Fao Jesta !!!!!!!

[old.[748]G-Man]

Jesta m8 missed u last night as had a match and u were in shower etc etc etc...lol anyway 2fort demo is no good, we all got kicked by punkbuster mid map, map wasnt paused, ref got kicked also so no good looking at that, bases is almost complete apar from about last 3-5 mins when my isp went 'fuck off' and dropped me.
I'll DCC it tonight along with cvar error and u can let us know the story then, btw we are more concerned by the pb cvar moreso then the abuse, I understand you have to look after your refs etc, and I hope the ref Ramos and Daemon give a full account of what happened and you dont have to rely on me or demos. Demos show the 'corrupt ref' incident but not a lot of abuse which mainly took place prematch on 2nd map, and we dont generally record 5 mins of nothing
Our main concerns are this:
The PunkBusted User, clearly in violation of the game and cheating as per punkbuster, screenies available, also mails from the punkbuster support team confirming my findings on the cvar as being a 'known cheat'
The abuse both to us the ref (during our game) and to the admins (saturday night when they turned up without pb)
Unfortunately abuse may not appear as much in demo of bases because it was in prematch etc, but ref incident caught by demo.
I'll see if demos of well exists.
G-Man --
if you see this post a mail addy i can send stuff to pls

 

[old.[748]Silent]

Morning G - seen your share price lately, lmfao!!
.
I really dont think the demos should be an issue for the abuse side of things - the ref is an *authorised representative* of the league so surely his match report is all that they should reasonable require? I mean he had nothing invested in the outcome of the match and does not stand to gain whatever happens - if the league dont trust their refs then why have then in those positions in the first place
.
All I know is the poor sod got it in the ear big time for doing his fecking job - sure as shit I wouldnt do it. All you get is grief and bugger all thanks for your time/effort
.
Lets hope this doesnt become another triumph of red tape over common sense!

 

[old.[748]G-Man]

ooo-eerr does jesta read these forums ?

 

[echo]

he does yeah, all the admins do i think

 

[1Jesta]

Point 1) I've had a really shitty day at work and arguieng with the missus etc
Point 2) If i find out the so called clan in question have done the things there said to have done , me being in the mood i am , they will be removed and wont be asked to compete again in this league

Nuff said, Refs are to be treated with the respect they deserve for giving there free time to help the league and clans involved, any clan dont at least adhere to the simple fact of "Respect" the referee will be shat apon from a great height.
Ref abuse isnt and wont be tolerated !!

 

[old.[748]G-Man]

Jesta, been missing from irc lately.
Any news on this, watched demos myself using timedemo demo.dem as playdemo wouldn't work :/ as 2fort was interupted by mass droppage all demos stopped and caught not a lot, bases seem to run fully though and 2fort caught pb schtuff!!
Not wanting to dwell on this to long but whats your decision

G-Man

 

[old.[748]Silent]

yup, whilst we dont want to push you (know you are busy and all that) but as your decision may well have an impact on our league placement next season (which is soon) we'd like to get this one out of the way asap
.

lol @ G's piccy posting skills

 

[Moön]

Sorry to but in but this could be an issue of discusion about abuse during a match I've heard so much of it and some of the younger players in some clans do seem to find it hard to control thier tempers .

I have a question for this subject that might help, is there a way that global say during a match can be limited to only one player from each team if some abuse starts ?
This way if something is needed to be said it can be spoken from the most level headed person from each side .

Yeh some clans do do some pretty annoying stuff whilst playing a match but it all could and should imo be left to the match report afterwards, I'm a sinner myself I've made the odd comment regarding people backtracking which was soon pointed out to me to be unacceptable from the ref so I hushed the rest of the map and left it for the match report but some ref's do seem to let it go whilst the match is in progress or prematch .

I like the actions taken in the past I have seen when clans are abusive but it dosnt seem to be a deterant to others as its obviously still happening as shown here .

