First impressions from an older gamer

Bluelion

Fledgling Freddie
Joined
Aug 15, 2008
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23
Now that I've finally managed to get into the game and play for an evening, I thought I'd share my first impressions for anyone who hasn't taken the plunge and dived in with both feet yet.

I have now made it to the dizzy heights of level 5 Dwarvern Ironbreaker on the Burlak RP server. I'm trying to keep in mind that I've only scraped the tip of the iceberg in terms of game content, but as the saying goes, you only get one chance to make a first impression and this is how the game appears to me right now.

First of all, it is definately not DAOC 2. Not that it tries to be, but deep down I really wanted it to be. What makes it different? Well primarily of course the game setting. I confess to not being a fan of the pseudo commical fantasy setting of which both the Warhammer and Warcraft worlds are set in. Give me Dwarfs, give me elfs, hell even put the bad guys in but please leave the guns and gnomish engineering. While we're at it, lets keep the witty banter to a minumum, the explitives muttered on behing hit is funny at first but gets tiring pretty quick.

Secondly, the graphics. We can argue with each other until we are blue in the face as to if good/life-like graphics are as important as good gameplay, however the fact of the matter is that for some people (myself included) they are, and this is where WoW fell equally short for me. I like my graphically environment to be realistic so that I feel fully immersed in the world, and Warhammer's cartoonesque does little for me. The flip side of this of course is the game engine's performance, I am able to play on a fairly moderate system with the settings turned up to the maximum, 30+ players and NPCs on the same screen and no appreciable graphics lag, which is certainly preferable to the stutter vision which LOTRO suffers from in similarly filled scenarios.

Thirdly, combat, the core of most modern MMOs. While writing this, I was reminded by a friend that at level 5 I can hardly expect to be able to put much strategy into combat, but even so it feels very much like an arcade game. It seems to be a case of enter combat, auto attack, spam a few strikes of various types which happen to be on the quickbar, monster falls down, rinse and repeat. Where has the fine combat system developed in DAOC gone! I want to make a block and react, evade a stab and strike back with a victorious sequence of moves. Sure it makes the system very accessible to new players (and dare I say it, WoWers), but where's the feeling of danger gone? I take no notice at all as to what the NPC is doing, just keep half an eye on the health bar with a view to running away if things aren't going in my favour (which seems very easy - is there a bug which prevents mobs from hitting you as you run off?).

Finally the quests. From the off you are lead through a series of progressively more challenging quests, possibly not as obviously as some current MMOs but about the right pace, introducing the various aspects of the game as you go. There's little doubt left in your mind that you go from area A to B to C clearing out the quests moving through progressively higher tier zones, without the feeling that you will ever return to these areas later on. The quests themselves are well narrated and of appropriate challenge, but I can't help but feel they are just there to allow you to level up to get you onto the meet and two veg of the game - RVR. Even the player quests, which to the best of my knowledge is a (great) new intellectual idea added to the great MMO pool of features that the next game "must include", feel like a quick and easy way to earn XP.

All in all I am left thinking that Warhammer is little more than an arcade game dressed in an MMO suit. Where is the epic immersion? Where is the feeling that that big orc standing in front of you with a great big meat cleaver is about to slice you in two? Where is the need to form fearless groups to head forth into the unknown to return with trousers soiled with the colour of fear? Dare I say it, where is the grind? No doubt Warhammer Online will prove to be very popular indeed :clap:

But seriously, there are some great concepts which would have worked so well in the epic environment. PVP with collision detection? WONDERFUL! But why isn't it in PVE? Why can't the forward tanks keep the enemy from reaching the soft back markers without the need of taunt tactics? Perhaps I will look back at this thread in 30 days time and think what a naive inexperienced banana I was for having such ridiculous first impressions. But at the moment, I miss DAOC :(
 

Muylaetrix

Can't get enough of FH
Joined
Jan 11, 2004
Messages
2,021
so,

you want to compare endgame rvr when you are level 5 ?!?

in which game have you been able to gave rvr at level 5 ?

...

i shouldn`t really reply to a post as stupid as this.

but i did !!!

play for 2 months at level 40 and make your opinion.

pffff
 

ECA

I am a FH squatter
Joined
Dec 23, 2003
Messages
9,452
Level 5 = lol.

