End of an Era ?

xane

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BBC Article: How Ferguson invited Euro exit

A good summary and mostly what I agree with, but do the panel agree this could signal the end of an era ? With Arsenal now in literally unbeatable form, and Chelski with seemingly bottomless coffers, we might see some real competition at last, although even 3rd place nowdays wins you a licence to print Euros.

Put aside your "Man Ure" glasses for a moment and see how this changes English League football, I personally relish the prospect of more horses in the running (sly jab there) every year.

West Ham thumped the Dons last night too, so I'm happy :)
 

SilverHood

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As a Man U fan, I'm not really that surprised things are going pear shaped...

Arsenal are actually deserving of winning the treble this year.... they are playing amazingly, while we're strugling to keep form.

Everyone has their ups and downs... it has to get worse before it can get better... just look at Arsenal.

A chance for a break - get the Euro champs out of the way, then start afresh with a full squad next season.

The FA cup is our last chance.... and I think Arsenal will take that, sadly.
 

gunner440

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alex was stupid during the transfer season

he had the chance of turning things around by buying some defenders

he buys saha instead?!?!

last night's match he had no defender substitutes lol..

fa cup+some league matches left.... not like the current defenders won't get suspended/injured in the process + silvestre's been ruled out for some weeks now


as an arsenal fan i think the league is ours already fa cup... i think we'll beat man u by one goal only or so

as for europe pffff semis at most i think ... not enough euro experience for some of the team


the premship is more open now but open to 3 teams instead of 2 really :|

teams like liverpool newcastle should be challenging for no.1

same for leeds who've been v.v.v. unlucky
 

mank!

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Arsenal will win the FA Cup and the Premiership at a canter and I think they've got a good shot at Europe if they keep their squad free of injuries and suspensions. They're in simply scintillating form.

Man Utd's demise began with losing Beckham, they've not even come close to replacing him and Fergie panic bought players after losing out on Ronaldinho and Djemba-Djemba and Kleberson have looked poor and I don't rate Ronaldo at all, once people catch onto his neat tricks and just start giving him a polite shove he'll be completely ineffective. Saha was a good buy, but scoring goals wasn't their problem was it? Obviously losing Ferdinand has been a big blow and something they understandably couldn't have foreseen at the start of the season but I'm convinced that losing Beckham, not only his playing ability but his personality and the manner of his exit has unsettled the camp.

I'd be surprised to see Fergie leave, but they're going to have to really pick themselves up next season because Chelsea will come on leaps and bounds next season. They've even lured Robben from under Man Utd's very nose.
 

xane

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Aside from all of their mistakes, its not about Man U entirely, the point is that the English League is suddenly more interesting again. Arsenal started breaking the "I wonder who will come second this year" rot. and now it continues with Chelski in the frame, I'm looking forward to next season already.

The one-and-a-half horse race of seasons past is possibly over. I don't really see it as a demise of MUFC, rather the fact that a few teams have caught up in the game, and that everyone is starting to experience the lucky breaks rather than the select few.

IMO Fergies woes are entirely of his own doing, even the Magnier/McManus debacle, it was Ferguson who originally brought them into Man United shareholding to get himself a boardroom seat after he retired from managing, and the sheer arrogance over Ferdinand, thinking they could get away with it, was astounding, even by Fergies standards.
 

mank!

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xane said:
Aside from all of their mistakes, its not about Man U entirely, the point is that the English League is suddenly more interesting again. Arsenal started breaking the "I wonder who will come second this year" rot. and now it continues with Chelski in the frame, I'm looking forward to next season already.

The one-and-a-half horse race of seasons past is possibly over. I don't really see it as a demise of MUFC, rather the fact that a few teams have caught up in the game, and that everyone is starting to experience the lucky breaks rather than the select few.

It's still not that open. I find the Nationwide leagues more interesting as the strong teams invariably move up so there's always new challengers. Division Two there are three teams who could take the title, feasibly four, and perhaps five to take the automatic spots. It's very open.

I can't see the Premiership being much more open next season, Liverpool and Newcastle are still miles behind.
 

