ELQs the most stupid thing ever.

[Jeros]

ELQ rules mean you cannot get financial support for any qualification that is considered "lesser" than ones you already have.

Picture this, your 45 years old, your industry has just be automated or otherwise tanked, you need to retrain, cost of licensees, courses etc can run into thousands of pounds. You apply for funding, "sorry you already have a qualification's of that level or better, no support for you"

You: "just a loan ill pay it back"

Gov: "no your skills should last a lifetime!"

You: "the industry no longer exists!/is dead/you fucked it over"

Gov: "bad luck"



I see what they were trying to do, stop people staying in education forever and what have you, but such a sweeping set of rules with no basis on individual circumstances is just going to fuck people over who have mortgages and family's to support that cant be done on a maccy Ds wage.

Madness.

 

[BloodOmen]

Does seem abit daft like.

 

[Raven]

Skill sets are interchangeable. There is little reason for the government to pay for someone who has been working for 20 odd years to re-train because they fancy a change.

 

[cHodAX]

What kind of qualifications can you get these loans for? Do they have to be academic or do they extend to vocational courses as well?

 

[cHodAX]

Skill sets are interchangeable. There is little reason for the government to pay for someone who has been working for 20 odd years to re-train because they fancy a change.

Agreed to a certain extent, how about people who can no longer do the old job because of serious health issues though?

 

[Jeros]

Agreed to a certain extent, how about people who can no longer do the old job because of serious health issues though?

Or my father, was a printer for years, then printing machines took over en-masse essentially making 90% of the company surplus to requirements.

And its ALL qualifications, using the governments somewhat vague "level" system. Any qualification you started but did not finish will count as achieved for the purposes of funding.

However you get one year of funding at the undergrad level. So if you did a 3 year degree 20 years ago, and want to do another now, you can get support for the last year.

Funding years = - years you have already done + 1


If you are doing a degree and your postgrad is not considered the same level as a normal postgrad and is considered closer to a Ba/BSC then ELQ rules apply, so you could end up with a bill of 20 grand + to continue to post grad, you see ELQs remove ALL student funding form the educational institution you are applying too, so without the "normal" level of cash institutions get for taking you on that you never "see" you could be looking at close to international student fees!.

Has caught some poor fuckers out who had no idea why they suddenly got a huge bill out the blue.


However as far as i'm aware, ELQs do not apply to English students studying in NI, Wales and Scotland.

 

[megaman]

Skill sets are interchangeable. There is little reason for the government to pay for someone who has been working for 20 odd years to re-train because they fancy a change.

using the phrase "they fancy a change" is quite offensive and implies that striving for a career you enjoy and would do well in is somehow a "wrongfull" thing do do.
and quite frankly comming out with something like that is no better than a steriotypical cliche american republican screaming communism/socialism at anything he does not like.

also far from being "little reason for the government" to pay, there are in fact 2 very very good reasons.
1) The human rights act, which is legally binding on UK law, states that there must be equlity of access to all levels of education and the only ground on which you can discriminate is ability. And no this right does not magically end when a person reaches higher education or if he is going to university a second or third or tenth time. and yes chargeing fees which act as a barrier for poorer people DOES count as something which reduces equality of access.

2) If you bar a person from persueing accademic education or a specific vocational qualification simply because he cannot pay you have a situation in which the ammount of wealth a person is born into determines how much he can earn and what carreers he can strive for, in extream cases the poorest are trapped at the bottom with no way out. One person can litterlly have to work 2 minimum wage jobs his whole life just to live in poverty while another person gets to become a doctor or a lawyer and the only reason for this is because one was born to poor pearents and the other had better off pearents. This inequality is utterly unnaceptable.