You dont even have 15-20 abilities yet...
 

Arkian

Fledgling Freddie
Joined
Jan 7, 2004
Messages
372
I really don't know where to start in replying to this so here goes.

Try playing a level 5 in DAoC, and be in awe of the complex styles you have in combat........
 

Fafnir

Resident Freddy
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Dec 22, 2003
Messages
3,024
PQ quest is the best invention ever. If you are lucky you get bonus items from "PQ roll"
 

Tilda

Moderator
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Dec 22, 2003
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The rvr tactics etc come while you're leveling. By 5 you have what, 4 abilities?
And you dont even mention the rvr.
 

Iceforge

Can't get enough of FH
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Dec 24, 2003
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Actually, from what I see in this post, between the lines that is, is that Bluelion has been caught by the improvement without realising it.

Warhammer is, to me at least, the first game in which the end is not really the point now.

I had a DAoC mindset before I got to play; Go in, make group, KILL KILL KILL, get level 40, then go RvR. Thats how it is usually done.

Warhammer is fun right from the start; Sure, the RvR might not be as filled with tactics and big variety of abilities being fired off and sure, a melee class doesn't have to pay as much attention to excatly what his target is doing as in DAoC; A tank 1on1 is surely not as much about using opportunities as in DAoC as you aren't going to be reacting to the parry/block/dodge.

But belive it or not, that is an improvement in favour of the tanks. A caster/healer is NOT going to be hitting you in melee if they know that will trigger an increase in the DPS you are hitting them with; Absolutely not. Makes balancing so much easier, as they don't have to count 2 sets of DPS's for each kind of tank, depending on whatever or not the enemy is hitting them back, thus giving opportunities to use the best styles.

As you said yourself, this is not DAoC 2, and a lot of us wanted it to be, hell, my mindset when entering was totally set on many features having to be like DAoC, as that was what I would expect, but to be honest, I was pleasantly surprised.

Leveling up for the first time in DAoC sure was fun, because it was new and my first MMORPG, but at times it was extremely boring, and leveling up the 2nd time was a pain in the ass, not to talk about the 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th time or how ever many toons you level'ed up, ofc, some of us turned to PL'ing to get toons up in the end *cough* spiritmaster with 10 bubs of XP at lvl 50 *cough*

In Warhammer, I actually enjoy leveling up. Sure, all PQ's and Quests, or not all, but most of them, follow the same basic formula.

PQ's are often:
Stage 1: Kill X number of easy mobs / collect X number of object located within the area
Stage 2: Fight X number of slightly better creeps (possibly with bodyguards on each one) / collect X number of objects located within area, often guarded
Stage 3: Fight Boss called X, with or without 1-4 bodyguards.

And are put shamelessly throughout the gameworld to grant you items and XP, but so is everything in a MMORPG on the PvE side; It is either Items, or XP or both of those, usually XP is involved unless you are max level. How is that so surprising? Name any MMORPG in which the PvE part is not there to make you level up?
And don't say Eve because that is truely an exception to that, but still, PvE only serves to bring you closer to the top of the ladder.
 

Frosty

Fledgling Freddie
Joined
Aug 10, 2004
Messages
246
Guy can i remind you that even if you agree or not agree. the fella said First impressions.

1st impressions are something you get when you start something may it be driving a car or riding a bike or playing a game.

So dont just post with flames , either read and write down what you agree or not with or just move on, no need for the agro of LOL's etc



I for one respect your post and what you think about the game , But it does get better in later lvls but i do feel what your saying about not having reactional styles like old daoc, But saying that you do have tree skills and there is a amount of skill to play well as run in and bash in rvr = quick death.

In all nice account of your first feelings lets hope your outlook changes for you later on
 

Umilard

Loyal Freddie
Joined
Jan 8, 2004
Messages
99
I had pretty much the same impression (when it comes to the meleesystem) when i first tried the game. Quoting a part of my first post from the betaforum.

