Interesting Blog about Iraq

[Driwen]

You'll be blathering on about "excessive" American military spending next, yet by GDP it is quite reasonable. Spin on.

Actually USA spend estimated 3.2% of its gdp on military in 1999. While France (as largest spender of the EU) 2.57% in 2002. Also the USA expense would probably have risen by 2002 due to 9/11.

(facts gotten from cia's world factbook 2003)

 

[mr.Blacky]

The USA has consistently vetoed anything going through the UN which is not in it's narrow interest. The USA refused to pay it's dues to the UN (the owed $687,000,000), and was ejected from the Human Rights Commission. They pulled out of the Landmine Treaty. They pulled out of a treaty banning germ warfare. They, along with Israel, dropped out of The World Conference against Racism. The failed to ratify 3 core Human Rights treaties. America, the biggest polluter in the world, scuppered the Kyoto Protocol.
I reckon you're still confused about the meaning of the word nationalism. BTW, you do know that Hitler's party was voted into power don't you?

Okay just a few points.
Hitler's party was elected yes, but did it have an absolute majority? If they did why burn down the Reichstag.
Offcourse they would vote down anything that is against their interest, if you don't why bother having a nation?
As for your comment on the Conference against Racism, would you sit together in a conference with nations that call you racist, like Mugabe?
All together if you are saying that pride in one's country is the same thing as racism then you are dumb.

 

[xane]

like Mugabe?

Well, I've yet to see him wearing a badge.

 

[Will]

I can't believe I am wasting my time arguing with someone who equates badge-wearing with Nazis, if a mod wants to delete the above post on the grounds it is too long and boring, be my guest.

I'll leave it. I'm finding this quite an interesting discussion.

 

[Driwen]

Okay just a few points.
Hitler's party was elected yes, but did it have an absolute majority? If they did why burn down the Reichstag.

Actually a communist burned down the Reichstag. And hitlers party had close to a majority and formed the goverment with a small conservative party after the last election (there were 2 short after eachother iirc as after the first no one could form a goverment and after the second the nazis had more seats). The german system at that time, knew the ability to give all power to the goverment, if there was a serious crisis (as parlements do slow down decisions). Now the nazis simply forced the parlement to vote themself out of existence(think they needed 2/3rd majority and they simply refused no voters to enter the parlement and leaned heavily on the rest to vote yes).

 

[xane]

Actually USA spend estimated 3.2% of its gdp on military in 1999. While France (as largest spender of the EU) 2.57% in 2002. Also the USA expense would probably have risen by 2002 due to 9/11.

(facts gotten from cia's world factbook 2003)

Even, so, it is lower than most ME countries, and China, and nowhere near North Korea who spend 1/3rd of GDP on military !

My point is that when we discuss military expendature, it's absolute figures, thereby making US #1 baddie. When we discuss international aid, suddenly we talk %age GDP, and again US is #1 baddie. Use %age GDP for military and absolute figures for aid and the US emerges in a different light.

Also, I think you'll find Greece is a bigger spender in the EU, although data in the CIA Factbook only goes up till 2000, they have always spent above average for the EU and NATO.

 

[mr.Blacky]

Erm no the Nazis blamed a dutch guy for burning it Marinus van der Lubbe was blamed but most people believe it was burned by the Nazis. Joseph Goebbels, is supposed to have devised the scheme whereby 10 agents led by Karl Ernst were to gain access to the Reichstag through a tunnel leading from the official residence of Hermann Goring, Reichstag president and Hitler's chief minister, who was then to conduct an official investigation, which would fix responsibility for the fire on the Communists.

Oh and another random fact of the arson trial, at which van der Lubbe was convicted, was the acquittal of the Bulgarian Communist Georgi Dimitrov after a strong defense.

 

[Ivan]

I really lost the discusion progression here, but would like to point out that despite the fact that there are no outright indications of Nationalism in the US <certainly no indication of that in the government> i have personally read a history book that was published in the US <1996-7 i dont remember exactly> and the book has some pretty pro-nationalistic bias in there <eg America with help from Alliance won the WWII and freed Europe from the German and Communist clutches> dont quote me on this, it was something along these lines. If people are brought up on this no wonder they respect their country that much.
To some extent this happened , not anymore i hope, in every country, i recall having to stand up and say " Lenin lived , Lenin lives, Lenin will live ", these days are over finally .... but i doubt the US history book got corrected just like the good old "duck and cover".

