (before we got wiped), while watching IRC and seeing how others were talking about their personal little fights in Emain.

Oh well...life goes on.

-G

 

[Old Nicodemus]

Aye Durgi did try to organise something over the weekend. He invited a number of us into a chat group to discuss the possibilities of attacking the relic keep.

I listened.

I and a lot of other people put forth views.

We listened.

Good points, bad points.

In the end it all boiled down to the normal tactic. Either take a whole load of keeps and let the Albs know we are about or go straight for the relic keep and battle uber guard pops and the passing horde of Albs that swarms to RP faster than flies on ..... errm you get my point.

Frankly I wasn't interested. Not that I didn't want to have a crack at the relic keep, I just had no inclination to do it that day.

Reason?

Well as a guild and as an alliance we had things pre arranged. That's what we wanted to do. So we did it.

If our relics had been attacked we would have been there. If the relic raid was going to happen on the next day, we would have been there.

Someone said that people won't go on things that Durgi organises. A bit harsh really. He does try. I can understand how they feel though but I do give him credit for at least having the balls to try.

Nicodemus

 

[Ottar]

Contemplating the size of one’s balls is something one may find comfort in after ramming one’s dick repeatedly into places where it is certain to get injured. Planning and running a raid is best done excercising another organ.

> last night at Arvakr (before we got wiped), while watching IRC and
> seeing how others were talking about their personal little fights in Emain

3rd best thing they could do actually.

1st best thing would be to show up for keep defence while the keep is still in our hands. Kalgarn reported Arvakr being under attack about 20-30 min. before people actually started to arrive at Vindsaul. From the first notice on /as, albs had time to take the keep (with me repairing the door from inside), sit there a bit, move to Vindsaul, gank a few people there, move back to Arvakr. Then people started to show up. While they were still attacking Arvakr, we had 3 defenders and 500 ironwood inside that keep (thanks Kalgarn), if we had 2 people repairing the doors from inside istead of one and 3-4 to to guard us from infiltrators, we could have held them off pretty much indefinitely. Then WE could have farmed them instead.

2nd best thing, after the keep is lost would have been to let them sit there and take Bledmeer instead. Or kill GG for that matter, basically keeping the force together while waiting for albs to leave Arvakr, then catch them on open terrain.

3rd best thing was to not show up at all. Let them sit there. They’ll go away eventually.

The worst thing to do was to go and try to take a well defended keep. With 2 groups of albs and 3 casters inside it. Thats exactly what they took it in the first place. So that we would show up so that they could farm us. Which is exactly what we did.

Patriotism? Caring about one’s realm? No, it’s called laziness of thought. And yes, Im about as guilty of that as the next guy, which does not make the point invalid.

You guys got ganked there NOT because people were doing whatever they did in Emain. Twice the number we had there could not have taken that keep with 3 casters up in the lord’s room.

Ottar

 

[old.Hellskor]

There a few "problems" with Durgi.
1.) He leads as if everyone knew, the second he thinks of something, what to do.
2.) He doesn't adept to the "real" situation.
3.) In the end it's always the same tactic. Primetime, run to Excal, die, release, repeat.

to 1.) "to lead" is something different from running point of a group/platoon/army.
People need to know what is expected of them. And this includes really tiny lil' silly things.
for example : last time at Excal, all the info the "Grunt" got was : "Get to the Doors!". The Grunts get moving and the RK Guards charge out and attack. Now Mr. Grunt got the following choices :

a) FIGHT the guards as soon as you get in touch with one.
b) RUN ON to the gates and handle the guards there.
c) FIGHT(Draw Aggro) the guards while RUNNING to the gates.

I guess the "Leaders" intention was choice c), but due to lack of Info, everyone chose one of it ... one third fighting them ... one third running on ... one third running back and forth in order to get the guards -> only one third of the true force actually fought at a time -> it took 3 times as much time to handle the guards -> 3 times higher chance that someone did get killed.

by this we come to 2.)
Maybe Durgi knows the what would be the right thing to do (hmm, on a 2nd thought ... he better DOES know it), but the problem is, he (seems to) think everyone else does know it aswell. Therefor there's no further info for the grunts, or a not-exact info.

