Ideas from America...

[old.DrunK MonK]

just some ideas/questions from a "yank"

1. Why do all the European TFC leagues have the same format? Always split into the same divisions, same scheduling type, same scoring system. Why not use, say, hightest score for a match wins? Instead of playing 2 different maps for a win, loss, or draw, play one map for the whole match (war) with the total score deciding the winner. Most US leagues follow this format, and it's lots of fun. Also the European leagues follow the same format, as far as seasons go. US leagues are all different. For example, the Top10Tourney (www.top10tourney.net) plays double elimination, so the last clan with fewer than 2 losses wins that round. The Team Fortress League (www.tfleaue.com) uses weekly schedules to find the best teams, and after 12 weeks has a playoff to decide the winner. The Stronger than All and Iron Glove Leagues (www.stronger.org, http://www.ironglove.com) are simple ladders, with ongoing schedules and champions changing every few weeks most of the time. And the Online Gaming League (www.ogl.org) uses a system in which lower ranked clans can challenge clans 10% above them to get a better position.

2. Why not more maps? Seems like I always see a very short map list on the European leagues' map pages. Always 2fort, well, cz2, openfire, monkey_1, and maybe a few others. There are a whole TON of maps out there, why not play them? Plus, most of the maps I see played in European leagues are low-scoring maps. Seems like you could play more high scoring maps for more exciting games.

3. Just a question from somebody who's never been in a European clan match: What is the general European style of play like? To give something to compare with, most US clans use a 4 Offense 5 Defense setup, with lots of soldiers, 2 HWs, and maybe 2 Engineers. The Offense is usually nothing but Medics and Soldiers (sometimes Scouts, like on cz2). Matches are usually somewhat low scoring, and there are is a group of about 5-6 VERY good clans that just dominate week in and week out.

4. Have you people heard about CE and KiN? I just ask because they're thought of as pretty much the 2 best clans EVER for TFC, although they're both retired. Right now the best are 100k Devil Legion 100k.d.l, the San Dawgs |SD|, and Pyroclastic Flow PF.

Sorry for the long post, I just had to ask those questions. Besides, you Europeans are smarter than us Americans, right? So a little reading is no problem

 

[old.Gimp]

1) The league standard you see in most UK leagues is similar to our national football league, and is tried and tested; we know it works. I can't comment on many european leagues because I have only really seen one. BWTFCL is soon to be changing it's league system for the upcoming season, and it looks like a good idea. Well done whoever thought of it, Odyssey I think it was (lol joke vizzy ).

2) Custom maps, imo on the whole, don't play as well as valve maps, which is why only very good custom ones seem to be played over here. Although this is changing as the new UKTFCL season is incorparating many new custom maps, forums.far2cool.com, to see what that lot are like.

3) 8v8 is most common. 4 offence 4 defence on most maps by most clans, although that does differ from map to map, and you always get some clans that play 5/6 defence on all maps . Anymore than 6 defence is considered particularly lame, and more than 1 HW is frowned upon. A typical 2fort defence would be soldier top of spiral, soldier bottom of spiral/in basement, soldier or HW on lift, and engy in basement. Offences are meds and soljas mostly, with spies, scouts, and demos thrown in depending on a clans members (I play scout every map not just cz2 ).

4) Most of us have heard of these US clans that are "the best in the world", but no one will ever know who really is better until trans-atlantic connections become playable. The best clans in europe are probably DW, *TJ*, UE, =BC=. But there are many many clans of around equal level just below their level. http://www.clan-zone.net/etfcl is supposedly the best european league I think. It's invite only.

Buhbye.

 

[old.TGC Snow]

1) Clanbase uses the overall points scoring system. It's considered unfair by many clans because it gives an advantage to clans who are better on high-scoring maps. e.g. if one clan 0wnz rock2, and the other 0wnz openfire, the openfire clan will win, even if both are of similar standard. A lot of ppl do enjoy clanbase, though, coz as u said different systems add a bit of variety.

2) Same as Gimp...

3) ditto

4) There's no real proof that these US clans should be the best in the world, nor, for that matter, the best Euro clans. I think any clan which does describe itself as best in the world is a severely f**ked up one (no offence to CE or KiN intended, coz afaik it was other ppl who gave them that tag). UE, a top Euro clan once played CE (i think), but from what i can recall, the US leg was won by CE, and the Euro leg by UE....

The European scene used to be dominated by just a few clans, but now there are about 15-20 top clans who can all beat each other on their day.