I really lost the discussion there guys, so that above post may be out of line of the argument

PS: ussr never did have communism regime as such, socialism is what we had and it was a nasty and perverse communism "wannabe".

 

[xane]

PS: ussr never did have communism regime as such, socialism is what we had and it was a nasty and perverse communism "wannabe".

Yechnically yes, which is why I made a clarification on it, but there have been very few countries who have embraced communism that is not of the Russian variety, therefore if we talk about "communism" it normally infers the "nasty and perverse" version.

Out of interest, what badge did you wear ?

 

[Ivan]

Out of interest, what badge did you wear ?

I dont understand the question, badge ?
I will try to answer the way i understood this.
We had clones of "socialist" parties fit for any age upto 1990, they were agewise :

6-12 "Okt'jabrjenok" --> directly translated as "Octoberian"
12-18 "Pioner" --> has a meaning of "he who is always first" i think, not sure. These were the teens that walked on red square with red ties around the neck
18-XX "Komsomoletz" --> this is the main socialst body, if you were not in it or got kicked out then your friends stopped talking to you, your mother would be ashamed she ever gave birth to one such as yourself. Usually people got kicked for personal views that differed from the mainstream.
My mother was an active member of this nationwide party. I myself only managed as far as "Pioner" but was never officially initiated < we had a procedure of initiation that would take place on Red Square with thousands of young people standing on the sqaure while our esteemed leader congratulated us on our achievement.

As for badges, "Oktjabrjenok"/"Pioner" were much like boyscout clubs , but for everyone without exception. "O" wore tiny badge with Lenins profile on it. "P" wore red ties and the badges "O" wore, there was a variety of badges you were given based on your performance at school and in off curriculum activities organized by the club. "K" did not wear anything, they had to have their "K" Member ID with them at all times.

 

[Mofo8]

Civil Liberty violations are not indicators of "oppressive" regimes, because "liberty" is in the eye of the beholder, what you judge as a "violation" is not necessarily viewed by others, therefore it cannot be a reliable indicator.

Mmmhhh. Liberty may be in the eye of the beholder, that's why it's important to have a framework of international law, which must be respected:

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR510612004

America does _not_ have direct government control over industries, there are some limits enforced by regulation, there are some enforced through limits of foriegn control, but the industry is not controlled by the government in any sense of the word, in fact it is far more deregulated than it has ever been, and there is no government support for trade unions either, legislation is in fact bias against them.

I never said the USA had direct government control over industry. I said the US government was propped up by industry. Almost the opposite in fact. You could argue that major corporations based in the US have an unhealthy amount of influence and control over the government.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1138009.stm
http://www.opensecrets.org/bush/cabinet.asp

How many elections did Hitler contend ? The fact he was voted in the first time is drawing a rather stupid parallel as that was the only way he could come to power, the country did not become nationalist until _after_ that event. Was there a limit to how many years Hitler could serve ? When Bush negates the next election result, then outlaws the Democrat party and changes the constitution to remove the "two terms and you're out" rule so he can rule indefinitely, then maybe I'll concede to your view, otherwise I'm afraid you'll have to concede to mine.

OK. But, many American citizens themselves feel Bush stole the last election.

America also gave up many of its citizens lives in the war against facism and national socialism, to accuse them of becoming a similar regime is insulting in the extreme.

Bush's grandfather didn't seem to have any objection to profiting from trade and links with Nazi Germany:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prescott_Bush

As you pointed out, Nazi's forced _other_ people to wear badges.

When was the last time you saw a US politician not wearing a small badge of the US flag on their lapel? Or a news announcer on one of the government's favoured channels? How would you feel if every member of the Houses of Parliament went about with tiny Union Jack flags on their lapels the whole time? Or even worse, tiny St. George's crosses. You're right, the Nazis did make other people wear badges, but they were deeply in love with wearing badges themselves, and they loved symbolism. Check out the design for the new US 55 cent stamp. Interestingly, it's the same eagle design they're planning to use for armbands for the Freedom Corps (a kinda Homeland Security Neighbourhood Watch scheme... shudder)

Yes, that's a bundle of rods the eagle's clutching, more commonly known as fasces. Ever wonder were the word fascism came from?

