Falluja - Gulf War 2A

[rynnor]

Its going to be a bloodbath - as usual we will get two vastly different sets of casualty figures one low one from the US and one much higher from the locals - where the truth lies is anyones guess.

I heard an International journalist interviewed a few weeks ago who questioned the way Iraq is reported in the west - he characterised the situation as a civil war rather than the 'terrorist uprisings' that the US dominated coalition puts forth. I cant help but think there may be more than a grain of truth in that.

Lets look at what we do know - theres a temporary government in place but its a government in name only as it was imposed by the 'liberating' allies. Yet the western media have been sucked into this charade and treat it as if it really was a government rather than a US mouthpiece.

I personally believe that this rather un-subtle attempt to force the country into a 'western democracy' could well backfire on us all. At the end of the day only the Iraqi people can decide what direction their country moves in and no amount of US firepower can change that.

Spare a thought for the poor civilians trapped in Falluja - already the US and its 'interim government' lackeys are saying that all the civilians are gone from Falluja with the unstated logic that everyone whos left is an enemy - convenient thinking eh...

 

[Tom]

The Iraqi people can't really decide what direction to take their country, because they have no power to do so. In this country, we have several hundred years of civilised rule, no civil wars, and the rule of law is well established. In Iraq, its not the same. Until these terrorists (for those are the ringleaders, most of them aren't even Iraqis) are apprehended or killed, not much will improve.

If those soldiers leave, even though the large majority of Iraqis want a democratic system of government, they'll lose all hope of one, because the religious nutters driving car bombs and firing mortars will depose the government, and impose their own style of rule - and we all know what that would be.

 

[rynnor]

If those soldiers leave, even though the large majority of Iraqis want a democratic system of government, they'll lose all hope of one, because the religious nutters driving car bombs and firing mortars will depose the government, and impose their own style of rule - and we all know what that would be.

True but theres peace keeping and then theres trying to impose your own wishes - I agree that the troops must remain but I think the American operations in Iraq have been largely counter-productive - the UK approach is a lot better and a credit to our Armed forces - its a shame they get screwed by the politicians...

 

[Tom]

Its biased reporting, because the Americans have so far had to deal with all the worst aspects of Iraq. The British have had it relatively (I use the word lightly) easy.

 

[rynnor]

I think the Americans have mastered the ability to make enemies wherever they go...

 

[Tom]

I think the press print things to make money.

 

[Turamber]

When in Istanbul on holiday last week I watched the news on Turkish TV - although I couldn't understand a word of the reporting I did understand the video footage: they showed scores of dead bodies of people killed in the fighting. No greyed out faces but close ups of the faces of the dead. Horrific stuff, yes - but also deeply moving.

It's probably also incorrect to say that all of the Iraqi's fighting against the west are all religiously motivated, there is a small matter of their country being invaded after all.

 

[Munkey]

How can the Iraqi government run and be respected if it is still over-ruled by the americans? The iraqis cannot claim to be running their own country if, at the end of the day, its a foreign power who gives the ultimate go-ahead.

Proof? Hussain Shahristani. Then they have the audacity to push forward How Allawi and claim it was the Iraqi governing council's idea.

 

[Jonaldo]

I think the press print things to make money.

I think you film things to make money.

 

[dysfunction]

I think you film things to make money.

Nice one!

But I'm sure he didnt mean it like that...





Iraq is in such a mess that getting any kind of order there will take a very long time. I dont think it makes any difference that the Americans are there or not. If it was the UN with an occupying force, rather than the Americans, the country would be in the same situation as it is now...

 

[Munkey]

I think that it is the fact that it is American's occupying them and over-ruling them that is particularly galling to Iraqis. Though, yes i do agree that the country would be in much of the same mess if the UN was the occupying force, but for different reasons.

It will indeed be quite a long time until the situation even begins to have a resemblance to normality.

 

[Cyfr]

Just give them Saddam back

 

[SilverHood]

Nuke the buggers, and take over their oil!

 

[Tom]

I think you film things to make money.

Theres a world of difference between what I do for a living, and what the headline writers of the tabloid press do for a living, and also between the effect that both industries have on popular opinion.

 

[~Yuckfou~]

Nuke the buggers, and take over their oil!

true.

 

[Tinky]

Just give them Saddam back

Despite the obvious abuses that his regime inflicted the advantage Saddam had was that managed to control the (at least) three distinct groupings within Iraq - yes by torture and executions - but he managed it. Don't be fooled into thinking that the only thing going on in Iraq right now is conflict against the US/UK/Coalition - it's a power struggle between the different political and religious sects in Iraq. It's naive to think that it's all the West's fault, if you want to blame a country blame the UK - we need to take a large chuck of the blame for the way the middle east is today.

 

[maxi]

The Iraqi people can't really decide what direction to take their country, because they have no power to do so. In this country, we have several hundred years of civilised rule, no civil wars, and the rule of law is well established. In Iraq, its not the same. Until these terrorists (for those are the ringleaders, most of them aren't even Iraqis) are apprehended or killed, not much will improve.

will the killing or apprehension of current leaders improve matters? or will there just be new leaders, and others picking up where they left off?

and so...then what? 4 years down the line, with thousands more civilians and armed forces dead, do they back out, leave them to it?

I'd like to know what people think will happen.

 

[dysfunction]

I'd like to know what people think will happen.

What do you think will happen?

 

[leggy]

What do you think will happen?

No. what do you think will happen?

 

[maxi]

What do you think will happen?

I'm not sure, but then, that's one of the reasons why I was against the war in the first place

There's loads of things that could happen ...

1) US starts a war somewhere else, in order to distract from the failure iin Iraq(like they did in Afghanistan)

2) the elections go ahead next year, the US draws troops out slowly over a few years, resulting in what looks like a stable govt. but in actual fact is as bad as the one they displaced originally.

3) the elections dont go ahead because things aren't stable enough to reliably do so, the US troops remain there in force for the forseable future, before finally backing out entirely with huge civilian and armed force deaths, leaving the country to clean itself up and probably under the rule of...a fundamentalist regime!!

4)or it could all go really well, and a stable democracy could remain as the US slowly hands over full control to the Iraq government, leaving a peaceful and potentially prosperous and healthy country forever in debt to the good, Christian Americans who liberated them.


I don't see it ending well, I don't see how it COULD end well, and I'm not just wishing a pox on those pesky republicans...i'm pretty lost as to any positive result of this...if someone who believes 'it'll be ok', would explain to me why they believe so i'd be grateful.

 

[Xtro]

I'll try to be brief.

I think the US struggles when its "enemy" is not a state or nation but a belief, an ideology.

I really don't agree with the fundamentalist view that the US/Brits/etc are modern Crusaders pillaging the Middle East. I don't think all Muslims are SATAN'S CHEERLEADERS or anything.

I think the US has started something that it can never finish. Its become a war against Islam...at least to the islamic extremists it has. I was actually for the war, I thought Saddam needed to be deposed and so he went. But now I'm against it and our continuing presence there. I think its inevitable that a Iran like fundamentalist regime will be be installed there, its just a matter of when.

The US has to learn it cannot break the will of half the world, whatever the right wing moral majority think.

Sad state of affairs.

 

[dysfunction]

No. what do you think will happen?

I think there will be unrest in Iraq for a very very long time. I believe the elections will go ahead and within a year or maybe even 2 yrs America will withdraw completely leaving them to it.

Its going to be very messy. Its probably going to be similar to Palestine vs Israel war...which is almost never ending.

The US has to learn it cannot break the will of half the world

You could say they had approval from half the world...