You could remove the clan when this happens but for 1 individual's behaviour is it neccasary to punish the whole team when the individuals could be banned which would then stop them joining another clan and continuing the same thing .

I'm not trying to force in any rules or take any sides I just like to help a growing comunity improve, and it'l be interesting to see how the this situation G-man has reported gets dealt with

 

[old.[748]G-Man]

aye moon, the main issue of this is not the abuse toward the clan as you say it happens in most matches now and then, but it was a bit extreme in this match, also blatant disregard for rules and regulations of a league is downright stupidity, if you dont read the rules then dont complain when someone wants to use PB..etc..!

Our main point here was the PB incident, and one of them blatantly using the 3rd person view, they got kicked by PB, theres no point denying it, as its in logs etc etc..but to be kicked 3 times for the same cheat *sigh*....We are now glad PB was used as most likely we would have had a much tougher time against a clan with ppl cheating!.

Also the other incident is the abuse to the ref, nothing to do with us as this would be between admins and clan, but the ref is there for a reason, rules are there for a reason, you break em you pay the penalty, you cheat you get kickec/banned for at least a season...you as part of a clan are responsible for the rest of the clan and vice versa, you were the tag as a CLAN member not an individual, if you dont vet your members then imo thats your tough luck!

Give them rules to follow within clan, most clans do.

[748]G-Man

 

[Moön]

Yes but how are some people to know someone in thier clan is using a cheat, I know I wouldn't .

I can see your point with regards to people being responsible to thier clans but we're in a comunity containing alot of people at a young age and I cant really see them takeing responsibilities as serious as you or I, to some other people trying to build up a clan and make a go of it what are your options

:Try to control the individual in your clan (hardly possible)

:Kick them (where I'm sure they'l soon find another clan and repeat)

If the individual were banned problem solved

Basically its a shame that every 1 including the respectfull members of the clan would be punished for what could be 1 persons crimes .

Thankfully I'm in a clan with mature and sensible members but I'm sure we'l come across a clan like you've desgribed one day .

And 1 last thing providing there's proof of a player cheating ( using a real cheat not just to many restarts n stuff) I beleive he should be banned from all leagues and his won id posted up for people to see for private server baning aswell

 

[old.[748]G-Man]

hmm one of my clan members just told me your decision on this???

Not happy at all with that Jesta soz m8, If nothing was seen in the demos then fair enough as I explained we were all booted by pb at one stage! so demos ended..but you have a ref and he was witness to the whole lot, in fact at the end of well the golden cap map he went out of his way to apologise to us for having to put up with such behavior and derogatory (sp) snipes from another clan midmatch, postmatch and prematch!

Surely you have access to the logs from these servers? If not then why use them?? You cant always rely on somebody recording a demo, recording wonids etc etc..!

So what I am gathering from what you told my clanmember is this...we will not be doing anything to this clan and they will be free to enter the league next season ?

If this is the case I find it hard to believe, why is the punkbuster being pushed aside as a warning only? If we had played without PB then this person would've cheated and not have been caught!! we use PB he's caught and gets a slap on the wrist, dont do it again in another match that uses PB in bwtfcl, but if PB not running then we cant catch you!!

PB is there to stop cheats!! simple fact!! if they are caught they should be banned, for some period of time. If its in a playoff match then the clan should be penalised the map made to default it at least and not just warnded to turn it off and dont do it again!

Soz to blast off but I was told you spoke to another member and he told me what yousaid and I wasnt too happy, as we had to go through the *SIN* clan last season and now this!

If that is your decision then fair enough, but I would like an explanation of why you have made this decision, especially the punkbuster one! Nobody likes cheats yet they still seem to get away with it when they get caught , also why the ref gets some abuse we get a lot of abuse (the ref's report should be enough evidence on this) and again no action taken.

Your the head admin, you call the shots, tell me your reasons, I have a right to disagree with them, I should have a right to argue them to a reasonable resolution, but at the end of the day, your the boss in this matter.