"My guess," wrote Norman Mailer recently, "is that, like it or not, or want it or not, we are going to go to war because that is the only solution Bush and his people can see. The dire prospect that opens, therefore, is that America is going to become a mega-banana republic where the army will have more and more importance in our lives. And, before it is all over, democracy, noble and delicate as it is, may give way . . . Indeed, democracy is the special condition that we will be called upon to defend in the coming years. That will be enormously difficult because the combination of the corporation, the military and the complete investiture of the flag with mass spectator sports has set up a pre-fascist atmosphere in America already."

 

[xane]

FYI Amnesty International, or Normal Mailer, does not have the final say in what liberty is and isn't, as I said, it is one point of view.

So, we have finally established America is not "nationalist", the most important factor being direct government control of industry. And as for industry control of government, I am failing to see the problem with that, stop changing the subject.

Is Bush's grandfather standing for president as well ? No, so what the fuck has that got to do with anything, oh yes, perhaps it's another wacky phenomena of yours that "trading with facists" is a generically inherited trait.

You really are trying to push the point about "badges = nazi". You can yell all you want about nazis loving their badges, but that does not imply that badge wearing is the sign of a nazi, its such a fucking simple concept.

The word facism comes from the Italian Nationalist Party of Mussolini, derived from the symbol you describe. But the "fasces" (a bundle of sticks) are associated with Republicanism and authority, from the days of the Romans, and outdates both facism and America by hundreds of years.

In fact the fasces were in use by America on coinage and government building _before_ European facism was on the rise. In fact, more commonly, "fasces" refers to a bundle of sticks wrapped around an axe, yet I don't see an axe on that stamp.

 

[Mofo8]

I REALLY don't want to keep this thread going and going, but...

I'd just like to finish off my participation in this thread by quoting the following. I'll leave it up to people to decide if the USA meets some, none or all of these indicators.

The 14 Defining Characteristics Of Fascism
by Dr. Laurence Britt

Dr. Laurence Britt has examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia) and several Latin American regimes. Britt found 14 defining characteristics common to each:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism -
Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights -
Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause -
The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

4. Supremacy of the Military -
Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5. Rampant Sexism -
The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homo-sexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

6. Controlled Mass Media -
Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

7. Obsession with National Security -
Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined -
Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

9. Corporate Power is Protected -
The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed -
Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts -
Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment -
Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption -
Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

14. Fraudulent Elections -
Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

I myself reckon they get about 11 out of 14 outright, and are making progress towards the full set.

 

[Paradroid]

Out of interest, what badge did you wear ?

heh, Ivan, I think you answered that just fine.

I think human psychology is being exploited with all kinds of imagery, it's just advertising on different levels. What we should all be aware of is the intent (obviously).

/rant
Our reactions since 9/11 are making the future worse, not better. The stuff people have been saying against our current actions (& policies) are only intended to make the present (& future) a better place for everyone to live in.

I'll probably now get the argument that (ahem) "They started it!!!", referring of coure to terrorists and/or Kuwait. In essence, I don't bloody care who did what to who, I simply know this; what we are doing now is wrong, it's going to make things worse.

I really did laugh out loud when I read on another thread people actually defending Camp Delta. The people against the Camp (and all that it represents) would defend you if you were in the camp, but, you wouldn't defend us if we were in it?! (Anyway, how would you know who's even there, under the current rules?)

There's a lot of knowledge here, but where's the wisdom?
Or empathy for fellow humans?

The futures not bright, but it may well turn orange.

rant/

 

[xane]

You now need to read Dr Britt's book then, after all you've been taken in by the advert for it.

 

[mr.Blacky]

Actually Mofo8 you are forgetting one point, facism believes in having one strong man in power. You can say what ever you want but George W Bush aint that.

 

[Driwen]

I REALLY don't want to keep this thread going and going, but...

I'd just like to finish off my participation in this thread by quoting the following. I'll leave it up to people to decide if the USA meets some, none or all of these indicators.



I myself reckon they get about 11 out of 14 outright, and are making progress towards the full set.

fascism or national socialism most important point is that the state is more important than the individual. As far as I know in the USA that is the opposite.

Also nationalism isnt a defining note of fascism, off course it has it. However so have many other forms of goverment even true democracies.
A part of USA is religious and off course that is something you will see back in the goverment and it also leads to there inacceptance of homosexual mariages. However I dont see the USA being against female equal rights, which is something a Fascist state would be as it would be best for the state (atleast in their eyes) if females would be take care of the kids.

paradriod what do you propose how we should have responded then? Ignore Al Qaeda attacks and let them keep targetting innocent lives?
What we are doing right now is certainly not the best solution, but atleast we are trying to find one. Also if Iraq actually does become a democratic state than that would actually help fight Al Qaeda. Also stopping the blind support of Isreal would help aswell, but I dont have alot of power over that.