The big downside of War so far for me (and it's a HUGE issue) is the combatsystem, especially melee feels really bad. As it is now there is noway i will play a pure meleeclass. I don't really get a different feel while i'm wielding a twohander and when i'm using a dagger.. So far the gameplay feels the kinda the same for all meleeclasses, autoattack (which is more of a dot than actual attacks) and always hit a button for some skill every 1.5seconds. Where is the diffence in speed between the weapons? I want to be able to feel the difference more between the orc wielding a 2h-axe and the darkelf with 2 short swords. Heck, with a more daoclike battlesystem a highelf swordmaster with a fast 2h-sword would get a whole different feel than a class that rely more on brute strength with big slow twohanders.

Choosing the current system instead of a meleesystem more like daocs with styles that work on the regular autoattack seems like a really bad decision to me. The reactionary and position-styles combined with backupstyles worked really good in daoc. I also get the feeling it would make the animations work alot smother. To make it simple you could make it so each class have a static swingspeed, it would make each class gameplay feel more unique and i think the animations could be made more suitable. The big 2-handwielder could have longer animations for their attacks and the quick dualwielder could have faster ones.

Sure, a system like daocs is probably harder to balance properly but i prefer having some classes temporarily overpowered to having a subpar combatsystem, balance can always be altered but a bad combatsystem is harder to change once the game go live. With a better combatsystem Wars gameplay would be so much better than wow instead of now where it feels more like the bastard child of the wowsystem.. Personally i believe remaking the combatsystem is what's needed to make War a game that i will play for many years instead of a game i will probably get bored with after ~6months of retail.

Note that this is just my personal feeling and that i've only played at low levels so far so my opinion might change abit but i doubt i will change my opinion on the basic idea of the meleesystem. It's simply not good enough and for me a good combatsystem is the most important thing in a PvPoriented MMORPG.

After playing a meleechar to 30+ i feel more positive towards the system but i still think making melee more daoclike would've been superior. Also, melee works better on the live servers, the betaservers was more laggy and made hitting enemies a pain.
 

Yma

Fledgling Freddie
Joined
Nov 5, 2004
Messages
352
What you say about first impression is right, but remember that deducing too much after barely scratching the game is just as wrong ...

First and foremost: your ironbreaker will soon get block/parry reactive styles and positional effects, don't worry. Think about it: a new player at level 5 is surely more interested about learning the basics than mastering advanced fights styles, obviously those of us that played before will not need this, but we also go thru this content faster.

Second: obviously this game is about RvR, it's what makes it different than the rest - but compared to DAoC, you have RvR since level 1 and RvR mixed with PvE in those fun competitive PQs, and you don't have to sacrifice xping while RvRing - you can do both things together, and this makes levelling a breeze, something fun that was missing in DAoC 1.

I get mixed feelings about this being or not DAoC2. To me, this game has both DAoC and UO feelings but clearly there is a massive evolution in terms of gameplaying, which shows how important were the last generation mmogs advancements. The big pool of MMOGs features you mention gave a lot to the various WoW, LotRO, AoC .. and those games are giving back to the same pool. As DAoC was the best RvR game with second generation MMOG technology, I'd say WAR _can_ be the best RvR game built with third generation ideas, if Mythic doesn't ruin it, that is ...

It remain to be seen how good it will work when the wave of low level players will move to higher areas. Right now it works wonderfully, in few months ... we'll see.
 

Xandax

Loyal Freddie
Joined
Mar 4, 2004
Messages
911
I think the game is quite good. It is no DAoC but much of that is also because DAoC for many of us is shrouded in the nostalgia as well.

My BW is only just level 12 since head start Sunday afternoon, but on the other hand, I've leveled it mainly by doing RvR and Scenarios with a few PQs in the mix. The simple fact that you do *not* have to rush to L40, farm/grind equipment and money and all that - just to be able to duke it out is wonderful for the more casual players like myself.
And if I get tired of the RvR, there's the PvE and Public Quests.
This game allows you to decide when you want to do what (Sure - enemies must be present to do RvR, but well, you get the drift).

