Heretic possible in high end RvR group?

[Andrilyn]

I was thinking about making some group with a heretic in it as I hardly see groups that run with a Heretic and I was thinking about a setup like this:

Cleric 40 enh 36 rej (decent rebuffs, all vital shears, nice heals, good group insta and normal heal).
Cleric 42 enh 33 rej (capped rebuffs, all vital shears, decent heals).
Friar 49 enh 44 rej rest parry (BG, Resists, Base rebuffs, ST, ML styles, Group HoT).
Heretic 50 enh 48 rej 21 crush rest shield (interrupts, base rebuffs, Monster rez, BAoD, DI, PR).
Sorc Mind spec (Mez, debuff, demez, mez reduction chant).
Sorc Body spec (Backup mez, nukes, damage debuff, debuffs, speed, demez).
Theurg Air spec (Pet interrupt, nukes, BAoD).
Cabby split spec (NS, ML9 pet, Disease, damage debuff, nukes).

It's a bit based upon a Hib setup as you got 4 (kinda) support and 4 (well 3 and a half as mind sorc can't nuke that much) nukers for plain damage and the theurg is also nice for the interrupts.
Anyone have any experience with this kind of setup or would it be a waste of time?
Please point out the Pro's and Con's without too much flame

 

[Vladamir]

The one person you didn't want a response from!.

With heretic as your only banelord its a bit touch and go imo. Heretic's are normally beaming and whatnot in larger scale fights, but doing so means they can't use banelord shouts. Personally i think it needs switching about a little more.

Perhaps run;

Cleric x2
Sorc
Merc
Friar
Theu
Cabby
Heretic

That way you've got 2x banelord where needed

 

[Andrilyn]

Well yes but Mercs always run out of healing range
Thought the Theurg(pets) + Heretic(AoE snare beam) + mind sorc(mez spam) all (semi) interrupting would cover for the loss of 1 banelord.
Only thing I am not sure of is if this setup got enough damage, most of the classes I put in have to either spam interrupt or pets or disease + NS so I don't know if the damage will be ok as a Heretic can't be classed as a damage dealer because most people aren't dumb enough to stay inside the beam unless they are MoC'ing.

 

[kirennia]

Heretank vs. caster tic in FG fights.

The ae snare as nice as it is, can be easily interupted as well with just about anything and so isn't really something which you can rely on (unless you can MoC which I'll get to later). If you consider that the first tick will do 90 ish damage, it may well ramp upto 300 before it's interupted but that's still not a significant amount really for a spell which is on a 3second hardcap between ticks.

A heretank with 10rej will have the ae snare as well just without the damage. Spamming it instead of focusing, DOESN'T stop the snare component from taking effect as it works differently in rvr compared to pve. With 349dex I at the moment cast at roughly 1.45seconds every time I cast the spell so will get 2 casts off in the time a 48rej tic will get 1 tic off. This more then makes up for the resists you will get as you're using a lower level spell. It also means that you can spam it for hours if you want, you wont ever run out of power. Firing MoC for either of the specs to interupt will reduce the damage down close to zero so theres no real difference in their capabilities for mass interupting there.

Monster res is in my opinion, way overrated in FG combat as all it does is interupt and break CC. The question is, is the freshly ressed character going to be more use being a monster for 30seconds and then on full power and zero health OR are you going to be better off with them PRed and straight back into the action. If they're better off as a monster in a fight then you probably shouldn't have that class in the group anyway

The next issue is the banelord interupts. With a rej tic standing at the back of the field, they aren't going to be using their banelords to interupt the enemy casters, unless the enemy are very badly placed. A heretank will however be in the same situation as a merc, using them to the full on the enemy support/casters.

Damage output. This part basically comes down to flex styles vs. caster tic damage focus in this part. Levi and indigo is great for an assist train. Add in paralyze too if there's no reaver in the assist train and you have a 6second stun too. Getting the styles off comes with practice as every reaver will know but when you do, you're hitting in the region of 400-500 on a tank and 500-600 on a caster at capped swing speed.

A rej tics focus once broken takes around 7 and a half seconds to start doing similar damage (cast(1.5), tic (4.5), tic (7.5)). It can however be interupted by amnesia (0.8second cast) any stray tank, DoTs stop it ramping for every tick and even throw weapons will stop it. You could have a BGer to help you but then you're taking up 2 spots to get out your damage which wont compare to a sorc for example.