 

[megaman]

I fully agree with the OP
ELQ is absurd and unacceptable

Those who do the responsible thing by working hard in school and pursuing their academic education to degree level are prevented from then doing career specific qualifications all because they did the sensible thing when they were younger.
(But this is OK because the poor should not be given any opportunities and if they have had the gaul to take an education which they cant afford to pay for they must be prevented from doing it again)

Those who take a career specific degree for their first degree and then do not succeed in getting into their chosen field are barred from training to do something else, effectively trapping them in a minimum wage job for life.
(But this is OK because if a poor person attempts to better himself and fails the first time it must mean that he "made a mistake" or "made a bad decision" or "didn’t do his research" and whatever he did wrong must be so serious that he deserves to be punished by being trapped in working poverty his whole life)

Those who are in careers which require you to keep your skills up to date, such as IT, cant keep their skills up to date and so quickly become unemployable.
(But this is OK because the poor should not be able to work for more than minimum wage and this means that if they do managed to do a little bit better then minimum wage they are quickly put down again, back where they belong)

Those in industries where you need extra qualifications to advance your career find themselves permanently stuck at the bottom of the career ladder
(But that is OK because senior or even middle positions are the privilege of those who were born rich, the poor should be grateful that they were even allowed to enter the door of a specific profession)

In industries where it is common to train for entry as a mature student (medicine and archaeology are examples of this) the poor are increasingly excluded
(that is OK because although cultural diversity is valued, the experience and values which people from working class backgrounds can bring to the professions is not valued)

In short
All ELQ does is give a person one chance and one chance only to start a career, and then prevent him from advancing within that profession or keeping his skills up to date.
I have a degree, i have considered several career options which would require a masters, but i dare not attempt to enter these professions because if i fail i will no longer be able to access ANY vocational training and if i succeed i will not be able to advance beyond the bottom level of the chosen career unless it is in an industry where employers pay for training.

and i am getting sick of it

Of course those with wealthy families do not have any of these problems.

 

[Hawkwind]

2) If you bar a person from persueing accademic education or a specific vocational qualification simply because he cannot pay you have a situation in which the ammount of wealth a person is born into determines how much he can earn and what carreers he can strive for, in extream cases the poorest are trapped at the bottom with no way out. One person can litterlly have to work 2 minimum wage jobs his whole life just to live in poverty while another person gets to become a doctor or a lawyer and the only reason for this is because one was born to poor pearents and the other had better off pearents. This inequality is utterly unnaceptable.

There are ways around this. Join the Police or Armed Forces under graduate schemes. Also, most reputable companies provide financial assistance for Educational courses, day/block release schemes etc. Companies claim this back in Tax from the government which is the way they encourage it along with reward schemes and training organisation recognition.

People seem to want everything handed to them on a plate these days. If it becomes something they have to work for, they bitch about it. Careers in a certain profession are not a right, it is something you work towards.

 

[Raven]

Those who do the responsible thing by working hard in school and pursuing their academic education to degree level are prevented from then doing career specific qualifications all because they did the sensible thing when they were younger.
(But this is OK because the poor should not be given any opportunities and if they have had the gaul to take an education which they cant afford to pay for they must be prevented from doing it again)

I know plenty of people who have gone on to university from all sorts of backgrounds, hell someone I know was basically homeless at 16 and is now a human rights lawyer for the UN, having passed two bar exams in America, she did it all herself. Wealth has no effect on higher education (baring the odd exception of the old boys club at Oxford/Cambridge)

Those who take a career specific degree for their first degree and then do not succeed in getting into their chosen field are barred from training to do something else, effectively trapping them in a minimum wage job for life.
(But this is OK because if a poor person attempts to better himself and fails the first time it must mean that he "made a mistake" or "made a bad decision" or "didn’t do his research" and whatever he did wrong must be so serious that he deserves to be punished by being trapped in working poverty his whole life)

That awkward moment when you realise a 2.2 in media studies doesn't allow you to walk into a 40k a year job I guess. If you get a shit degree in a pointless subject then you should expect to struggle.

Those who are in careers which require you to keep your skills up to date, such as IT, cant keep their skills up to date and so quickly become unemployable.
(But this is OK because the poor should not be able to work for more than minimum wage and this means that if they do managed to do a little bit better then minimum wage they are quickly put down again, back where they belong)

Any company worth it's salt will develop staff and offer training, both "on the job" and qualifications. Naturally this will only be to the staff they value, it makes sense for their staff to know what they are doing. Being a business that exists to make money they wont just throw freebies at everybody...why should they?