Doh_boy

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xane said:
the sheer arrogance over Ferdinand, thinking they could get away with it, was astounding, even by Fergies standards.
I think that's a bit harsh since four players in Italy got 6 months each for pleading guilty and it was a mistake even if the mistake must be treated as if it was a positive sample. Also it should have worked in his favour the fact that he and united asked for the sample team to come back as soon as they realised.

As for united, our passing has been shocking for a while now (before this season) and we are finding it hard to impose ourselves on games more than we used to. Also we need to start buying great players rather than good players. The difference is telling. IMHO we need to buy a world-class defender and one full-back. We also need to stop playing p.neville in midfield and play kleberson more. I rate ronaldo a lot, he has pace and his crossing is coming on leaps and bounds. As for figuring out his tricks, his tricks aren't new they've been around ages what's important is his speed. He doesn't need to pass the full-back everytime just enough to get a decent number of crosses in. I also wouldn't mind seeing Chris eagles playing again, he seemed a damn good prospect. Also fletcher, I'm undecided about him, he plays well against crap opposition but is frequently 'absent' against quality teams.

The sight of us needing to use the long-ball tactic against Fulham was painfull. I remember matches where we could take the piss just passing it around...it seems those days are gone :(
 

Doomy

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I dont think Man Utd's season has been all that bad really, they are in 2nd place, they havent got the strongest side they have ever fielded, its piss poor atm due to lots of absentees, Ronaldo hasnt impressed me much yet, hes fast but too little, Kleberson (WHO? :eek6: ) hasnt done anything decent at all really, Djemba Djemba is looking good but doesnt play enough. And the entire team has to play around these new guys, it takes time for a side to settle and with the injury problem, things have been made worse.

Thats not the problem at all, the problem is Arsenals form. Unbeaten in the premiership, usually by this time teams have lost a few games and whats the point difference? 9 points? Thats really not that much at all.

I had to laugh earlier, Vierra was clear outside box and made a pass to Kanu (good old ganglylegs) which would have been a sitter had kanu not decided to ignore the ball turn round and get closer to goal. The thing that made me laugh was the smiles, there wasnt any 'OMG u missed u madman' usually assosciated with missed oportunities like that. They just smiled at each other like they were playing in the B team in primary school and carried on.

Arsenal are AWESOME at the moment, the only thing that should worry man utd tho is that team getting better next season, then theyll have some real shit to contend with. I keep saying to myself, i must be dreaming this, considering arsenals stop-go attmpts at trophys over the years this is a very nice thing for a gunner to watch.

I shall be betting on the treble, not because i think it will happen, just cant see arsenal letting anything go this season at all and you know what? The thing im REALLY hoping for is a Real Madrid VS Arsenal Final, even if we lose, that football game will go down as a good one.
 

Tom

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Its a bit rich of people to criticise the most succesful English league football manager ever on the basis of a few bad results.

The way I see it, the old guard (Nevilles, Beckham, Giggs, Scholes, Butt etc) are now in the same position that the Pallisters and Robsons were in the early 90's. Training the new talent.

You'll see. It won't be too long before Man U start getting back to where they were in the late 90's.
 

xane

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Tom said:
You'll see. It won't be too long before Man U start getting back to where they were in the late 90's.

Tom, Man United are already there, however, what is different is that other teams are there too. Although there are quite a few games left to screw it all up, their record is comparable to the league wins in 95/96 and 96/97.

Apart from the cleanout in 99/00, they have been pretty consistant throughout since the current Premiership was in place, the difference is that other teams, particularly Arsenal, have started to match their record.

Ferguson has to pull something spectacular out of his hat to get ahead now, back in the early 90s he pulled a bloody huge wad of cash out and that got him ahead, now what ?
 

Darthshearer

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I think the media have blown the Man Ure thing out of all proportion. They are still an oustanding side and they have some problems, similar to last year and they still won the League!

They have lost a few games recently and have dropped back, the media are making if they have dropped back 3-4 years, this is not the case.

Fergies has bought a lot of players this season and will take a season IMO to settle in as with Cheseas.

