Future of DAoC

[Cadire]

How do people see the future of DAoC?

My own opinion is that, if Mythic listen to the hysteria on the ign boards (and to some extent here), all classed will be so powerful they'll be able to kill anything... except all classes will be so powerful they can't be killed. Guess we'll all end up /dance and /kiss in Emain

Seriously, I think too much emphasis is placed on individual chars. I believe that is the wrong road to follow. I don't see the sense in trying to balance classes against other classes in the realms. I think the group factor should be the focus of the developers. I thought DAoC was supposed to be a group focused game anyway?

In an ideal world, the deficencies of the individual would be compensated by the abilities of the group as a whole. Tactics would determine encounters with enemy forces.

In the real world, tactics don't seem to play much of a role. It's every man/woman for themselves in the scramble for RPs. Once battle commences everyone just hammers away at the nearest enemy!

Now if people were forced to play together (because of char abilities) in order to be able to mount an effective campaign, then imo the game would be more enjoyable, and might stay on my harddisk a while longer. As it is we have a few classes that can do most things themselves... not a good thing imo, and as for RAs
It's turning into IPvIP rather than RvR

Anyways... sensible and coherent thoughts welcome

 

[kr0n]

Imbalance is a thing every RPG/MMORPG has troubles with.

And the more content you have, the more imbalance you have.

Some people concider some classes "gimped" when they cant do what others can when actually they were never meant to be such class. Mythic doesnt listen that much to "whineboards". Thats why they have TLs and Pendragon. So they could run tests and see what are overpowered and what are gimped in their eyes.

 

[Uncle Sick(tm)]

Gawds of old... I am actually agreeing with pr0n.
Someone help me, please.. hehe

 

[Brannor McThife]

I don't disagree that this is a team based game. But, it has been built to the extent that should you remove one certain card, then the entire house of cards comes crumbling down. Can any group actually survive without any form of CC? Can a group of casters last long without any tanks?

Dunno, just think that the skills should be spread out more. For example, Midgard has a severe shortage of active healers in Emain. Take a look inside the portal keep at any one time, and you'll see 3/4 shammy buffbots parked there. Take a look out on the battlefield, and you'll see maybe 2 healers. Which is why the average Mid group in Emain dies if not in the Zerg. But then, why play a healer? All you do all day long is mezz and heal...what fun...

-G

 

[old.Plebo]

Unfortunately it is not really possible to use combat tactics in DAoC. Most of the battles are won by sheer weight of numbers, or by taking advantage of unbalances in the game.

I find that the stealthers are too overpowered and can literally stand on top of you without you seeing them. I remember a few months back when Sinister ambushed a full grp of lower level characters. I assume he was 50 and we were all 40-43ish. He shot two of us before we spotted him. We ran to his location, but he stealthed. He then killed us one by one. It turned out that I was the only one left and I was about half a second away from him when he stealthed. He disappeared completely. He then de-strealthed just far away enough to shoot me with 2 arrows and kill me. I don't think he even took a hit. Yes, Sinister is a good played, but I think that this was unbalanced.

I, as a lvl43 merc, wouldn't have a hope in hell of surviving solo against a group of lvl33-36 players. I'd get mezzed and taken out with ranged attacks. Chances are i'd hardly get a hit on them.

Although they are tacking some issues in the next patches, the sort of strategies I think a Merc would use are not possible due to the environment. I'd imagine a Merc to be a cross between an infriltrator (in that I should be able to ambush or have some level of hiding ability), and a fast armsman (so that I can close on the enemy real quick and have some resistance to Mez/Stun). As it stands, I can't do either. I tend to come into range, get mezzed, then shot from a distance. In the majority of 1 vs 1 situations against similar level casters, i'll come out worst as I cannot get close enough to hit 'em (and against a stealther i'd not even see them). The graphical environment just doesn't offer anything else.....we really need all the paths to be lined with bushes you can hide in, or holes in the ground you can ambush from, stuff like that.

As for the future, I think people will be curious to see what the new graphics engine and shrouded isles brings, but I suspect that the RvR issues will never be ironed out due to game engine restrictions.

In a years time, I expect that DAoC will not be played that much as people would have moved onto the newer games like SW:G, Everquest 2, etc.....although they'll all have their own issues too.

 

[tripitaka]

Grouping for RvR

The question is though :

Would everybody bother helping other in grp apart frmo mana cracks and buffs ?.

Most of the time, ( in my experience so far), when ive been in RvR you get a general leader who shouts commands and ppl try and follow them - but 9 times out of 10 once you're in the heat of the battle no-one listens and everybody just goes for it.

(Im not blaming anyone for this, it seems like most/all lose it in the heat of battle and defend where necessary but don't take into account the grouping side of things). Then charge as one big mass of people - hoping to win the individual battle at hand.