As for many of the other things, they are indeed highly subjective.
Graphics is more then adequate for me. I do not care much about the graphical finesses when I'm knee deep in enemy tanks whom only seems interested in cutting my legs off. Graphics doesn't make a game for me, and I was never bothered by the cartoon in WoW and even in the "old model" when I revisited DAoC earlier this year. Heck - I still play 1995 games because the game play value I get out is higher then subtraction from graphics.
I think this game looks very nice.

The fact that the combat system is "simple", I do not feel is a problem. I am not ashamed to say I played WoW as well. While DAoC was "fun" that you could block, then react, parry, react etc - it did not provide much more tactical approach at level 5. In DAoC at level 5 I had what ... 3 attacks as a melee, and with the queue I could simply press my reactionary skill, and then my "main" skill. Uhhh - tactical approach.
Combat in this game is much more about positioning in terrain and in groups, then simply queuing up reaction/main skill.
The collision detection is thee tactical aspect.
Of course if you judge the combat by slaying NPCs/mobs at L5, well - then combat in DAoC was hardly tactical either.

I'm very happy for the casual approach to RvR, and oh lord - I'm thankful for not having to play a mind numbingly stupid grind as "old school" DAoC was.
I have better things to do with my time now then camp some specific spot for 5 hours to get a level.

But each to his own - every game is not for everybody - but this game collects many good ideas and a couple of great ones into one package. IMO.
 

longbow

Fledgling Freddie
Joined
Sep 3, 2008
Messages
241
For me my first impressions are to compare it with WOW not DAOC. even in the lower lvl's there are a lot of little things that either make me chuckle or think - why wasnt that done before?

An example or 2
npc mobs in WOW tended to either just stand there or walk around - in WAR Ive found them sitting on walls or even rumaging through things.

early orc quests - made me laugh at how dumb they are - ie no its not proper writing wheres the pictures in the writing? being fired from a rock slinger

Its not always the big things that matter - but some of the little things
 

Kami

Can't get enough of FH
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Dec 22, 2003
Messages
2,254
Love WAR, improves on DAOC in so many ways. I'm not overly fond of the graphical style but I'd rather have smooth gameplay over graphics any day of the week - I think they got that right.

In RVR, unlike in DAOC I can actually play without having a slideshow with more than 40 people on my screen for once and I'm on a cheap laptop!

PVE - excellent, PVP - excellent, I haven't taken part in keep takes but I'm sure they'll have improved or at least kept them similar to DAOC.

Crafting - quite enjoying it at the moment, doesn't feel like the grindfest that DAOC crating was.
 

Stazbumpa

Fledgling Freddie
Joined
Dec 25, 2003
Messages
469
Mass brawl last night on the beach in the Nordland RvR zone, about 30 ish per side. I've not played an MMO where anything like this number can PvP on the main map without the server exploding.

This game has started off very well, few quibbles aside, and I can only see it getting better. My Swordmaster is on the verge of stepping into tier 2 :D
 

Scorba

Fledgling Freddie
Joined
Apr 4, 2004
Messages
78
Don't understand what being 'older' has to do with anything. As one 'oldy' to another. That said, it's always interesting to hear considered views ( if very quickly at level 5).

Last night we did some keep taking with the guild in Ostland. As I watched the Alb (oopps sorry Order) Fire Mage zerge line the battlements and our ram go up, I felt like I was back in DAOC. The core of this game is DAOC with RvR at it's heart. What they have done is learnt from WoW and made sure stuff is accessible and fun with gfx that the average computer can handle in mass rvr.

As for choices in combat, there are many. First off, you can choose a tactic set depending upon what you expect to be facing (great new touch) and also morale abilities. when in combat, you do not have reactionary styles (that I have seen) but you do have reactionary choices. X does this to me, or y does that to my groupmate, what do I do? You usually have different style/action choices to make in those circumstances. Far more interesting than watching the combat log or enemy style to trigger a response. Far less an arcade game than Daoc!

If you are looking for a pretty, world immersive game, try Conan. It looks great and has reactionary styles. Ultimately boring for me but sounds perfect for you. Or try Lord of the Rings. Best game for looks and realisation of a fantasy world imo. No Rvr (weird sucky pvp tho) but if want to pretend to be an elf, thats the game! This has taken the humour and mythos of Warhammer rpg and wargame and presented it online. Yes it could be more immersive though I think you may get some taste issues with Chaos slaughtering villagers presented in full IMAX. At least the 'cartoon' feel allows them to present a pretty dark world. Anyway, the Goblins are perfect!
 