Football goes through stages where a team will dominate, but I dont think coming up we shall have a similar dominance to what Man Ure had in the early - mid 90's they were awesome. In the future we shall have Arsenal as the main force then Man Ure then Chelski. for a few more years IMO and then maybe Chelski shall be really come through.

Man Ure fans may worry but not true Man Ure fans as they understand that blips come along as with Liverpool when they dominated. How many times have Man Ure scored in the last minute? They nearly did on Tuesday night just after Porto scored!

Come on people Man Ure are still a force just going through a bad patch. All that Fergie needs to do in the Summer is go out and get a defender, he could get Southgate for a few million, he is trusty and good and will be there whilst O'Shea and the others come along. IMO he should drop Kean to centre of defence and the slap O'Shea in CM.
 

Doh_boy

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xane said:
Ferguson has to pull something spectacular out of his hat to get ahead now, back in the early 90s he pulled a bloody huge wad of cash out and that got him ahead, now what ?
Where did you get that impression?
For as long as I can remember united, in comparison to other top teams have under-invested. Our success in the 90s can be traced to the great bunch of youngsters that came up and the influence of Cantona. I was going to post a list of year-by-year spending but the only site I could find was incomplete. One of the long-standing arguments of united fans have been 'the money-men' and how we never get top/expensive players. One example was shearer.

Darth, to an extent I agree with you but the last two (maybe a bit more) seasons we've been well under-par. We've still been winning but to watch it just wasn't as 'magic' (ok awful use of the word but the best I can come up with) as they used to be.

As for buying southgate, NOOOOO! I say keep o'shea on the left back, Imho he does well there. We need to buy another stam, when he was here he was top. Ferdinand is good, was getting better but didn't fill me with the confidence stam (and before him pallister and bruce :D top pair!) did. Howard, despite all the press, is an amazing keeper and I wouldn't swap him for another keeper in the premiership (ok ok maybe van der sar :p).

I'm interested in seeing what healy (I think that's his name...celtic youngster) is like and if he gets a few games.
 

Darthshearer

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I dont know how Ferhie has done it with Howard he is a class Keeper definatley up in the top 5 of Premiership Keepers.

Palister and Bruce were class, I like Pallister a lot. Class TV pundit too.

It makes me laugh. If Man Ure win the FA Cup this season, which they still have a chance it although they have to get past the impressive Gooners, then thats a poor / average season for Man Ure! Man I would give my left testy for the Toon to win that!
 

xane

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Doh_boy said:
Where did you get that impression?
For as long as I can remember united, in comparison to other top teams have under-invested. Our success in the 90s can be traced to the great bunch of youngsters that came up and the influence of Cantona.

Manchester United spent over £8 million back in 1989, netting Ince and Pallister amongst others, that was an astronomical amount at the time, and still is today for many Premiership clubs.

More recently, they paid £19m for Van Nistelroy, £28m for Veron, and a year later £29m for Ferdinand. The only reason you don't see figures like this on their own is they are balanced by player sales, but its still huge amounts.

Money is not only about buying players, it's about paying them, and they have consistantly had the highest wage bill that eats up 40-50% of their profits, and there is all the specialist staff, and support services, which in Manchester United's case are second to none.
 

Doh_boy

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I still don't think our success was down to money (as in 'we didn't buy the titles') You obviously have to spend some money.

I dunno if this proves or disproves your point but...

United's wage bill is, as you've said, 48% of their turnover. But the times infers that that is actually quite good (it says 'but it represents a miserly 47.91% of turnover').
 

Darthshearer

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Doh_boy said:
I still don't think our success was down to money (as in 'we didn't buy the titles') You obviously have to spend some money.

I dunno if this proves or disproves your point but...

United's wage bill is, as you've said, 48% of their turnover. But the times infers that that is actually quite good (it says 'but it represents a miserly 47.91% of turnover').

How can people say Man Ure's succes is down to money. I agree with you Doh Boy.

Neville Brothers = Cost 0
Scholes = Cost 0
Giggs = Cost 0
Beckham = Cost 0

Then Youngesters coming through now, Fletcher, O'Shea, Brown etc.

