Game ballance? plz read!!

[Escape]

The trouble with the main example is, all players have access to all choices.
In DAoC, your choice is limited by your realm. So you can't say the Armsmen who don't login their savages are unskilled because they're not thinking straight. It's because they can't!

Tossing coins isn't the same as RPS. RPS is closer to poker, where skill, luck and bluffing/outsmarting your opponent are needed.

 

[Borvo]

very nice article, unfortunately daoc doesnt quite work like that...

infact it has nothing to do with it at all, thats a completely different kind of balance



in other words: quit whining about being zerged and that zergers are noobs, cuz zergers arent noobs, the ones who cant compensate the imbalance (cant kill the zergers) are the noobs

correct!

 

[Amanita]

You know if you stop thinking of the RPS game in terms of individual players and start thinking of the realms as a whole the analogy becomes a little more relevent.

Group setups have changed because of new abilities, old abilities removed, what became cool, what got nerfed and the way people think about the game has changed a great deal too, veering away from the cool old days when keep taking was new and the thing to do to the fotm single group RP farming setups of today.

I think the point of posting this was to make people think about things. Judging by the replies here very few people did that before posting

 

[Morchaoron]

You know if you stop thinking of the RPS game in terms of individual players and start thinking of the realms as a whole the analogy becomes a little more relevent.

unfortunately, like i said, it doesnt work like that

 

[Azraeth]

guys imo the game is perfectly balanced....!

may i remind u all that we have to deal with real people playing this game
wouldnt be easier if we keep that in mind everytime we hack/flame/whine about someone here or in game just think about it

karmatika was indeed a very challenging post and speaks out the truth tbh!
at least thats my opinion

 

[Morchaoron]

he got the post from a guy who was talking more or less about warcraft 3, tho i played warcraft 3 quiet alot i still disagree with him, while there are people whining in warcraft 3 that one side is too powerful etc, there is nothing boring about playing vs someone while both having the same race... perfect balance and no less fun, and no one can whine about anything

and at THAT very moment it is decided by skill, and its still perfectly balanced...

(other games are decided by skill too but in this case you cant argue about any 'imbalances', because both have exactly the same choice in units, heroes, strategy etc)

 

[flex]

nice article, but this example + most of the comments i read are only about anticipating the chance of your opponent taking that kind of 'item' or in daoc for example, that kind of group setup.

The point where you could compare daoc to this example is in group setup, there u can anticipate what your opponent will bring and with certain grp setups vs other setups is easy win

little example:

You think hibs will come with caster heavy grp - You build your group with tanks + lots of interrupts, chance u will win 70%
You think mids will come with tank heavy grp - You build your group with 2 bodyguards + some hard nukers, chance u will win 70%

In the other way around you would have like 30% chance to win, these are just example figures offcourse to explain my point.

Now daoc is different on many area's, i will point out 2:

1) In the example you make your choice for 1 "round" the next round you can anticipate your opponent again. In daoc you can not do that, If you fight for example in emain you will encouter hibs & mids. You cannot change your grp setup every run to wich group setup u will encounter mostly you think in your next run. You _can_ do it for abit (like if not many mids out lately) but not as much as in the example.

2) Much more important. Where the example only talks about skill as in anticipating your opponent, once you have made your choice, the odds decide. In daoc you have much more then that: you have teamplay, you have experience, you have 'skill' in playing your character. You will notice a difference between different people playing the same character in the same group. That makes this game (and most other games) so much more fun then a simple RPS-like game.

 

[Thugs]

Choices

I dunno i think his thinking is basically flawed because he hasn't taken into account the person wot always sides with the underdog. There are loads of us who rise to a challenge so the silliest choice that makes no sense at all to pick will be picked by lots of us because we think it can work in our 'capable hands'. This reasoning is actually why a badly constructed and unbalanced game can get some semblance of 'balance' owing to 'good players' extracting all that can be extracted from rubbish and the not so good players only able to play their alts to a mediocre level. I mean look no further than Mid players (rubbish alts mainly but played well) and Albion players (uber alts but never played to their full potential):touch: Damn i had to get that in .

Hell i feel good after that. This posting sure is good fun .

PKJ - Thid SB

 

[Morchaoron]

also remember that in most games you can easily see what stuff is unbalanced, because people will stop playing the weakest 'choice', usually it requires you to press one "CHANGE CLASS" or "CHANGE TEAM" button, but in daoc its not that easy, changing from 1 rvr class to another (or realm) takes weeks of levelling, getting and exping artifacts and doing ML raids

 

[Aeris]

but in daoc its not that easy, changing from 1 rvr class to another (or realm) takes weeks of levelling, getting and exping artifacts and doing ML raids

weeks?