Gromnir

Fledgling Freddie
Joined
Dec 22, 2003
Messages
118
When I read this thread I read "I thought it was DAoC because it was Mythic that was making it, so I dident take the time to find out what it was and blames myself and everyone else for it"

Sorry but judging an MMO from within the first 2hours of playing, is like tripping on your bike at the age of 3 and saying "I'll NEVER ride a bike again"
 

Hufner

Fledgling Freddie
Joined
Jan 29, 2004
Messages
67
To me the OP sounds like he's forgotten the first levels in DAOC :)
Though DAOC might have been his first mmorpg, and as such will allways be special :)

And I agree with Yma's points of the game.
 

Umilard

Loyal Freddie
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Jan 8, 2004
Messages
99
I'd like to add some things from my previous post. It's not the core of the game itself that i think could've been done better. I really like the PQs, lore, the humour, the classes and general feel of the game. The Crowdcontrol is really fun, collision detection is well done and the knockbacks is a really innovative way of CC. I also like that this game has alot more terrain than daoc/wow which gives me more strategic options in many fights.

However, i do think the overall feel of the meleesystem is abit off, weaponspeed doesn't really seem to matter in War, you still just mash a button every 1.5 seconds regardless if you are using a 2h-weapon or dualwielding daggers. I think a system with growthratestyles that work on the attack is a more fun and better system and would make the meleeclasses gameplay feel more unique when compared to eachother..

As for choices in combat, there are many. First off, you can choose a tactic set depending upon what you expect to be facing (great new touch) and also morale abilities. when in combat, you do not have reactionary styles (that I have seen) but you do have reactionary choices. X does this to me, or y does that to my groupmate, what do I do? You usually have different style/action choices to make in those circumstances. Far more interesting than watching the combat log or enemy style to trigger a response. Far less an arcade game than Daoc!

Daoc had /stick and backup styles which gave you great control, personally i think war has a more arcade/fpsfeel than daoc becouse people run and jump around alot more in melee. When i played Warbeta it really was a pain to play a meleeclass in rvr becouse of the jumping/running around and the fact that the betaservers was pretty bad, i guess it would be more fun on the live servers..
 

Hufner

Fledgling Freddie
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Jan 29, 2004
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67
Daoc had /stick and backup styles which gave you great control, personally i think war has a more arcade/fpsfeel than daoc becouse people run and jump around alot more in melee. When i played Warbeta it really was a pain to play a meleeclass in rvr becouse of the jumping/running around and the fact that the betaservers was pretty bad, i guess it would be more fun on the live servers..

Erm... Were we playing the same DAOC? ~_^

People were jumping around like silly unless in a relic raid where you were lagging too bad to be able to :p

The /stick felt like an easy mode to me - used in combination with the lack of collison detection meant you could avoid thinking too much when fighting.
 

old.Osy

No longer scrounging, still a bastard.
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Dec 22, 2003
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2,697
Erm... Were we playing the same DAOC? ~_^

People were jumping around like silly unless in a relic raid where you were lagging too bad to be able to :p

The /stick felt like an easy mode to me - used in combination with the lack of collison detection meant you could avoid thinking too much when fighting.

in 1v1 melee, you use /face, not stick :twak:

very easy to exploit the other player by moving through him, true -- this is where warhammer is better.

But still, the combat system has an "easy" feel to it, there's nothing challenging your wits, or focus. Mash 2 buttons, watch health bar, press potion.

I was involved in rvr and a keep take with a lvl 13 engineer in OB. Can't really say it was fun :(
 

Scorba

Fledgling Freddie
Joined
Apr 4, 2004
Messages
78
It all depends what pushes your button. The RvR in War at level 1-17 has been constant and usually fun. Skillful class and group play seems to beat poor and random play. Yes there is a slightly different skill set than Daoc and indeed WoW but there is real skill in play. Compared to a Daoc character at say level 22 in Thid, my 17 War character has many more choices. How a 40 will compare with a Daoc launch 50 or an Toa'd and champion levelled 50 remains to be seen.
 

jizzah

Fledgling Freddie
Joined
Aug 17, 2008
Messages
27
I'm gonna play my 'old fart' card too.