 

[Afx]

I personally think 9v9 doesnt work too well ,Mainly cos,Like u said the 5 d 4 o tactic being predominant,As far as i can work out in US leagues 2fort is regarded as a boring map,Whereas over here its quite high scoring.The fact that you play 9v9 also seems to have pushed your leagues in the direction of larger maps...and quite frankly(after lookin at the TTT page) quite a lotve of em are badly made :/,Like Gimp says,We like to stick to well made custom maps :E
I will admit that 3 major UK leagues using the same old format does get a little dull,But i dont see the US system as having any particular advantadges over the one we use and certainly wouldnt want to move over to playin 9v9.
Onto the point about the top Us clans,Well id say that SD wouldnt be any better than the likes of DW and UE..perhaps worse (but i guess we'll never find out).
The overall level of European clan play does seem better than that in us leagues tho(imho),For the simple reason that so many top euro clans are of a similiar very high level,Whereas in the US SD seem to beat everyone quite easily.
Just my opinion on the matter anyway

 

[vuz]

I was just about to make the clanbase point when I saw Snow's already made it..

The other thing I would like to say is I'm fed up to fuck of hearing the US clans are the best in the world, its a possibility but as so few US clans are willing to play our clans then its not something thats proven, being the best in the US and in the world are 2 v different things imo

umm, ya

 

[old.DrunK MonK]

kewl

Alright thanks I'm smarter today than I was yesterday

to Gimp: I agree that the majority of custom maps don't play very well. However, I do think that maps such as mulch_trench, Darkness, and the newly released Vidars establish a new standard for map quality that Valve would do well to match. Not to mention the fact that most of the maps in which Valve has tried something new have been failures in terms of gameplay (Spambowl, Spamvanti, Warpath, the exception being Flag Run). And you're right about 2forts, I can speak for most of the top american clans when I say that I think it's a lousy, overplayed map.

As far as the "best clan" thing goes, I didn't intend to start a flame war, because I know for a fact that all the top clans (US and European) out there destroy me . Although it's hard to argue against KiN, having a final record of something like 114-11 without ever practicing officialy, and many of it's members not using Roger Wilco or Battlecomm.

 

[old.TGC Snow]

9v9 and 8v8 are very very different. euro clans will only play 5-man D if they think the 3-man offence has a chance of capping (and the switch from 4->3-man offence is a big one), so u can get high-scoring games on maps such as 2fort. obviously there are some clans who don't conform - we've been using 5-man D a lot recently, and we are still among the highest cappers (and highest cap conceders =]) in the premiership )

i don't mean to start a flame war with u, coz u're obviously looking at this whole thing objectively and without bias, so lemme see... basically, i'll say that:

D-walk's record is/was even more outstanding than KiN's.

That KiN got that record without using any voice comms is possibly a sign of the level of competition they faced, rather than their own skill.

And finally, it'll be a very long time (if ever) before anyone can ever have even a 50% claim to being the best clan in the world.

 

[old.[DW]LoneGun]

I think you will find that KiN's record pales in comparison to ours
Wins 209
Draws 25
Losses 18
Pts For 29953
Pts Against 8519

and we have only started using voice comms in the last 2 months or so. This doesn't mean anything when compared to US clans though as until we can play on a level field at a LAN etc no-one can claim to be the worlds best.
LG


[Edited by [DW]LoneGun on 14-12-00 at 12:05]

 

[old.=BC=Revz]

ffs last post got eaten by stupid forums

Anyway to address the first post :

1. Our leagues don't all have the same format. ClanBase is run much like the OGL. Those that do have a format that works and is popular, just like the US formats work for you. As I remember (although I may be wrong), the idea for playing the same map on 2 servers is because in the US it can be harder to find a neutral one. That way each clan can play the same map "home" and "away" and you add up the points to find the winner. Here in Europe we can get both clans on a decent server for both of them and play different maps.

2. New maps are coming in for new seasons, bear in mind that EU leagues are a few months behind US ones.

3. We probably favour attacking more than what you describe from the US. Hence, less defence and more light classes in attack. Scout is coming back into vogue, although just about every class short of HW gets used in attack (even engineer ).

4. I have heard of CE and KiN, indeed I knew some of CE's players and have had the oppurtunity to play with them a few times. I would hesitate to call them the best clans ever though, certainly good in their situation.

Now to your latest post :

D-Walk have a much better record than KiN.

DW have a better record than KiN and have played nearly twice as many games.

According to Blashys own TFC records site (I assume you know who he is ) the record for most matches is held by SD at about 140ish. Look at DW or any decent Euro clan and that will be blown away. =BC= must have over 170 matches at least.

/me directs you to LGs post

=BC= have never used voice comms of any sort. Nor have we practiced (as far as I can remember). In fact I don't even have any text binds for use during matches.

 

[old.[DW]LoneGun]

Whats Practice??

LG

 

[old.Andy]

Hmmmm, but do you use joysticks instead of mice. I can vouch for the fact that most of A&I do. In fact half of us still use pgup/pgdown for aiming.

 

[old.=BC=Revz]

It is rumoured that LG uses a modified form of the Sega Bass fishing rod (for movement) and the Sega Marraccas (for firing *shake*shake*)