Game Over ?

[pomalllka]

Seems a lot of ppl are bailing on DAOC. Was ToA the death of daoc ?

Poma

 

[Shanaia]

Seems a lot of ppl are bailing on DAOC. Was ToA the death of daoc ?

Poma

zzz this topic is getting old

 

[Smurflord]

People make threads on the forums when they leave.
People do not make thread when they start.
Can lead to a very imbalanced impression.

 

[Wai]

well said smurf

agree 100% whole heartidly
toa did spell the end for a lot of the old faces and hence were well known so we had big goodbye threads, but i'm willing to bet for every old face the left at least 2 new faces took there spot

toa was by no means the end of daoc just the start of a new era

 

[cHodAX]

People make threads on the forums when they leave.
People do not make thread when they start.
Can lead to a very imbalanced impression.

Truthfully, where are the new players? How hard is it for a new player to become established when the system punishes newcomers so hard? I have met 5 new players in the last year, sadly 3 of those left when they managed to get 50 after a hellish time leveling and then finding they can not compete in RvR. People might not be leaving by the truckload, or maybe they are and just more people have 2-3 accounts which is keeping the actual playing numbers artificially high?

 

[Soothsayer]

Evening

I have played DAoC since pretty much European release, actually thats a lie I started playing back then but left in January 2003, on the SC and Alchemy patch day to be accurate. Therefore I never got to even see Shrouded Isles coupled with the new tradeskills and their impact they had on the game.

I however returned in February 2004 for a completely fresh start and just under a month ago I dinged fifty. All fifty levels of xping the "proper" way (thus no pling) and I did not find it too difficult. Sure I already knew the concept and the foundations of the game after playing it so long before hand, but I still had to learn all the new SI additions. As well as this during my time levelling I came accross a fair few new players who I had the pleasure of grouping with.

So from the top, it may look like DAoC is a harsh place for newcomers, and in reality it is..Truly it's tough now, especially for levels 40+ which is made even worse if your class is not a Healer or Spiritmaster for Modernagrav groups. It is possible to prosper as a new player in DAoC though, and if you want to encourage more new players to stop this for told "Death of DAoC" then do you not think the bst way would be to stop the "ToA is killing off Camelot" threada? I personally think so...

Sooth

 

[cHodAX]

Soothsayer, the problem is that to compete on an even playing field now you need cash/artifacts/buffbot/spellcrafted/alchemied/RR5/ML's which takes 1000's of hours. Many new players grind it out to 50 and then realise that they are only a quarter of the way to being where they want to be. ToA forced alot of people back into PvE just to get back to a point where they could compete against enemy players on an even footing. That is a real detterent towards attracting new players and even more so when it comes to player retention. As I said in my previous post, player numbers in the EU have stayed fairly stable due to the large number of 2nd and 3rd accounts but the truth is that the real number of actual players is more like 30% lower than the official figures.

I have no problem with PvE but I do have a problem when it is forced upon us, the alternative is not to bother and end up being a whipping boy for all those who did the master levels and leveled thier artifacts. New players don't really find that out till they reach 50 and goto Emain to get obliterated for the first time, then they realise how unfriendly this game really is to new players.

 

[Sharma]

Half the time the ones who do make "IM LEAVING!!11" threads come back and start playing again.

From what i've seen theres only a small percentage of players in the EU who actually use the boards, although it seems like there's a lot quitting theres also a large amount of new players pouring into the game.

 

[cHodAX]

Half the time the ones who do make "IM LEAVING!!11" threads come back and start playing again.

From what i've seen theres only a small percentage of players in the EU who actually use the boards, although it seems like there's a lot quitting theres also a large amount of new players pouring into the game.

I have met 5 people who are totally new to the game in the last year and as you know I am a very friendly person so I would have expected to have met alot more in that time. All the supposedly new people I meet are people from Excal rolling alts. Nope, the truth is that very very few new players are taking up DAoC. The player figures are artificially high because the game promotes the useage of buffbots and powerlevling accounts.

Ask yourself this, how many people do you know that own 2 or more accounts? 60% of the people I know on Prydwen own at least 2 accounts nowadays. Hell even people who said they would never pay for a second account can now be found with buffbots and necro's. Grouping on Albion can be such a hassle at times that is is faster to level a necro to 50 and use that to powerlevel your main class. The game is fundamentally flawed as it stands, too easy for existing players and far too hard and unwelcoming for new players.