1) Leader : "Get to the Doors!" ... put's Grunt#1 to the three choices again.
2) Leader : "GET TO THE DOORS AND HANDLE THE GUARDS THERE !!!" ... only option is b) now -> full force handles the threat

Last point, 3.)
Some pro's & con's of Primetime Raid
Pro
- fair play
(- honourable)
(- if succesful a real Achievement (you can still tell your grandchildren that story over and over again))

Contra
- defenders
- far more people needed
- more people leads to more stress to the game engine -> Lag (or low FPS more likely)
- no one can fight to his full extend (ever tried to line up a PA during a Relic Raid?)
- far more people will go Linkdead -> deadly to the force if a vital player LDs
- very likely to fail

Even though the 'Fair Play'-aspect is important, the downside of Primetime raids affects the own side a lot more.
A succesful Primetime Raid would need :
a) a force that can handle the guards at the RK, Bash down the gates at maximum speed and survive inside the RK even when Defenders show up (in other words : Mezz about everyone)
b) a force that can capture keeps very fast ... and stays in the field if the keeps are retaken during the RK Attack.
c) a force that can succesfully thin out the stream of defenders rushing to the RK

a) Would prolly need 40 people of high level that know what they're doing.
For every Defender inside, and for everyone who doesn't know the 'Drill', probably two more. So 60-70 People are kinda like the low end.
b) One group could fulfill this quite good. Problem : Very specialized mix of Chars and no LDs. (not counting Buffbots)
c) Let's face it ... in Albion it's about impossible to lock down a BK, not like in Hibernia and Midgard. 3 FGroups could hold back the first few (few like in a few dozen) Defenders though.

Bodycount : ~100 for the low end

Now since the engine is already a bit stressed with this amount of people, you need more to keep up with the loss-of-effectiviness (atleast at RK)

Amount of People that actually DO show up : 50-60 on a good day.
Failed Raids lower the amount of people coming even more.
So the standard Mid-tactic : "Run-Bash-Release-Repeat" Tactic hurts us more than the Albs.
Currently we can't get enough people to handle Keep taking/Relic Guards/Defenders properly at Primetime.
Insisting on Primetime raids only lowers the 'Battle-moral' (?) for us Mids.

 

[Freia]

Well spoken Hellskor.
It's sad but true, not that i argue for "5am sneak attacks".

One of the things you said that I think is especially interesting is the "inform the grunts" part.
People hardly ever get any information about what's going on (like what keep is next? what is the general plan? what the #@$¤!% exactly are we waiting for? How many rams do this group need to get? Is there anything _I_ can do except following when we move and pray i dont loose stick because of lag?).
Keep information flowing to the Grunts, that is extremely important for the morale which in turn gets more ppl to show up next time.
A leader should be committed to his keyboard, not to navigate penine mountains or PA albs. Or he should have a co-leader that handles the crowd and yells orders while he does the planning and decitiontaking.

 

[Xtro]

Maybe you could carry this discussion to the alliance boards and see if something can be resolved etc (in privacy )?

 

[Freia]

Originally posted by Xtro
Maybe you could carry this discussion to the alliance boards and see if something can be resolved etc (in privacy )?

Um.. *duh*.
Someone get me an acount and the url to an alliance board

 

[nobrot]

Well I have no comments about Durgi's competence as a leader, never been on a raid with him, but I applaud him for trying.

In the military, certain elements specialize in special skills or operations, certain elements have defined tasks, and a reporting structure. This may be only a game, but it does simulate a military theatre, so perhaps we should apply military tactics to our "simulated" military objectives.

It would be fun to organize (assuming the realm is commited), and it would work.

This public forum is not the place to discuss such things.. and I am not yet level 50, whats that got to do with anything?, well I beleive that you dont have to be level 50 to know how to be involved in the organization of a raid, but I do beleive that if you are level 50 you wont have anyone ignoring you when you order your forces to do a certain job.

The communication and rank structure is simple:
Raid Commander:
Sits in Huginfell and uses his CG that only contains field commanders.

Field Commander:
Will be on a group level, this guy simply controls his group and carries out the orders of the Raid Commander.

Now the group members under the command of the Field Commander will simply do as they are told.

This makes it simple for the Raid Commander, he picks his field commanders and tells them what their task will be, such as scouting the enemy Border Keeps and reporting enemy movements that may be a threat to the operation; or a blocking force that will hinder the deployment of reinforcements to the fight; or perhaps a Field Commander would be instructed to be prepared to provide the assult force for the first door, once the first door is down, the group would then concentrate on guard pops, whilst another group will be in charge of taking down the second door but will be responsible for guard pops whilst the first door is being taken down; simple mission plans for each group under the charge of Field Commanders. All the Raid Commander needs to do is to give a job to his Field Commander.