Defence. This isn't really an issue. Okay so a flextic will have 15ish more in sheild (my tic has 27 sheild) but that doesn't make much difference duel wielders are on you. Rej tics with PR are however in a better position to fire it, making freshly ressed people hopefully appear not near the enemy I'm not sure if casting instas stops their focus or not though?



Anyway I'm rabbling a bit now; we all know rej tics are great at keep/tower takes, there is no arguing that but for FG rvr, I'd go with a heretank everytime. Unbiased view point of course

 

[Raven]

hard enough as it is to get decent damage output into a alb fg, no place for a jack of all trades (master of none)

 

[kirennia]

har denough as it is to get decent damage output into a alb fg, no place for a jack of all trades (master of none)

I still don't get why people refer to them as a jack of all trades. It makes a great tank with defensive RAs for the group. Roughly the same damage as a reaver (Slightly more) and it's banelord. It also makes up for the lack of a 3rd healer in albion groups with DI, PR, BAoD and 75%magic resists no?

edit:
Cleric
Cleric
Sorc
Cabby
Merc
Merc
Merc (or BGer)
Heretank

Wheres the flaw in that group?

 

[eggy]

Cleric
Cleric
Sorc
Cabby
Merc
Merc
Merc (or BGer)
Heretank

Wheres the flaw in that group?

No elemental resists?
No theurg
No slam
No speed5
etc

Oh wait, that's most/all Alb grps

 

[kirennia]

No elemental resists?
No theurg
No slam
No speed5
etc

Oh wait, that's most/all Alb grps

No elemental resists but instead you've got 75%magic immunity 45seconds every 15mins as well as 2xBAOD for 30secs every 10 minutes. For FG warfare, this should be more then enough.

As for no therg, a bainshee will kill a thergs pets in 1 cone nuke. And for interupts there are 4 banelords there instead as well as a cabby nearsighting, sorc mezz/rooting on interupt duty and 2xpets.

No slam, heretank has a 6second back positional stun, mercs also have their 5second stun chain too. And the instant snare is invaluable for catching a target slightly out of range. Not to mention asp when that's down so they wont get away and be able to get a cast off as they turn.

No speed5 isn't such a big issue. Mids don't often run with skalds, albs don't often run with mincers. So it might be useful for catching the odd soloer but laying a speedwarp and having the enemy come into range at run speed is a sure way to get mezz off anyway

For all of what you just said, you'd need mincer, pally(or reaver), therg, friar...not to mention you need a sorc and 2 clerics and 1 other but wheres that groups damage output?

 

[Righthandof]

No elemental resists but instead you've got 75%magic immunity 45seconds every 15mins as well as 2xBAOD for 30secs every 10 minutes.

No slam, heretank has a 6second back positional stun, mercs also have their 5second stun chain too.

1. ive thought heretics have only some extra magic to only a few classes(the one that can bind at keep lords)

2. good luck getting back positionals off in rvr.. or chains.. and all these for 5/6 sec stun.. GG !

oh, and heretics/mercs suxx without end regen. get a pally.

 

[Manisch Depressiv]

Yes, Heretics work in FG rvr.

 

[kirennia]

1. ive thought heretics have only some extra magic to only a few classes(the one that can bind at keep lords)

2. good luck getting back positionals off in rvr.. or chains.. and all these for 5/6 sec stun.. GG !

oh, and heretics/mercs suxx without end regen. get a pally.

1)It's basically everyone except casters and stealthers. So of that group, only the sorc and the cabby would be in danger but what from? 4 banelords should nullify most of their caster damage and if any enemy MA train is formed, the ae snare (with MoC) will soon put a stop to them as well.

2) People still really struggle with that? Levi/indigo backup or paralyze/indigo backup all the way. And asp the long range style works from any angle. I fail to see why you're frown down on a 6second stun when it means 3 levis =1500damage.

As for the end regen comment, never heard of second wind and end regen pots?

 

[Andrilyn]

I just find it such a shame that Heretics hardly get a RvR group as their rr5 alone will win battles especially against a heavy caster group.
I duo'ed some with a rr5 Heretic some time ago and when we faced Pip's Warlock zerg (3-4 warlocks) when they unloaded everything it barely did damage (like 30-70 damage a chamber/nuke).
But I guess basically every setup will work aslong as you have people playing that know what they are doing