 

[Morchaoron]

weeks?

my point is that it is not something what you do in a moment, like pressing the "CHANGE TEAM" button in any other game, you have to spend a shitload of hours doing boring stuff your only do to 'really' start playing the game (at least for most who are interested only in rvr)

-getting 50
-getting all artifacts
-exping them all to 10
-getting ml 10 (or a few lower)
-getting money for your uber 100% SC

for me it is a boring waste doing this a second time and for alot of others who are only interested in rvr it is too, thats why 'team changing' isnt that easy here and your kinda stuck with whatever you play unless you wanna go through the boredom hell again...

PLAYER MEASURE OF SKILL IS MAGNIFIED BY THE IMBALANCE; SKILLED PLAYERS COMPENSATE FOR THE IMBALANCE AND THAT IS WHAT MAKES THEM SKILLED. WITHOUT IMBALANCE THERE IS NO SKILL.

practically the opposite is proven in every game

 

[Eroa]

Im not able to pay attention to one thing long enough to read that post

 

[Derric]

Big crunchy popcorn, raaaaah!

 

[cougar]

popcorn is for hardmode fikusar i just..read on vnboards

 

[Eroa]

Popcorns are overrated

 

[cougar]

such ballance in here

 

[remi]

flames beats paper/rock/scissors.


BUT! Waterballon beats flames, such complicated game

 

[Ethild]

WITHOUT IMBALANCE THERE IS NO SKILL.

I would say that Chess is both balanced and allows for a large degree of skill?

 

[Morchaoron]

I would say that Chess is both balanced and allows for a large degree of skill?

which counts for about any game which has a symmetrical map/playarea with both having exactly the same options...

 

[TiwiS]

on the chess game: white always has the advantage since gets to claim initiative from the first move. This effect has very little impact on the game. but it does give you an advantage.

On the RPS game: only 3 levels of skill are mentionned medium intermediate and expert, but beyond that are an infinite number of skill levels each one countering the previous one. estimating in which one of those categories your oppent classifies is just not doable and in the end you'll end up taking the option with the largest chance to win, ending up in the newbie category :s (the circular reasoning does not in the equasion [skill => higher chance to win]

On Imbalance itself: i do believe balance and [skill => higher chance to win] can be combined, just look at starcraft:BW and Age of Kings:TC for examples of well balanced games.

On Balance and Daoc: People tend to see only one point of the story: Their own, in an RTS game you can simply switch to the side you find overpowered and find out their weaknesses by your self. In Daoc switching to another realm is not quite that obvious (for very clear reasons) and as such people will keep on viewing the game from their own point of view. This view usually consists of: [We Win => We Outskill them] and [We lose => they are overpowered] As the logical reaction is to think what we like to think most (who doesn't like to believe you are good and skilled and the others only win through luck and being overpowered)

This makes me want to think that the only way to really balance the game is to make everyone whine equally as much. Since this reasoning deems it harder for an overpowered realm to whine equally as much.
As controversial as it may seem, i think it is the only way to to macromanage balance in a game of this size and complexity.

 

[Boggy]

Arguably going first in Chess is as much a disadvantage as an advantage. Even if it's an advantage, it's simple to balance (players play twice, each colour once).

I think this thread is a massive over-simplification. Clearly skill exists in all games where we can influence the outcome. Whether skill can overcome imbalance depends both on the degree and type of imbalance as well as situational factors.

 

[Edlina]

On Imbalance itself: i do believe balance and [skill => higher chance to win] can be combined, just look at starcraft:BW and Age of Kings:TC for examples of well balanced games.

Starcraft BW prly the most balanced complex game with the choises of races being so diverse still.

There's a counter for everything, but unlike daoc, in SC|BW they are actually accessible

 

[Morchaoron]

Starcraft BW prly the most balanced complex game with the choises of races being so diverse still.

There's a counter for everything, but unlike daoc, in SC|BW they are actually accessible

that is because blizzard knows their own game and has done extensive testing, mythic on the other hand:

Can you give me a short discription of how cabalist pets work?

 

[Edlina]

that is because blizzard knows their own game and has done extensive testing, mythic on the other hand:

Well don't think WoW sounds too uber, but time will tell, D2 was also too much the same over and over again, D2 was like PvE in daoc, while BG series was like RvR...