Those in industries where you need extra qualifications to advance your career find themselves permanently stuck at the bottom of the career ladder
(But that is OK because senior or even middle positions are the privilege of those who were born rich, the poor should be grateful that they were even allowed to enter the door of a specific profession)

I am not quite sure where the wealth of your parents comes into adult education and career progression...

In industries where it is common to train for entry as a mature student (medicine and archaeology are examples of this) the poor are increasingly excluded
(that is OK because although cultural diversity is valued, the experience and values which people from working class backgrounds can bring to the professions is not valued)

See above, I am still not sure where class comes into it, if it even exists any more. People seem to refer to the non-working people as the working class these days, which is just absurd.

In short
All ELQ does is give a person one chance and one chance only to start a career, and then prevent him from advancing within that profession or keeping his skills up to date.
I have a degree, i have considered several career options which would require a masters, but i dare not attempt to enter these professions because if i fail i will no longer be able to access ANY vocational training and if i succeed i will not be able to advance beyond the bottom level of the chosen career unless it is in an industry where employers pay for training.

No, it gives everyone the chance of higher education, if they want to retrain later on in their lives it expects them to be an adult and do it themselves, there are countless options available to retrain, some cost money. I don't see why the government should have to fork out because you want a career change.

and i am getting sick of it

Of course those with wealthy families do not have any of these problems.

Again with the wealth of parents nonsense...what has that got to do with anything education related? Bad parents wont bother to push their children, good parents will. Wealth has nothing to do with it.

May I ask what your degree is in? You seem to be angry that you aren't getting a hand out. If you want something, work for it. Nothing in life is free.

I didn't get a degree, hell I barely finished school and I am doing OK, it could be better but I have got off my arse and worked for it, I haven't had any hand outs and haven't asked for them. My wife is currently retraining to become a teacher, something we are paying for because, you know...we pay our way and don't expect a hand out from the government for everything.

 

[megaman]

There are ways around this. Join the Police or Armed Forces under graduate schemes. Also, most reputable companies provide financial assistance for Educational courses, day/block release schemes etc. Companies claim this back in Tax from the government which is the way they encourage it along with reward schemes and training organisation recognition.

The armed forces have under grad schemes, the poilice i am not sure about
but in any case

requireing a person to do this only makes it more difficult for a person from a poor background to aquire an education
firstly - it is not enough for him to succeed in getting the grades needed to be accepted onto his course, he also has to succeed in getting into the military or police.
secondly - why should a person have to risk his life in combat in order to pursue a course of education when somebody else does not just because the second person had rich pearents.

People seem to want everything handed to them on a plate these days. If it becomes something they have to work for, they bitch about it. Careers in a certain profession are not a right, it is something you work towards.

no people do not want everything handed to them on a silver plate
they want to be given the OPPORTUNITY to achieve things for themselves, they expect to have to work hard to become a doctor or a solicitor or to get an accademic degree and they dont expect to be barred just because they are born into a poor background

if you want someone to somehow "pay" for university then you should introduce some burden which is equal to alll such as community service or military service
to expect people to pay with money is an unequal burden because some people have families who can give them any amount of money on a silver plate but at the other end of the scale some people have families who cannot give them anything. traditionally this would have been unfair because it would mean that one person could go to university without working for it while another gets to go to university only if he works full time during the summer and works 20 hours a week in tearm time.
but thanks to the fee increase it is no longer unfair - it is excussionary because it now costs far more than a person who has nobody to support him could ever get doing minimum wage jobs (remember no loans are avaliavble for ELQ) but on the other end of the scale there is no limit to how rich a persons daddy can be.

oh and before you tell me that in a "capitalist" or "free market" society that is that way it works and the price of a service is not determined by a persons ability to pay, and before you tery to compare wanting education to wanting a car know this
education a right which is protected by the human rights act. This right does not end when a person wishes to enter higher education the human right act clearly states that access to higher education must be equal and specifically states that wealth or social standing cannot be used as grounds to bar someone access.

the human right act also states that equality of access to education must be a reality and not just theoretical or illusionary. this is important because some people seam to think that if a person cannot get into university because he cant afford it then he has not really been excluded (this makes no sense to me) but the human rights act makes it clear that this belief is not valid.