Provided that the Raid Commander can gather enough Field Commanders, and the Field Commanders can assemble their groups for the task at hand, it would work, and be fun for all concerned.

All we need is a Raid Commander that has a good plan, Field Commanders that will listen to the Raid Commander and do as he instructs, and enough bods kept in the loop by their Field Commander to do the job.

The planning could be done a couple of days before, only the Field Commanders and Raid Commander needs to know the planed time and target, which reduces the chances of leaks to the enemy.

Or am I talking out of my ass?...

 

[Danya]

Originally posted by Brannor McThife
SotL are prime examples of this in Albion. Sorry guys, I was told a few times while I was in Alb that your guild would not waste its time going out into the Albion frontier to take undefended keeps and that there would have to be sufficient defenders to make it worth your while.

Really Brannor, by who? I can think of several dozen undefended keep retakes I participated in personally straight off the top of my head. I can remember in fact retaking 5-6 alb keeps in a night with no sign of defenders. Yet this makes me an RP whore? Thanks.

 

[Freia]

Originally posted by nobrot
The planning could be done a couple of days before, only the Field Commanders and Raid Commander needs to know the planed time and target

Your vision sounds very nice to me. Kinda reminds me of my own =)

 

[Freia]

Originally posted by nobrot
The planning could be done a couple of days before, only the Field Commanders and Raid Commander needs to know the planed time and target

Your vision sounds very nice to me. Kinda reminds me of my own =)

 

[nickelilltroll]

>Or am I talking out of my ass?...

Hehe Nobrot one could almost believe you have done your military service (What background do you have?)

Fully agree with you, however, this kind of organisation requires a certain amount of discipline and an interest in actually succed with whatever activtity you start (determination) all the way down the hierachy from the the platoon and squadleaders to the grunts. And lots of planning and communication.

Doable?


Nickelilltroll, former recon platoon leader in the Swedish army, now a shadowblade of untested capabilities

 

[old.Hellskor]

a few additions to Nobrots post :

Raid Commander :
Bad idea to place him away from the action, unless you don't want him there (this might be a valid option for some 'leaders')
He should be with the main force since he'll direct their movement and coordinate their action afterall. Just not fighting, not scouting, ram building etc.
Better he steps a bit aside and keeps an eye on the general situation like Defender Movement, process on doors, behaviour of the grunts. He's the one ultimately in charge.
His job : Surveil the situation, and give commands ( /y FOCUS ON GUARD, /y DON'T CHASE THE ALBS/HIBS, /y STICK TOGETHER etc.)

Field Commander :
If every Groupleader would be Field Commander it would cause more damage than good. Field Commander would be more like a Platoon Commander. 1 Platoon is made of 3-4 Groups in real-life military (unless I mixed the english terms for this up) would be quite suitable for DAoC aswell.

*Heavy Weapons Platoon : 3 Groups, Siege Weapons. 1 Group per door, ~6-7 Rams per door. As long as the assigned target for their group isn't actual, they can help the Grunts (aka Ground Infantry) or the Artillery (I know you Thanes just LOVE your Mjolnir)

*Artillery Platoon : Runies/Spiritmaster/Hunter, not alone in a platoon, but spread about the rest of the participating groups, but coordinated in chatgroup of their own (maybe).
Most defenders are usually found on the front corners of the RK, now imagine what happens when 10-20 Runies would launch a coordinated (all cast at once/short succession) AE attack on those with support by single target attacks from SMs/Hunters.

*Ground Infantry Platoon : 4 Groups, if you can deal out damage, this is your place. Keep the Guards low ... and ONLY the guards.

*Flankers : 1-2 Groups (with aid from the other 'Platoons'), make sure nothing disturbs the others from the sides or behind.

those for the RK-force, keeptaking and intercept troops could prolly work on group basis.

Might look like an immense amount of people, but those borderlines between the Platoons should be fluid.
e.g. a Thane of the Heavy Weapons : Priorities Heavy Weapons -> Guards -> Artillery -> Flanks
or a Warr of the Grunts : Guards -> Flanks -> Doors (if he brought a ram along)
or for Artillery : Defenders -> Flanks (they don't have to run there) -> Guards

it's a MUST that everyone knows which is his platoon/main priority, and the name of the person who is in charge of this Platoon.