With high numbers in groups - normally theres too many ppl to stop, plan, then attack - as we're under attack already.

 

[kr0n]

Tactics in big zergs are near impossible. Only with a good guild its doable. Thus I myself like to run around Emain with 1-2 groups of close friends/guild members. You can actualyl beat people more than you due tactics such as mez, kiting etc. And the element of surprise can be done there and use every single class there with the full of their powers.

Zergs ruin tactics. And without tactics... boredom sits in quite fast.

 

[Brannor McThife]

You can place the blame for the Zerg almost solely at the feet of RAs.

-G

 

[Cadire]

I agree, a small group of 8, no matter how good their tactics, will always come 2nd against larger numbers. The fact is that the game, whether intentionally or not, rewards people massing together.

A couple of days ago somebody posted the idea of Quake-like arenas, for 2 teams to do battle. That's actually a very good idea. It would certainly pique my interest.

As for tactics though. Here's a real example of what they can do:

In Thidranki, about 6 of us were on the Hib side, spoiling for a fight. I'm sure that most of us have been involved in the boring PK camping that goes on, and understand how senseless it is. We decided to try something else (there were about 6-7 hibs at their PK).

3 of the group pulled back from the PK, and up to the ruins. The rest of us ran back, swam across the water, and circled around to the hill above and left of HPK. We hid behind trees, and waited. Sure enough, a hib stealther crept up to the ruins, and reported that there were only 3 enemy there; upon which the Hibs charges en masse to attack.

Once they'd gone past the point where we could cut them off, we ran up behind them, and frightened the life out of them! Was a great move, and worked a treat. No running back to PK for this bunch

Not exactly the height of sophistication, but it worked (this time). Two points though; I've never seen tactics used at any other time, and this would not have worked against a much larger force. The outcome of this move was very satisfying, much more so than the usual 'hit anything that moves' routine.

I want more of that, and I want Mythic to provide us with the ability to do it.

 

[old.Plebo]

Well, there is some scope to use scouts to do their job, which is, believe it or not, scouting.

I've often been disappointed that when the Hibs and Mids are rampaging around the Alb frontier it tends to be an assortment of player classes that go and check out keeps to see if they are being attacked. Erm, shouldn't that be the job of the scouts? Scouts should be giving alliance leaders FULL information in the whereabouts of the enemy, numbers, etc.

From their information you can set-up traps. However, its not that easy for you all to hide behind some trees without being spotted and ultimately, you still cannot attack superior numbers or levels with a trap. It purely allows you to lure people into thinking they'll get easy realm points, when in fact they'll get killed.

Again, if scouts are used properly, then traps would also be near impossible.

 

[Flimgoblin]

Hrm, if you have a group with a healer, then IP don't matter well assuming the assassin isn't killing your healer...

but it's annoying if there's just a few of you and you get mugged by one fellow who's RPed up to the eyeballs..

My main problem with IP is not that it makes high-RP earners more powerful (would have preferred if they'd fixed all the RvR problems before the RA... but heck you need new toys to aim for to give it interest )
but that it's so much better than equivalent costing RAs.... What else can you get for 23 RAPs that's as good?

Maybe the extra criticals/hp/dex etc. will be better overall, but if you can choose your fights then IP is far superior...

But try and find any active RAs that are anywhere near as good as IP...
RA's were supposed to be about choice, customising your character, self-expression and all that... but you're practically forced to take ignore pain unless you want to be a gimp.

 

[old.Noita]

I agree totally with you Layl, tactics can play a major part in winning a seemingly unwinnable fight... but... you must be in the company of good players who you know well and in who's abilities and skills as players you can trust and rely upon. This is one of the reasons I (like you) try to fix or join a guild group or group of friends for RvR and do most of my RvR in Midgard frontier or more recently in Albion frontier.

The Zerg mentality and, as Big G rightly points out, the desperate search for Realm Points has all but killed Emain for any kind of fun at all. Sure you can have the occasional giggle and so on but in general I feel its not worth the trouble unless REALLY REALLY bored.

As to the future of DAoC well, in my opinion...

I think Spellcrafting and Alchemy are two VERY interesting developments as is the creation of speed buffers in frontier keeps. Im looking forward more to Alchemy tho as I think that the ability to create buff and heal potions is a tremendously exciting prospect in the game. I understand that tanks generally have a hard time in RvR and see their role as being primarily mezz magnets. However, I dont feel that it is ALL about imbalances in the game, I think that things like success or failure in RvR is in great part down to the players themselves. With "cure mezz" some RA's and heals in or out of combat from RA's or potions (to come) tanks stand a much greater chance of longevity in RvR situations and I think that can only be a good thing for the game, perhaps people will then view tanks (either pure or hybrid) once again as viable parts of RvR instead of everyone rolling stealthers because they feel its the only way to guarantee some kind of survival.