This game's improved a thousendfold from other MMO's, both past and present. So what if it looks a little 'cartoonish'. With hardware improving as time rolls along it could be made to look more realistic. But, from my own experiences in LOTRO, spending too much of the games resources or cosmetics can make the feel of the combat-especially in raids-sluggish to say the least. Gone are the 'stuck in zoning' port blocks. Gone is the slideshow effect. I'd rather sacrifice a few blades of grass blowing in the wind for increased gameplay.

At the present though, your view on the combat system's pretty accurate for the style of fighting we have. It is a bit of a spamfest on actions, BUT people will soon learn how exactly to get the most from their action points. Remember, the games brand spanking off the shelf for the majority. How many druids were running around spamming moonfire when WOW 1st hit the market? Nah, lets pospone the comments on both combat and visual effects till the game's out of pampers.

Jizzy (grumpy scottish git)
 

Umilard

Loyal Freddie
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Jan 8, 2004
Messages
99
People were jumping around like silly unless in a relic raid where you were lagging too bad to be able to :p

But jumping around didn't really help that much unless you abused lagstrafing or ran through people to get out-of-view. In war this wouldn't be as much of an issue becouse of collisiondetection.

Erm... Were we playing the same DAOC? ~_^

The /stick felt like an easy mode to me - used in combination with the lack of collison detection meant you could avoid thinking too much when fighting.

Yeah, we might've been playing different games tbh :p I think daoc was way more unforgiving than both war and wow. Sure, if you were a meleedps running in a assisttrain it wasn't very hard but otherwise i had to think more while playing daoc. For me skill in a game like this isn't running around like a madman, i like /stick and /face.

Oh, and i think it's a good thing that war is more forgiving.. Guess it wasn't very fun for the more casual players to run in a PuG in daoc and get whiped by a pbaoegroup in 2 secs, the nasty interrupt/CC system pretty much scared away many players from RvR (Atleast after Toa).
 

Scorba

Fledgling Freddie
Joined
Apr 4, 2004
Messages
78
The skill is in where you run to!

There is a pretty simple way to track your target which is with the 'highlight' circle in which you stand. There is an arrow that points to them. Ok you have to move to keep up with them and to face them, but facing is much easier than wow as they cant run through you.

I play a Chosen. I have different styles that can be used in different combos depending on class and circumstance. taunt gives me a nice damage buff on target but uses action points that may be better used in a snare style later. Do I use a dot style or will the combat be shorter. Do I use my grapple morale ability now or risk the player gets away before i can use it. So on and so on. Personally i consider it more engaging than slam, run through to behind, change weapons and ragnorak my victim.
 

code414

Fledgling Freddie
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Sep 18, 2008
Messages
14
I used to love /face on my Hunter, I only wish WAR archers were like those of pre-SI DAoC :(
 

Bluelion

Fledgling Freddie
Joined
Aug 15, 2008
Messages
23
Thank you for the constructive responses. In re-reading the opening post, it comes across more negative than I intended, for which I apologise. I do like the game, I'm itching to get out of work and back to the grind (*cough* I mean questing) so it can't have made that bad an impression on me.

I didn't comment on RVR because I didn't experience it. I activated the RVR wait system for an hour (approximate 23:00->00:00 BST), but failed to get into it, presumably most people had given up by then or I failed to operate it correctly.

And yes - DAOC was my first MMO, and I probably am nostalgic over it. Those first few days in the forest south of Salisbury Plains trying to survive will be forever etched on my mind. Saving up for that first horse trip to Camelot still bring back feelings of euphoria which have yet to be repeated. Funny how all those mind numbing hours spent in Lyonesse now seem strangely enjoyable :)
 

Raven

Fuck the Tories!
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Its a first impression you spastics, the clue is in the name.
 

sloand

Fledgling Freddie
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Jul 18, 2004
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lol

I wish i made a first impressions post like this when i started playing daoc. It would have been brief to say the least.
 

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