One last thing, if so many new people are joining and replacing those people leaving then where are they buying the game from? DAoC has zero visability on the shelves and in the press over here in the UK, no gaming magazine has a regular feature/column on DAoC but you can or could find them for old games like UO/EQ and newer games like SWG. Also where are all these new players leveling? It certainly isn't in Mithria/Keltoi/Catacombs/Salisbury Plains or the SI starter zones, sure there are lots of level 20 alts running around in crafted equipment but where are the real new players? I did a who for Keltoi and Mithria last week at primetime, know how many people where in there? Mithria empty and Keltoi had 3 people of which only 1 was under level 20.

This supposed influx of new players is a myth, maybe a handful of new players each week to replace the many that leave or go inactive for months at a time. Most of the new accounts are second accounts for existing players or bought accounts from players who have left. DAoC punishes new players, a well known fact and that is why any new player with sense buys an exisiting account rather than face the vast grind in a game where grouping for lower levels gets harder with each passing day.

 

[cHodAX]

Oh and you are right about only a small percentage of players using this board, yet you see so many goodbye threads. Doesn't it make you wonder how many people leave who don't use the board or the new players that play for 3 months and then realise that it will take at least a year to get to a competetive state.

Don't be fooled by the statistics, DAoC is not flourishing or even standing still. The powergamers with 2-3+ accounts are keeping DAoC alive and it will be interesting to see how long that lasts when WoW and the other promising new games ship. Remember that the only reason SWG wasn't a smash from day one is that it was bugged/no PvP/poorly supported. Don't expect Bliazzard to make that mistake.

 

[katt!]

Remember that the only reason SWG isn't a smash from day one is that it is bugged/no PvP/poorly supported.

Fixed it for you.

 

[Tzeentch]

Chodax, your theory/opinion sounds possible, but you have no figures to back up your claim.

I doubt that many people have buffbots and the like, certainly nowhere near the extent you suggest.

Last year when I bought SI, there was 3 copies at Electronics Boutique.

This year for ToA, there was 20 copies at GAME, they were sold out, HMV were sold out, the other GAME store was sold out, EB were sold out.

I know of maybe 5-7 people from Excal that are from Glasgow.

Thats a lot of new players or buffbots tbh in the past year.

 

[cHodAX]

Tzeentch, ToA is the addon and when you consider the 5000+ copies DAoC sold in the UK then it is to be expected that a roughly equivelant amount of ToA boxes would be shipped. The shelves are mostly empty now and there is no stock due in, I live in Manchester and not one copy (DAoC/SI or ToA) is to be found in one of the country's largest cities. For long periods in the last 12 months the classic and SI packs were unavailable anywhere, even now it is very hard to obtain them. How is the game to attract new players when there is no presence in game stores? How were all these supposed new players joining DAoC last year when you couldn't buy a copy from any store and even online? Don't get me wrong, I am not saying there are no new players but it is a trickle rather than a flood. As for my opinion on the amount of second accounts, well I base my numbers off the amount of people I know on Prydwen who have second accounts. Not hard evidence I know but it is a fast growing trend which has grown even faster since ToA because of the lack of groups in the usual exp'ing areas which is forcing more and more powerleveling of alts. It would be interesting to have a poll and see how many people are running 2+ accounts, sadly the answer wouldn't be definitive when so many players don't use the boards but it would give a general indication at least.

 

[Castus]

Totally agree with you Chodax and it`s a damn shame .I live in Nottingham and could`nt get TOA in any stores(eventually had to order off Play.com).Apparently stores were`nt replenishing once sold out of initial 5 copies.I also tried to buy it in Birmingham and the guy in Game Bullring had`nt even heard of it! i`m not fussed about the imbalance of rvr seeing as mainly pve anyway but did they have to make TOA so frustrating and boring? It`s sad really when you travel in classic areas or even the frontiers and see so much wasted space due to laziness and greed of the creators.I was travelling to Sauvage with my Hunter the other day and it brought back memories of camping Ellyls many moons ago when on Albion Pryd......did`nt see anyone there now ofc Think the only thing stopping me quitting is the lack of a better replacement or one that would inspire me to start from scratch atleast.