Great Buys on the cheap also by Fergie Cantona as a prime example.

Now I may be sounding like a Man Ure fan, but I aint, I am a football fan and its clear to see who bought the title and who aint. Yes getting Veron, Ferdinand & Van Horse Heed for large amounts could be seen to be just doing that. What about Arsenal? They have Bought Henry, Viera, Pires at large amount? Yet Venger has also keept his faith in good traditional Arsenal Players, Parlour, Dixon, Adams, Seaman, Cole, etc.

What would have happend if Chelski won the league this season? It is in now doubt they would have bought it. Same goes for Leeds a few season ago.
 

xane

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You are still talking player purchases, these guys earn a wage you know, and at Manchester United there are a lot of players earning big money, you only need to look in the car park to know that.

Manchester United stay in profit because their wages are actually quite a low percentage of their turnover compared to other clubs, this gives them an enormous amount of spending power to attract players to the club, something they have not been doing recently. As an absolute value, Manchester United are still the number one wage bill.

When a Premiership Club is also a company, buying a player is an investment and adds to the net worth of the company and can probably be regained when the player is sold on, whereas player wages are an expense and simply reduce profits. A lot of Premiership clubs, and almost all Nationwide clubs, have struggled to keep checks on player wage expenses, it is what is killing off Leeds right now.
 

xane

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Darthshearer said:
Neville Brothers = Cost 0
Scholes = Cost 0
Giggs = Cost 0
Beckham = Cost 0

It is wrong to say these players cost zero, they came up through the Theatre of Dreams, which is a huge investment and costs a lot of money to run. In the past a lot of clubs have abandoned youth programmes because of the expense, they are a luxury item only the top clubs can keep open.

It is worth noting that West Ham kept their youth scheme open too, the similarly named Academy of Dreams, which has generated a lot of players now sadly lost.
 

Darthshearer

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The thing Man Ure do well and do very well is the way the make player purchases.

Veron,Rio, Van Horse Heed. The clubs that they have been bought from wouldnt have been paid the full amount as Man Ure never do! Rio is a prime example.

The Saha deal, wouldnt suprise me if they have done it again, paid a certain amount and X amount if XYZ are met plus an extra if another is met.

Thats why IMO they didnt persue Defoe, as West Ham were in need of money and thats also why Ferdinhand didnt go straight there!
 

Darthshearer

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xane said:
It is wrong to say these players cost zero, they came up through the Theatre of Dreams, which is a huge investment and costs a lot of money to run. In the past a lot of clubs have abandoned youth programmes because of the expense, they are a luxury item only the top clubs can keep open.

It is worth noting that West Ham kept their youth scheme open too, the similarly named Academy of Dreams, which has generated a lot of players now sadly lost.

Ok fair enough.

Right if Man Ure would buy them here IMO the price they would be buying them for in the Mid - Late 90's.

Neville Brothers = Cost 5m x 2
Scholes = Cost 8-9m
Giggs = Cost 8-9m
Beckham = Cost 8-9m

Total of 37m!
 

Doh_boy

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:s

Now I'm really confused as to what your point is now xane. At first I thought you were saying 'United bought success before, will he be able to do it again?' then you started sounding like a united fan who always complains we 'never buy the best'. (I can't be arsed to read back either :p so I'll just stay confused :D )

United have always tried to buy 'clever' and not be stung for loads of money, look at the robben transfer a 19 (?) Yr old with a couple of seasons in dutch football - £12M, he's a good player but that price is too high. Granted we're rumoured to have bid 5 but I reckon that 8 or 9 would have been a good price for him. Our wages are steadily getting worse, more expensive, we used to be quite good as I remember.

United still have one of the best squads in the premiership and, IMHO don't need to buy too many players. The players we bought this season are quality and I've not been disapointed with any of them(within reason). As for what to buy, we only need defenders at the moment, our midfield is where we have the most quality and is where most players move about.
As for strikers, we're ok but I'd like to see some youngsters get a game here and their, prove their worth so to speak.
 

xane

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Darthshearer said:
The thing Man Ure do well and do very well is the way the make player purchases.