Shrouded Isles looks very good from what Ive seen, Im not quite sure where the Valkyn has actually come from though but that's another issue. Im quite looking forward to the new areas and classes but my fear is that those new classes will be more "balanced" than most existing ones causing a fresh round of screams for slaps with the "Nerf" bat!

Im sad to agree with the thought that a lot of people will be leaving DAoC for pastures new (SWG/WoW/Shadowbane etc) but I hope enough will stay to give SI a fair go. I will probably give SI 3 months or so before I decide whether to look elsewhere, I'll probably be playing City of Heroes or Ryzom if I decide to leave.

Now... having agreed with both Brannor AND Layl in the same post I need a lie down Im feeling quite odd!

Toodle pip

 

[old.Odysseus]

Mythic doesnt listen that much to "whineboards". Thats why they have TLs and Pendragon.

Explain to me why the scout TL (for one) has had the same 10+ issues on his list since he started?

I think Spellcrafting and Alchemy are two VERY interesting developments as is the creation of speed buffers in frontier keeps.

couldnt be more true. Im just glad there are caps on stats so this doesnt turn into D2 - meaning a level 40 with uber equipment can kill a level 50 with standard equipment with no sweat.
game is level- and spec-based and should remain so.

Tactics.
Works everywhere except in zergs. Too many ppl are not willing to listen to a leader, to little gratitude towards those that lead, to many numbnuts think they can lead - leading to general confusion.

Balancing:
Dont balance, dont touch the gamerules after the game has been launched, it will only lead to grief and dissapointment. (U hear me Mythic?! Now unnerf me ffs!).
This gives ppl the informed choice of which character to pick - and if they selected a gimp, they got noone to blame but themselves.

 

[Flimgoblin]

Originally posted by old.Odysseus


Explain to me why the scout TL (for one) has had the same 10+ issues on his list since he started?

Mythic don't listen to the whineboards...
they have the TLs and Pendragon there for ignoring
(they sometimes use some of their feedback)

They don't listen too closely to the whine boards - far too many 6000 page petitions for something to be nerfed because that such and such owned me...

There's the occasional one that they happen to agree with - but I doubt many of their changes are spurred by VN Developers Round table feedback... were I a Mythic employee I'd stay well away from that place - it's depressing enough as just a player.

 

[old.chesnor]

The RP and RA system in this game is totally incompatible with Mythics original vision for RvR. Players don't really give a rats ass about the realm, keeps (unless they want DF open), relics, or their realmmates. What motivates the majority is RP, to get RA, to get more RP, to get more RA.....Like the exp grind to 50, where sane, mature adults bickered like stupid children about a few 1000 exp here and there. Its greed. All the time you can get better at killing things BY killing things, this game is in trouble. Mythic don't reward skill, tactics, devotion to the realm, honour....they reward those you farm for the longest period of time. Little skill is involved, heres the bottom line, the players with the most RP in the game (EU and US) are just the people who farm the most. No skill required, just lots of spare time. And the irony is, the longer you are willing to farm, the better you get at it

 

[Flimgoblin]

Originally posted by old.Odysseus


couldnt be more true. Im just glad there are caps on stats so this doesnt turn into D2 - meaning a level 40 with uber equipment can kill a level 50 with standard equipment with no sweat.
game is level- and spec-based and should remain so.

Caps are already there - for the dropped stuff.
Spellcrafted equipment will be good - a fully kitted out level 40 might have a tiny tiny chance to kill a level 50 if they're buffed up
and the level 50 ain't wearing anything special.
The procs/etc. are level limited... the potions could be interesting - if you have 10 potions of in-combat heal how invulnerable will you be? (or are they on 10m timers etc.)

Balancing:
Dont balance, dont touch the gamerules after the game has been launched, it will only lead to grief and dissapointment. (U hear me Mythic?! Now unnerf me ffs!).
This gives ppl the informed choice of which character to pick - and if they selected a gimp, they got noone to blame but themselves.

and if you went based on what's in the manual? there's no "GIMP" stickers next to the gimpy classes... to assume a game like this will stay forever static is very naive...

did you enjoy being chain-stunned before they put in the 1m timers?

 

[old.Odysseus]

and if you went based on what's in the manual? there's no "GIMP" stickers next to the gimpy classes... to assume a game like this will stay forever static is very naive...

At least you would not being in the position I am in: Totally dissatisfied with what my character has evolved into (Im not saying if its good or bad, just that I dont like it).

When a person chooses to make a char, he selects it to fill a role. Change the role and u risk having disgruntled players.
Moreover - once u give in to whines (whether justified or not), everyone will start whining for changes to their specific class.

Was I naive to assume a scout would be a sniper class? Perhaps....
Tell me then, am I naive to assume that a theurgist will remain a supportclass?

Where excactly does one draw the line for how much a company should change a game after release? I for one draw the line when the border between bugfixed and balancing is crossed.