Goa serious question about (Radar/Macroing/ect)

[Melachi]

A friend of mine the other day saw me reading the post below about the Macro Crafter who got banned the other day and got real worried. You see he's a Layer/or some Legal thingy anyway and he plays DAoC from the same PC he works on, and just for the record he doesnt Radar or Macro Craft(infact he doesnt craft at all ) anyway because he plays from the same PC he works on hes worried that you may use some sort of Drive-Scan software to detect cheaters, if this is true he has to stop or buy a new computer because not only is it unethical but hes unsure wether its legal or not to have his Client's data being scanned, albeit for a totally unrelated reason.

He had to stop playing Team Fortress Classic a while ago too because of the same reason, anyone who remebers HLGuard the anticheat software that scanned your pc for cheat files.

Anyway its a serious matter because he could be breaking the law by allowing others to access private data.

[Edit] Also after reading I noticed that you said one of your methods of catching macro's was down to the timing of craft requests ect.. you know like
mm:ss:milis
00:00:01 button pressed
00:02:01 button pressed <- not humanly capable obviously a macro

but because of internet latency the only way for this to be accurate is if you use client log's, if this is the case it could be ilegal for my friend to continue playing :O

Thanks

 

[Driwen]

[Edit] Also after reading I noticed that you said one of your methods of catching macro's was down to the timing of craft requests ect.. you know like
mm:ss:milis
00:00:01 button pressed
00:02:01 button pressed <- not humanly capable obviously a macro

but because of internet latency the only way for this to be accurate is if you use client log's, if this is the case it could be ilegal for my friend to continue playing :O

Thanks

uhm how can it be illegal for a game to report when keys in game were pressed on the clientside?
I dont think daoc can detect wether you are pressing a button outside the game or if you alt tab out of it even (or daox, a window prog that allowed you to window daoc before it was allowed, would have been detectable?).

 

[Minimez]

Dont play at work?

 

[Driwen]

Dont play at work?

maybe the guy also works at home and only has one decent pc?

 

[Melachi]

uhm how can it be illegal for a game to report when keys in game were pressed on the clientside?
I dont think daoc can detect wether you are pressing a button outside the game or if you alt tab out of it even (or daox, a window prog that allowed you to window daoc before it was allowed, would have been detectable?).

No it wouldnt be ilegal, well actually im not sure but I dont think so if it just sent packets like (b.u.t.t.o.n p.r.e.s.s.e.d a.t 1:03:04 <-they look somethin like that I think ), but if GoA scan your drive for your logs to check, he could get into some serious stuff about private files being open to outside sources or somethin.

[Edit]Yes he has his Garage converted to an Office so he works at home, and yes only one decent PC, well really its not very decent at all

 

[Meduza]

btw if he IS a lawyer of some sort then i see no reason why he cannot afford a new comp

but i agree, goa (or any1 else) shouldnt scan one's pc etc

 

[Melachi]

btw if he IS a lawyer of some sort then i see no reason why he cannot afford a new comp

but i agree, goa (or any1 else) shouldnt scan one's pc etc

Not 100% sure if he is a lawyer, is something like that anyway and hehe yeah I know I said this too him, specially since he just bought a nice new BMW

I think its ok for GOA to scan peoples PC's, but they should warn you first, dont think its mentioned in CoC/Eula or any of those other things.

 

[Tilda]

iirc they dont scan files, they detect stuff through server side logs (they cant force you to press L in game can they?) and having the program report if anything else access its processes in memory.
I could be wrong on this, but it may even be illegal for them to scan your drive without your consent/without telling you.

Tilda

 

[Alan]

There were posts on VNBoards about this.

If you ever ping the camelot servers, youll notice the latency is well under a second, its going to be pretty clear that you are using a macro app if you repeatily craft every 5 seconds, yes ok the logs will show 5.001 and 5.023 and 5.012 seconds... etc... this would be nearly impossible from a human, GoA have always stated that they never ban people without proof.

As for the scanning, Mythic clearly stated on VNBoards that they do not scan the client pc as this would be ilegal, its alsmost certain that they scan for any application hooking into their DLL's or memory space, after all this is where Radar gets its information from. But this is not a scan of "running" applications as apparently this is also ilegal, its just monitoring its own system to see what hooks into it.

Just my two cents.

Dont cheat and you have nothing to fear, and dont worry about Mythic/GoA scanning your PC as im sure this doesnt happen.

 

[IainC]

We don't scan peoples' hard drives. Neither do we get any clientside info that isn't part of the game datastream. You push a button on your PC and your client sends a message to the server that the button has been pressed. We log that message and not any client side logs or other files.

 

[Meduza]

iirc

what does "iirc" mean btw ?

 

[Loch]

if I remember correctly ;o

 

[Anastasia]

what does "iirc" mean btw ?

If I remember correctly

 

[Ctuchik]

can we close this now? we dont need 2 threads stating the exact same shit all over again...

 

[Alan]

Radar Detection

Knew i saw this somewhere, heres a quote from one of the forums used by one of the radar authors.

It doesn't have anything to do with the datastream or network traffic at all. To explain it in non-technical real world terms: Think of daoc (game.dll) like a car. When you start the game and load it into memory, you are "taking the car out for a spin". xxxxxx (the xxxxxxx server component actually, as well as xxxxxxx) are like kids on skateboards that grab onto the rear bumper and hitch a ride. Right now, you can think of the car as being driven by a monkey. He doesn't notice or care anything about what may or may not be attached to the car. If Mythic wanted to, they could put a concerned parent with a cell phone in the back seat to watch behind for naughty little kids on skateboards.