 

[Chrystina]

How were all these supposed new players joining DAoC last year when you couldn't buy a copy from any store and even online?

I started to play DAoC on 11th September 2003 after I received my copy from play.com
not sure if I should praise or curse that day

 

[Darzil]

At least two new players started recently, my wife and father in law.

In our journey to the heady heights of 8th level <grin>, we've met up and grouped with several people, some of whom I'm desperately hoping aren't alts (lack of knowledge being an acceptable excuse for their skills), and some of whom were obviously alts (using group tactics which only work when you have tanks with Protect).

Generally there are 5-10 characters under level 10 in Camelot Hills when we're on, although I guess we add 3 whenever we're on !

Darzil

 

[Pin]

I have met 5 new players in the last year

I was levelling a new char in Avalon City this weekend (Alb/Excal), joining regular groups. In those groups there were 4 level 50s (levelling artifacts), 3 others who claimed to have other level 50s, and over 20 who said that was their main/first char (in the 40s).... (Yes, I asked because I was curious).

If you have only met 5 'new' players in the last year I would suggest that is because you don't put yourself in the position to meet new players.

As was said above, you don't see posts here from new people joining, largely because it takes a while to get into the community and meet people. The vast majority of players never even see FH. The ones who post goodbye threads are generally ones who are known amongst this community, (or just attention-seeking). You may think you see 'a lot' of them, but do you really? 1 a day? Ask an admin how many people register on FH each day to begin posting in the DAoC sections...

As for requiring a lot of time/effort in order to 'compete on an even playing field' ? I think you'll find that the VAST majority of people play the game to play the game. New players are not looking to compete with powergamers - they are too busy learning, exploring, having fun and just playing a game. It's really only those who have been playing a few months who even think about 'competing', pretty much only once they have become established in certain communities. And even then, the majority of players still don't give a shit and just play the game to play the game.

People leave, people join, the playerbase remains steady and still we get these tired old threads from doom-sayers repeating the same biased viewpoints.

(The only thing I agree with is that there is piss-poor marketting and game availability - but you can buy it if you look)

 

[Alliandre]

There's 3 "completely new" players in our guild. I'd hardly say there's shortage of them (especially as our guild only has about 8 different people in it altogether).

And before I got the /level command about 2 weeks ago I grouped with a few people who were completely new to the game. Just try leveling a character from 1 again if you want to see new players.

 

[Svartmetall]

Soothsayer, the problem is that to compete on an even playing field now you need cash/artifacts/buffbot/spellcrafted/alchemied/RR5/ML's which takes 1000's of hours. Many new players grind it out to 50 and then realise that they are only a quarter of the way to being where they want to be. ToA forced alot of people back into PvE just to get back to a point where they could compete against enemy players on an even footing. That is a real detterent towards attracting new players and even more so when it comes to player retention. As I said in my previous post, player numbers in the EU have stayed fairly stable due to the large number of 2nd and 3rd accounts but the truth is that the real number of actual players is more like 30% lower than the official figures.

I have no problem with PvE but I do have a problem when it is forced upon us, the alternative is not to bother and end up being a whipping boy for all those who did the master levels and leveled thier artifacts. New players don't really find that out till they reach 50 and goto Emain to get obliterated for the first time, then they realise how unfriendly this game really is to new players.

All good points, but that's just asuming RvR is your goal as a player. A lot of people (RvR players will jump in and deny this heresy, but it's true) play DAOC primarily as a PvE game.

And if you like PvE, TOA gives you tons of things to do and places to go...plus Catacombs is a PvE expansion as well ...So while RvR fanatics proclaim "THE DEATH OF DAOC!!/!!!" just because they have to do (gasp! shock!) some PvE (oh noes! PvE in a MMORPG! THE SKY IS FALLING!!!) to get the new TOA toys so they can WTFPWN again in RvR, the rest of us will get on with enjoying the rest of the game (and they still won't accept that they'd really be much happier playing Quake Team Deathmatch. No PvE at all there, and ALWAYS a level playing field).

I personally (as in IRL) know 7 new players to DAOC within the last two months, and that's just me. So far, they're having a ball.