Totally agree, but my point is that now they are not the only one who can demand the price, as has been demonstrated in the last few weeks, other clubs are now rich enough to swipe players away from them, beforehand Manchester Uniteds only opposition on player purchasing came from overseas.
 

xane

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Doh_boy said:
Now I'm really confused as to what your point is now xane.

The point drifted a little, what I was saying is that at the start of the Premiership, Manchester United used purchasing power to get ahead, now that advantage is gone, so the era of a one-team dominance of English football is coming to an end.
 

Doh_boy

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xane said:
Totally agree, but my point is that now they are not the only one who can demand the price, as has been demonstrated in the last few weeks, other clubs are now rich enough to swipe players away from them, beforehand Manchester Uniteds only opposition on player purchasing came from overseas.
Right (now I know your point :p )

As I said above, united always try to buy 'clever' and always seem to manage to miss some great players. It's usually not down to other clubs getting them so much as us refusing to pay the price. I don't think we can demand a cheap price anymore since chelsea seem to take the italian route and pay more/over the odds to ensure you get the player. They also seem to be buying loads, so no-one else can have the players and then see which players do ok and sell the others. It's a sort of throw everything at the wall and see what sticks. It's interesting to watch but it worries me since the italian game nearly destoryed itself doing that same thing. I reckon chelsea will win the title eventually, blackburn did.

/edit
The end of one-team dominance can only be a good thing. I think everyone can agree on that. BUT I don't think the way chelsea are buying is as good for the english game as people are saying it is. :)
 

Darthshearer

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xane said:
The point drifted a little, what I was saying is that at the start of the Premiership, Manchester United used purchasing power to get ahead, now that advantage is gone, so the era of a one-team dominance of English football is coming to an end.

Who did they buy apart from Keane, Cantona? Man Ure nutured these into the players they were / are! Schemichael another example, its not like what Chelsea are doing now with seasoned players, Crespo, Duff, Mutu, Cole etc.
 

Doh_boy

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Darthshearer said:
Who did they buy apart from Keane, Cantona? Man Ure nutured these into the players they were / are! Schemichael another example, its not like what Chelsea are doing now with seasoned players, Crespo, Duff, Mutu, Cole etc.
He's talking about 89, which among the one's I can't remember (I was only 9 ffs!), webb, ince, hughes, pallister, (bruce- I think), parker (which was around 91-92), Irwin.

A fair amount was bought by fergie in the years between 96-90. Most of it was because he either disliked the players (strachan and mcGrath because of their drinking/gambling/nightclubbing behaviour) or because they were getting too old. Most of the team in 90 were bought in the four previous years, robson and maybe the blonde-haired keeper that didn't get many games.....walsh?

This really is the limit of my memory. The point is, though, they may have spent 8m but individually the players didn't really cost much, it's just he bought a lot of players :p.
 

xane

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Darthshearer said:
Who did they buy apart from Keane, Cantona?

Grrr ! I'm going to ask one more time not to zero in on transfer fees, players need money for wages, facilities like the youth scheme need money, support services like the physios need money, Manchester United spend a lot on these things, _and_ they are constantly topping the charts for player transfers as well, maybe not every year but certainly most years.
 

Darthshearer

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xane said:
The point drifted a little, what I was saying is that at the start of the Premiership, Manchester United used purchasing power to get ahead, now that advantage is gone, so the era of a one-team dominance of English football is coming to an end.

Yeh but the thing is these players were bought for very little money. Yes they were payed nice wages, facilities etc nice, but I think you are wrong in saying they bought it.

All in all good things must and always do come to an end BUT I wouldnt fully write Man Ure off, it would be silly.
 

Darthshearer

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What a complete tosser you are!

If you have botherd to read the posts I havent continually slated Man Ure have I? I have praised them and other teams.

Xane ment it by not "hate" Man Ure thing IMO. I do it for a laugh so what, I call em Man Ure, they are still I class outfit its a Joke Name, so what live with it you sad twat, get a life!
 

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It's not that he likes Manchester United. It's not that you are slating them by saying 'Man Ure'. It's just that it really isn't very funny.

Sorry.
 

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