I really like quote - it explains in really simple terms, and it refers to Mythic and monkeys in the same sentance <giggle> anyway, it looks like Mythic have placed that grown up in the car and given him a spanking new mobile to report all the kids tryna get a free ride, and about time too.

 

[Ctuchik]

Knew i saw this somewhere, heres a quote from one of the forums used by one of the radar authors.



I really like quote - it explains in really simple terms, and it refers to Mythic and monkeys in the same sentance <giggle> anyway, it looks like Mythic have placed that grown up in the car and given him a spanking new mobile to report all the kids tryna get a free ride, and about time too.

u know, that acually made sence.....

ok one good thing came out of this thread, still dont need to have 2 topics discussing same things tho

 

[kelind]

I suspect this would be an area full of problems for any company doing this...invasion of privacy could lead to a very expensive law suit.

 

[Meduza]

Does this radar in any way alter game.dll ? or any other game file for that matter ? or is it just a 3rd party program ?

 

[Melachi]

u know, that acually made sence.....

ok one good thing came out of this thread, still dont need to have 2 topics discussing same things tho

They aint the same thats why I made a new post, this one is specifically about Drive-Scans and the effect they can have on peoples computers. And just fyi, I didnt make this post for your entertainment.

Does this radar in any way alter game.dll ? or any other game file for that matter ? or is it just a 3rd party program ?

Its just a packet sniffer I think, and just builds on what the servers are allready sending the computer.

 

[Meduza]

Its just a packet sniffer I think, and just builds on what the servers are allready sending the computer.

If so, Goa cant rly ban

 

[Devaster]

as i said in some other post b4.

there are few "radar" programs for daoc and they all work different.

1. some are for windows os and work on same pc with daoc monitoring network traffic.

2. some are reading directly pc's memory with daoc info.

3. some are running on separate pc wich also can be used as router/firewall and sniffing all traffic on certain port.

Nr. 3 is impossible to detect, only way is a GM should personal monitor the player for odd movements. But this monitoring cant be considered proof.
The player can find 1001 reasons why he made that movement like inc lag, luck, some mate told me etc etc.

In the other words: U can find in any logs server side/client side with proof that the connection was sniffed.

Only way is strong encryption with key changing every few days with a small patch.

 

[Morchaoron]

He had to stop playing Team Fortress Classic a while ago too because of the same reason, anyone who remebers HLGuard the anticheat software that scanned your pc for cheat files.

hated those, got banned from servers because of it when i didnt even have these cheats installed...


fortunately i had 11 cd keys har har

 

[Ctuchik]

If so, Goa cant rly ban

erm, yes they can. they did it just a week or so ago and have done so on quite a few occations...

and if ur so enlighted in "buisness law" then show me the bloody link that says that online game companies cant ban players!

i'm still waiting!

 

[Ctuchik]

Does this radar in any way alter game.dll ? or any other game file for that matter ? or is it just a 3rd party program ?

it doesent matter what it alters! U CANT USE RADARS IN GAME!

i cant believe ur acually defending those retards!! starting to believe ur using that shit urself!

 

[Meduza]

I wont rly get into this again as it is being "discussed" in another thread.

But to help u from displaying ur ignorance again consider this:

"Microsoft says no1 can use any 3rd party program if they wanna run Windows! If u dont accept this, u cannot run Windows and have to run another OS."

Now, tell me... Whats the difference from Goa saying u cant run 3rd party programs and Microsoft saying u cant run 3rd party programs... ?!

 

[Meduza]

it doesent matter what it alters! U CANT USE RADARS IN GAME!

I too think they should be banned!

i cant believe ur acually defending those retards!! starting to believe ur using that shit urself!

Im not defending them. Im just speaking my mind of whats right and wrong.

 

[Ctuchik]

I wont rly get into this again as it is being "discussed" in another thread.

But to help u from displaying ur ignorance again consider this:

"Microsoft says no1 can use any 3rd party program if they wanna run Windows! If u dont accept this, u cannot run Windows and have to run another OS."

Now, tell me... Whats the difference from Goa saying u cant run 3rd party programs and Microsoft saying u cant run 3rd party programs... ?!

well. because thats 2 VERY diffrent things. microsoft OS isnt a MMOG for starters. and its BUILT for using 3:rd party programs in it.

if DAoC was BUILT for radars or macro crafting or speed hacking they would build that themself and implement it in the game fgs!

still waiting for a link to that "law"

 

[Melachi]

What I think Meduza is saying is that, a radar program thats running on another pc thats sinffing packets is as much a third party software as the router in your local ISP exchange, its just looking at whats passing through.

And regarding the third party thing, also is kind of a technicality, Windows, drivers, ect are all third party in relation to DAoC, really in truth in order for you not to be ever breaking the Eula technically you would have to have a computer that had nothing on it but DAoC (it would need to have an in built runtime enviroment also ;e ) nothing else, and a cable that went directly to the game servers from your house not passing through any routers.

But these are all nitty technicalities

 

[Morchaoron]

they didnt say anything about 4th party programs tho

 

[Meduza]

they didnt say anything about 4th party programs tho

tr00! We got 'em by teh balls!