[748]G-Man
#748 on quakenet

 

[old.[748]G-Man]

fair enough moon, if the individual is banned/warned etc.. then its a start and a warning to the clan that such behavior is not tolerated..!

I suppose you could look at the cheat issue in a different light if the clan member is new to the clan, or if the clan member is a seasoned player with the clan.

If a clan is to enter the league they are told to read the rules and observe them, if one individual player in the clan choses to ignore them its a tough one to call..!

We got similar type of abuse maybe not as bad, by *SiN* last season and they got booted, I believe evidence was gathered through their terrible match reports.

We all snipe at each other in praccy but in a match, the CL should take responsibility and not letting members play who are an unknown as far as clan play go until they are vetted so to speak!

I guess if someone is punished a lesson is learned if they are not punished then they will continue on their merry wicked way

Anyway if a decision has been made then we stand by it , may not agree with it but hey thats life, thats..life....thats what all the people say.......lalala.....

[748]G-Man

 

[old.sigma957]

PB is run to catch cheats. PB catches a player using a cheat. To me that is case closed. The player should be banned permanentely and the clan immedeately forfits the match and has some sort of ban/punishment imposed.

 

[old.[748]Silent]

Nice to see the admins apathy towards enforcing their own rules
.
Strange though how quickly these same admins jumped on the UKTFCL bandwagon and kicked 4D and GT for something that they didnt even do in this league - easier to follow than lead I take it
.
I'm deeply disappointed over the whole affair..... not so much for the issue not going our way, more for the half arsed way it was dealt with - not exactly a good example to deter others from abusing referees and other clans, not to mention the punkbuster incident is it?
.
I mean, whats the point of having a position of authority if people can't depend on you to do the right thing, or at least be seen to
.
Maybe if we had friends in high places in the league it would have been different and the matter would have received more than the cursory glance and summary dismissal that it did?

 

[1Jesta]

Woahhhh, hold yer horses.....
You've heard a "rumour" of what decision has been made and nothing more.

The clan member involved has since been kicked from [BDS], however he is still Banned from Bwtfcl , His Wonid has been added to the ban list, he cheated, he was caught, nuff said.

The clan Involved has been warned and has apologised.

Noone can say that anyone in a clan knows 1 clan member is cheating, so that imo is an individuals forfeit , not the whole clan.

Looking at the demo , global chat was used a lot and they were kicked for it, as for the abuse to the ref in 1 incident the player had a right to be a bit pissed off imo, and it went from there.

As for PB , we had a few probs with it this season but now have a dedicated PB server, Thanks to Kain, so next season it'll be mandatory again i presume.

Apologies for the delay in reply but been busy and didnt check forums for a few days

 

[old.[748]Silent]

LMFAO - next time we have an important match remind me to arrange for an expendable member to use wall hacks
.
That way if anyone catches them we can claim ignorance, he can get kicked out and we can win the match without tarnish - very convenient
.
nice work admins -- I for one am proud of your inability to grow balls and make a stand on the side of fair play

 

[Moön]

Would you feel the same way if you had a freind or 2 in BDS Silent ?

And how would you feel if 1 of your member's was found to be cheating and you whole clan was banned for it ?

I've heard of clans with up to 40 people would you ban all 40 for 1 member found cheating ?

 

[old.[748]Silent]

Maybe we are in the minority but yes, if one of our guys was found to be cheating (ESPECIALLY in a fecking promotion match!) I would expect 748 to be banned fromthe league -- at the very least I would expect a lifetime ban for the cheat and expulsion for the clan for the rest of the season
.
and if it was a final/playoff I would expect a forfiet for the match in question -- convenient for my our needs in this instance, but thats how I see it)
.
In fact Im sure that ALL of us would accept the consequences of the actions of any members of our squad. At 748 we pride ourselves on our fair play and principles -- at the end of the day that is what separates the lamers from the rest of us - the way we act towards others