Count : 1 Raid Leader, 4 Field Commanders -> 5 people who are giving Orders (and maybe some 'Corporal' who keeps reminding people of stuff like to focus on guards/what's going on)

 

[Xtro]

Originally posted by Freia

Um.. *duh*.
Someone get me an acount and the url to an alliance board

lol ...*duh* I think I found out why Midgard is currently fucked up

 

[nobrot]

Originally posted by nickelilltroll
>Or am I talking out of my ass?...

Hehe Nobrot one could almost believe you have done your military service (What background do you have?)

Heh, I must admit to giving 10 years to her Majesty the Queen..., tho I can say what I did, or I would have to eat you

 

[erl]

Hellskor: sounds like great fun organizing things that way, would sure add a dimension to the raiding. Can't you lead one raid like this, I promise to be there

 

[nobrot]

Helskor, some excelent and valid points, and a different view but the game's restrictions may make your idea hard to work in practice...

Perhaps the Raid Commander should be closer to the fight, and not sipping ale in Huggin.. but that would depend a lot on the style of the leader and the ability of the Field Commanders, but essentialy, I agree, perhaps he should be closer to the fight.

As for /y Focus on guards, I dont know that that would be best because he would be yelling at all elements in the area, he should within the CG tell a Field Commander to deal with the guards, assuming that his original plan isnt working... also I agree that a Field Commander would represent a Platoon leader, but within the limits of DAoC I think that the command and control structure would need to be simplified. Here's why...

A Field Commander would be in the Raid Commanders CG, thats essential... therefore he only has 3 chat groups (or dedicated communication channels) CG, Group and Guild. The Guild channel could be used if all the people under the Field Commanders control are in the same guild, and guild members not on the raid dont use the guild chat, but generaly this "open" channel would not normaly be suitable; so the Field Commander would have to monitor his CG for orders from the Raid Commander, and use his group chat to inform his troops of what is going on, and to give them orders. This is the only way I see it working within the "limitations' of the communications of the game... now introduce RogerWilco and we have a whole new scenario .

The idea of grouping or defining heavy weapons platoon's, ground infantry etc is good in principal, but I refer again to the limitations of game communications. Thats why it has to be kept simple. But there has to be variants...

Perhaps the Raid Commander would have 6-10 Field commanders, he is going to be very busy, but providing the Field Commanders (group leaders) are well briefed on their mission before the raid it should be a simple enough chain of command to work (again this is within the limits of the game). If I were to be a Raid Commander, I would perhaps have the following groups.

Scouts: (1 Group)
Scouting the BK's and approaches to the target RK. They will report any significant enemy movements directly to the Raid Commander.

Reaction Force: (1 or 2 groups)
Strategicaly camped to act as a blocking force to any incoming defenders. Under direct control of the Raid Commander,

Four groups dedicated to the guts of the raid,
One group will Always focus on Guards and enemy reinforcements.. that is all they will do. Three other groups will be dedicated to the three RK doors, when they are not bashing their door, they too will be taking care of guards and enemy reinforcements. Each Field Commander will make sure his group has enough rams for the job.

Another group, primarily SB's to deal with the bowmen.

And perhaps a rezzer party with speed and light escort.

I could yak on and on about the details, what classes would be ideal for what groups, but the point I am trying to make is that the command and control structure can only work to two levels within the game. Primary Command would be the Raid Commanders CG, and level two at the Group level.

Apart from the Raid Commander, the Field Commanders would be absolutely key to the success of the Raid, they would have to use good judgement to make the right moves to acheive their assigned goals; they should also keep theirr group members fully informed of whats going on, this makes it interesting to those not in the chain of command, and gives the group a sense of purpose.

I was in the military, and we applied the KISS principle, apply the KISS principle and you will greatly reduce the potential for fek-ups.

KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid).

OK, Hands up for a Relic Raid this weekend ... and yes all you Albs, you are welcome to come and defend... if you do, we will go to Hib-Land instead .

All the above applies to undefended or lightly defended RK's, for those that are heavily defended I suspect we should all go on a legion raid instead.

These are just my loose ideas that are open to debate (and flames), maybe when I have dinged 50 I will ask for volunteers to try these simple plans out or to help create plans that work well in actual raids...