 

[gervaise]

Half the time the ones who do make "IM LEAVING!!11" threads come back and start playing again.

From what i've seen theres only a small percentage of players in the EU who actually use the boards, although it seems like there's a lot quitting theres also a large amount of new players pouring into the game.

a) This is why it would be nice if Goa brought the peak population stats back up. The fact that they haven't - and have taken the clicky away to access them - suggests ...... We could then say - oh look peak numbers are up 10k since ToA (or whatever).

b) This type of thread appeared on VN for a while - before the posts dried up. People defended against them, said that folks don't leave etc etc US servers. These days there is no dispute that peak numbers are down 'several thousand'. About 5k in the last couple of months. A typical peak number is now 28 to 29k. Rarely higher, often lower. Its easy to call up 'old' threads quoting much larger numbers. Big change though is that no one on VN is bothered anymore. Very few are bothered about Frontiers either.

c) DAoC Euro was pretty static pre-ToA with people very slowly drifting away. I noticed it get quieter gradually lastyear playing at the much distorted time I played.

d) Will Italian DAoC survive. Has been lots of financial problems. SI to launch though but numbers now are very low indeed.

 

[Saggy]

All good points, but that's just asuming RvR is your goal as a player. A lot of people (RvR players will jump in and deny this heresy, but it's true) play DAOC primarily as a PvE game.

Yes, a lot of people play Daoc primary as a PvE game. The majority of players, however, play because of RvR Or what would be the reason there is less than 1000 players on Gaheris the co-op server which is, if I've understood right, pure PvE [yes yes, not many players on PvP servers either but co-op server wont change PvE at all (I think) whereas PvP server changes RvR totally (I think) and yes, I would say taking a keep without a change of player defenders is more likely PvE than RvR ]. RvR was something new, something unique when the game was released (or maybe it still is Oo) and there was back then and still better options for PvE-MMORPG than Daoc, imo. Well, I for one haven't ever been impressed of Daoc PvE as PvE (pre-ToA) but I like the "story", looks and setting.

So while RvR fanatics proclaim "THE DEATH OF DAOC!!/!!!" just because they have to do (gasp! shock!) some PvE (oh noes! PvE in a MMORPG! THE SKY IS FALLING!!!) to get the new TOA toys so they can WTFPWN again in RvR, the rest of us will get on with enjoying the rest of the game (and they still won't accept that they'd really be much happier playing Quake Team Deathmatch. No PvE at all there, and ALWAYS a level playing field).

You must admit that the new stuff in ToA more or less dramatically changes some things and are fairly important to get. For me and many others the end game pre-ToA was leveling lots of lvl50s, farm good gear and get decent RR for most essential RAs to keep the RvR variated by being able to choose differend kind of character. Thanks to ToA I would have had to do PvE for about an year to get back in that situation and maybe once I've done that Frontiers would have be released with the new RA-system, which of course, would mean more RvR to get the most essential RAs. If I could change things I would make 2 lvl50s at max instead of 8 :/ Bet you wouldn't be happy either if you would have to get RR11 just to enter the new PvE-zones in future patches Should I say "PvErs should just play Asheron's Call where they dont need to worry about RvR" if that was about to happen?

Anyway, the main reason why the number of "players" increased in SI but not in ToA is that SI bringed the ability to play in windowed-mode and two accounts at the same time without illegal softwares. I know many players who have "left" the game because of ToA in a way or another. The next time you PM your friend#1 dont get too surprised if the reply comes from your friend#2 for example ;o I've left the game, well kinda anyway ;D When that happened the number of active accounts dropped by 3 (being 5 temporarily ;D ).

/rude @ ToA
/rude @ Frontiers (yeah, still just suggestions but anyway)
= Dramatic changes -> New game, not an expansion!