Maybe we are expecting too much in asking others to have the same viewpoint
.
Im sorry, but I still think the matter has been poorly dealt with and that the administration team (person/whatever) who made the decision has been short sighted in allowing a clan to be promoted to the 1st division by way of a highly questionable (and fiercley contested) result where clear evidence was supplied
.
It is not a good advertisment for the league and has only served to strengthen my own feelings that the admin function here needs to grow a spine
.
Your actions send out clear signals to the community of what is and is not acceptable behaviour -- in this instance the message is little more that a bit of finger waving and even then its being done with little conviction - I wonder why that is?
.
Still, its your league so you can run things however you feel is appropriate ............... what does it matter what I think, lol - Im nobody!

 

[old.[748]G-Man]

aye moon but the if that one person cheats in a match he is not doing so for personal gain and will not gain anything personally from it, the entire clan gains from cheats not caught in a match so the entire clan should be punished.

The person was caught he was turfed from BDS apparently banned from league etc etc.. but what if he wasnt caught the entire clan would have gained from a defensive 3rd person cheater which are clearly more difficult to get past and playing in a key position bot lift 2fort where concs are invaluable to getting by :/

Noone can say that anyone in a clan knows 1 clan member is cheating, so that imo is an individuals forfeit , not the whole clan.

simple thing is if he's not caught the entire clan benifits if he is caught the entire clan is not punished. needs some adjustment that i think.

We've yet to make a decision about rejoining this season so we'll see! Examples have to be made of cheats, especially with pb just being introduced into leagues, a no tolerance policy should exist! If this means punishing the clan so be it after all what I said previously 'THE ENTIRE CLAN benefits for a cheat, so THE ENTIRE CLAN should be punished' -regardless of whether they know or not, this can be argued further as the match was agreed initially to be played with PB 5 hours before match on a diff day, but they turned up without PB claiming they had no knowledge of it and claiming that they did not have to use it, one wonders if we had turned it on while they were on server, how many others would've been caught that night!


G-Man


Jesta can we have a formal post about the decision or where do we get this info?
in particular:
-PB cheat issue, player banned
-Abuse to ref, he was right to abuse the ref?
-Abuse to bwtfcl admins, Sat night of original match time
-Abuse to 748, apology only from the ref - can we see the ref report on this?

Ta

as silent says if one of us uses a cheat without us knowing it we would expect complete bannage and accept it.

 

[old.monk]

Wah?!? How can this even be considered ambiguous? The rules are don't cheat. Someone cheats, but that's ok. Abusing the ref? Well, that's a red card offence right? Ah well, it's ok in this instance. Match was won on golden cap, so it must've been tight. One clan had an unfair advantage over the other? Erm stuff that under the carpet...

I was going to suggest a rematch with tighter scrutiny of the rules, but then it occured to me why? As soon as a player is caught cheating surely that should be it? The player should then be banned from the server immediately, and the match allowed to continue. That did not happen, so I believe [748] have every right to complain.

 

[old.sigma957]

Hmmm, a player is caught cheating by PB, he is kicked/banned, as it should be.

The clan he plays for apologises, they get warned and that is all the action that is taken?
Slapped wrists and don't do it again?
Really sends out a strong message to deter other clans.

 

[old.[748]Silent]

just a hint of sarcasm there or have you turned into a bleeding heart liberal, lol?

 

[old.sigma957]

Just a hint of sarcasm!
You noticed, damn.

 

[old.[748]markonasty]

Well this is just crap!! i would like fro the admisn to explain to me how this works. A member of a clan is found cheating he gets kicked out of BWTFCL, good right choice but the clan he plays for gets sweet F.A done to them i would like to ask how is this fair on us we lost this match very close on golden cap so this means they had a huge advantage so why should we be the looses on this? also this clan just broke every rule in the book and why where GT banned from this league when the did fook all in BWTFCL but when a clan actually does the same in BWTFCL they get a slap on the rist. At the moment i think this is one of the worst decisions the bwtfcl admins have made i use to enjoy this league but if you let cheats take part what is the point in being in this League??