 

[xane]

Outside the realms of dust jackets, here are some _real_ definitions of Facism:

dictionary.com

A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.

Score, USA: zero

wikipedia.com

The word fascism has come to mean any system of government resembling Mussolini's, that exalts nation and often race above the individual, and uses violence and modern techniques of propaganda and censorship to forcibly suppress political opposition, engages in severe economic and social regimentation, and espouses nationalism and sometimes racism (ethnic nationalism).

Score, USA: nil (not doing too well here)

encarta.com

Fascism rejects liberal ideas such as freedom and individual rights, and often presses for the destruction of elections, legislatures, and other elements of democracy.

Score, USA: zilch (go USA !)

Also, you can try my "google test" on the text of your quote and find it all leading to one man, I wont spoil your surprize and tell you his name, but he does have a book coming out soon.

 

[Mofo8]

I promised myself I wouldn't get further drawn into this, but I must make one clarification. The novel you're refering to was actually published in June 1998, so what's your point? His list of 14 defining characteristics of fascism was published in the Spring of 2003.

Are you trying to say that because he's published a novel he can't have seriously studied fascism?

I can't even be arsed arguing with your 3 dictionary quotes. I see bits of them that apply to the United States of America. You don't. End of story.

One final question for you though. What are your own politics?

 

[Driwen]

I can't even be arsed arguing with your 3 dictionary quotes. I see bits of them that apply to the United States of America. You don't. End of story.

but do you think that the USA believes that the state is more important than the individual as that is atleast one of the basis of fascism.

 

[xane]

I don't know, I've decided to admire Dr Britt and apply his thesis to that well known bastion of fascism - Manchester United Football Club.

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism -

Britt associates this with flag waving and symbolism, a rampant feature amongst football fans in general, but MUFC go out of their way to get their team colours in every damn country in the world.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights -

David Beckham was incarcerated against his will for years, until he escaped to Spain and freedom from tyranny. We continue to pray for Giggs and Scholes, one day, one day ...

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause -

Fergusons diatribes are typical of this, blaming everyone from the Referee to the FA, from fog to kit colour, anyone apart from himself, when his players decide to become donkeys for the day.

4. Supremacy of the Military -

In MUFC its actually "supremacy of the midfield", but its the same thing, really.

5. Rampant Sexism -

Any females in the team ? Apart from Ronaldo.

6. Controlled Mass Media -

MUFC TV anyone ?

7. Obsession with National Security -

Every year, the obsessive drive to secure a national championship and keep the european money rolling in.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined -

Try to question the unswerving faith and loyalty of the masses of MU fans around the world, yes it really is a religion.

9. Corporate Power is Protected -

Did I say MUFC, I meant MU PLC of course.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed -

Labor is spelt wrong, so I'm skipping this one.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts -

You can't get more disdain for intellect than having Roy Keene on the team.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment -

It certainly is an obsession amongst MUFC players and managers, to commit crimes and evade punishment. Next time you go speeding along the hard shoulder and excuse it as a bowel condition, see how far you get.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption -

Neville brothers - fit both descriptions.

14. Fraudulent Elections -

When was the last time you voted for Ferguson ?


So there you have it, Heil Fergie and all that.

 

[Stazbumpa]

but do you think that the USA believes that the state is more important than the individual as that is at least one of the basis of fascism.

I'm confused, I thought the state HAS to be more important than the individual or else you'll never get anything to work. If we all went round having our every individual need listened to then the state, and civilised life, would grind to a halt.

Or have I got the wrong end of your point?

 

[Driwen]

I'm confused, I thought the state HAS to be more important than the individual or else you'll never get anything to work. If we all went round having our every individual need listened to then the state, and civilised life, would grind to a halt.

Or have I got the wrong end of your point?

meant that in a democracy the state is there in the end for the individual. The right of an individual is more important than the state. \

For example it would be good to lock up a possibly innocent person who has a shadowy background atleast from the state perspecitve, but in a democracy we respect the right of the individual more so we need proof.
Also it would be good for the state to (mildly?) force people to follow certain carreerplans, but as we hold the individual above the state we dont do that.

For the state things like freedom is only a hinder, but for a person it isnt.

 

[Ivan]

What about the states right to lock you in a cell for 24 hours without any explanation ?