 

[Filip]

i was big toa fan for a long time ... played it lots of lots .... but tbh it seems to be that the long term effect of toa for me is less and less online time...

im ml10, got 6 artifatcs activatet .. migth wanna change 1 of them ...

but atm it is impossible for me to make good rvr groups ... it was hard! before .. but now impossible...

the realm(alb) i play in got loads of ppl with work/studies/other oblications and get steam rolled by the groups who had the time to make the ML's and artifact LVL's

i find my self log in ... wait around ... start running in circkels jumping like a frog ... logg

so im changing my my view on toa .. from my point of view toa was bad

 

[Ezteq]

yes it was tbh imo ffs why fiddle about with sommit so much you kill it >.<

 

[[TB] Benedictine]

Filip you're at the point I was about a month ago. I had 4 accounts - 1 I levelled the hard way (excal - but started on US servers pre-Euro release sicne I was a 'Arthur' History fan ;-) ) Two accounts were my brother's and a friends who left to join SWG. The last I bought.

I sold all 4 recently (to existing DAOC players). Now if that trend continues - and I have no doubt that it is a trend and will continue then, yes DAOC is on the turn. The thing Mythic forgot was their unique selling point - most mentioned in this thread was the playability, combat system etc. All this leads to the difference between this game and others - RvR - no one does it quite like it. To be honest, 2 weeks after selling up with nothing to go to but RL ;-) I am missing it, but I knew I would. Nothing compares ot RvR DAOC style. TOA killed it for me for reasons already mentioned here. For me and for many others. We were the hard-core player base (as is Filip ).

PVE people have so many other games to go for. Check out the new releases and those in Beta. The vast majority are PVE centric.

So what Im saying is, yes, Mythic dropped the ball. The new PVE expansion proves it beyond doubt (Im sure its very nice for PVE-ers).

 

[Wai]

sticking to my guns bout player base roughly staying same atm as i've just met 3 more new players whilst lvl'ing a artifact, but i will agree with many other points.

B4 toa i was 100% rvr based, fortunatly i had a sb and now have a hunter so i could just walk out into the frontier leech buffs (or logg in bb i share ifi have to) and happily solo for 10's of hours at a time. Hell i could go odins and see nothing all day but i'd still be enjoying myself on the off chance a solo chanter for example would run through hmg or smth. But since toa i now find myself with 4 lvl50's which i now have to spend more hours with than i ever did in a weeks worth of rvr just to obtain 1 artifact... baring in mind each of them has at the lowest 3 and highest 6 artifacts in thier template u can see my problem. 15-16 artifacts i need to obtain and i'm not so rich that i can just go and just buy half the scrolls either, each scollr has to be farmed.

Yes i can't wait to get them all sc'd with artifacts fully lvl'd as it will then be a priviledge to essentially do exactly wot i was doing b4, (but with slight increases on certain bonuses) but the fact is i'm a full on rvr player who loved wot i did, and i'm looking at 3-4 months of hard farming if i wanted to get all my chars as effective as they were b4. And with another expansion in the works i can only guess that will involve more farming at some point in the future.

Its all fair and well for pve'ers to say that daoc is a game of pve and rvr so getover itand go farm because they like pve and i respect that, other ppl do not (myself being one of them). As someone else sed previously we (ppl who play mainly for rvr) now HAVE to pve to do wot we like doing, if the tables were turned and u were told u had to be rr7+ to enter any of your favourite pve areas i'm willing to bet u'd be just as disjointed as we are

 

[mts]

Seems a lot of ppl are bailing on DAOC. Was ToA the death of daoc ?

Poma

Yes.

 

[Deadnala]

TBH i have no problem to find rvr groups. well yes not ervery moment of the day but in prime time, no problem. for the toa timeabsorbing part how ppl call it. i have my thought about that. propabely they mean the ML.. Well the first i did the same as everybody, join a raid they dont finish and again and again and you find yourself doing others there ML and you stay where you are..
Then i started to organise it myself. with a good zerg (no afk'ers ld'ers or dombos) im sure i can finish ML3 in 1 raid and it will only take a few hours.

Taking initiative save time.
If you think toa take to much time, then its not toa but you just beeing lazy seeing what hapen dont help you

thats my opinion for what its wurth

 

[Saggy]

TBH i have no problem to find rvr groups. well yes not ervery moment of the day but in prime time, no problem. for the toa timeabsorbing part how ppl call it. i have my thought about that. propabely they mean the ML..

Not just MLs, getting artifacts and leveling them takes a lot of time too. ToA is easily bearable for people who have concentrated on one character but how about those who have ~10 lvl50s in need of MLs and artifacts? For them ToA (and most likely Frontiers too) is a rude slap on the face by Mythic.