 

[Twinner]

Originally posted by [748]markonasty
but if you let cheats take part what is the point in being in this League??

Lets not make sweeping statements or anything?
The cheater in question has been banned and kicked which clearly shows that the admins are not letting cheats take part in the league.

Also I really cannot understand why the hell you are bothering to post about this on this forum which is hardly used or looked @

If you have a problem go into IRC and talk to the admins about it instead of bitching about it here.

 

[old.[748]markonasty]

well we have tried it in irc but we get no where so we brought it here and yes he got banned but why not the clan for cheating?? i bet you they knew about it thats why we where ment to play them a week earlier. But when we mentioned PB they ran a mile and said it makes there comps crash so i think that most of them have cheated there way through BW and that when we used PB they took there cheats off. Why else would they rufuse to play with PB?? plz get back to me on this.

 

[old.[748]G-Man]

Twinner m8, no offense but this has nothing to do with you unless your an admin dood, and if you are then I'ld expect a more constructive reply!

We've spoken to jesta in irc btw, after the original post was made !

I am looking for a formal posting/decision to be mate atm and more importantly to know if bwtfcl stands by the fact that a cheater in anyclan perhaps unbeknowst to others in the clan is still aiding the clan through leagues and if caught what their official stance on it is.

So again don't add to the post if you know nothing about it or again aren't an admin.

Thanks,

G-Man

 

[Moön]

Its all acceptable but because you didnt win the match it seem's this subject holds alot of you feelings about that rather than whats best for the league .

Originally posted by sigma957
The clan he plays for apologises, they get warned and that is all the action that is taken?
Slapped wrists and don't do it again?
Really sends out a strong message to deter other clans.

Sending out any kind of message in a comunity like this I don't think is going to get any ones attension and if it does I don't think all of them are going to care to much, half the people in some of these clans are imature enough to try and cheat regardless of the consequences, banning the individual has stoped him and he cant just go to another clan and reapet also getting them banned to .

I do agree with the comment that a clan found to have a cheating player should automatically loose the match, but we've always got the possibilty of sabotage there in an important match, hey any thing can happen I seen some right idiots, ones that crash servers n sh!t to avoid a match .

You have a point in saying the clan could have been punished more for the principal of it, they had a cheating player for god knows how long and they got cuaght in the last match of the season? which they actually won and got promoted does seem wrong to have them claim such benafits following the circumstances, all matches the cheater played in should be void imo and the clan should be made to play that div again .

Banning the whole clan tho I can't see as benaficial, the clan could die from such a blow and indvidual players reputations could be damaged for a long time even tho they havnt done anything wrong .

There's still the issue of the abuse but I dont know what happened there so maybe you do have strong argument to have them banned if it was that bad .

Originally posted by TWINNER
Also I really cannot understand why the hell you are bothering to post about this on this forum which is hardly used or looked @

If no one posts anything here its never going to get looked at, so at least a heated subject or 2 might get some activity :/

Originally posted by [748]G-Man
So again don't add to the post if you know nothing about it or again aren't an admin.

Sorry already posted and no offence intended but whats the point in a forum you cant add an opinion to if you didnt want that then it shouldnt have been posted really m8

 

[Twinner]

Originally posted by [748]G-Man
Twinner m8, no offense but this has nothing to do with you unless your an admin dood, and if you are then I'ld expect a more constructive reply!

o thats funny
u've brought a private matter onto a public forum and expect peeps not to post about it.

And if im totally honest which i normally am u should of gotten a default 4 it but its up2 the admins

 

[old.monk]

very true twinner - the admins (ramos the ref and jesta) were both VERY helpful initially, as they were concerned and promised to investigate. all the evidence was handed over and they went off to look at it. 3 days later we post a message here asking for a result. this is the discussion that followed.

it is difficult to catch everyone on irc, and very little can be done then as it is not a reliable form of meeting.