 

[megaman]

I know plenty of people who have gone on to university from all sorts of backgrounds, hell someone I know was basically homeless at 16 and is now a human rights lawyer for the UN, having passed two bar exams in America, she did it all herself. Wealth has no effect on higher education (baring the odd exception of the old boys club at Oxford/Cambridge)


That awkward moment when you realise a 2.2 in media studies doesn't allow you to walk into a 40k a year job I guess. If you get a shit degree in a pointless subject then you should expect to struggle.

I never mentioned media studies, why would you mention media studies
media studies is the thing which the tabloids quote in articles aimed at the uneducated gormless masses.

as for your UN lawyer, how much did she have to pay.

Any company worth it's salt will develop staff and offer training, both "on the job" and qualifications. Naturally this will only be to the staff they value, it makes sense for their staff to know what they are doing. Being a business that exists to make money they wont just throw freebies at everybody...why should they?

not true
in some industries such as medicine and the merchant navy this seams to be the case
but in many industries it is not - why should a poor person be barred from these industries just because he worked hard to get a good education when he was younger

I am not quite sure where the wealth of your parents comes into adult education and career progression...

because if a person has pearents (and other family members) who are able and willing to pay any tuition fees which have to be paid in order to get access to a course then they will do so regardless of his age, being from a privilidged background does not magially dissapear when a person turns 16, 18 or 21.
On the other hand if a person does not have family who are able and willing to support him nothing magically changes when he becomes 16, 18 or 12. he does not suddenly become able to afford fees of any ammount just because he has turned 18, a person does not suddenly become able to get a "Job" and earn "any amount of money" just because he has become an adult (a person from a prvilidged background might do so because they can suddenly inheret an unlimited amount of money but there is no possibility that this will magically happen to a person from a poor background)

See above, I am still not sure where class comes into it, if it even exists any more. People seem to refer to the non-working people as the working class these days, which is just absurd.

When i refered to class what i actually meant was wealth
bar a person from education or vocational traning just because he does not have enought money and you trap him in poverty

No, it gives everyone the chance of higher education, if they want to retrain later on in their lives it expects them to be an adult and do it themselves, there are countless options available to retrain, some cost money. I don't see why the government should have to fork out because you want a career change.

Everyone already had the chance to get a degree
all this does is prevent person from future training and re-training to matter what their needs are.

Again with the wealth of parents nonsense...what has that got to do with anything education related? Bad parents wont bother to push their children, good parents will. Wealth has nothing to do with it.

ELQ fees prevent anyone who does not have enough money to pay thoes fees from continuing education no matter what their reason for it is
Many years ago even primary school education was not free
this would mean that no matter how much the pearents valued education and no matter how responsible the child was he was barred from getting an education if he had poor pearents
the exact same thing happens if you introduce fees and done provide a person with funding at ANY age. things do not magically change because someone has become an "adult"

May I ask what your degree is in? You seem to be angry that you aren't getting a hand out. If you want something, work for it. Nothing in life is free.

I got a BA(HONS) 2.1 in law
I choose to do a degree because i know that degrees show a high level of ability and develop a range of transferable skills to a high level - and so by taking a degree i would be more likely to be able to start a better career
I choose law because i knew it was a difficult and respected subject.

during my course I considered becomeing a solicitor or a barraster.
However to enter ether profession you need to do a post grad course which costs about £10,000 and then you have to get a training with a law firm, these are so sought after that they are near impossible to get
I am litterally in a situation where I have to pay £10,000 to do one course (and pass said course) just to get into a situation where i am unlikely to be able to finish my training

I took work experience placements and mini-pupilages in various law firms and chambers. I enquired many times about if or not it is possible to secure the training scheeme a few years in advance so that i can take the course which costs £10,000 safe in the knoladge that i would be able to continue my nessesary traning after - i was always told that i may as well forget about it, the industry just is not setup that way.

This is not a problem for someone who has pearents who can give them the £10,000 - they can do the course and not have to worry about the high probibility of not being able to continue the step which comes after that.
but i dont have any rich family members, i would have to save up the £10,000 on minimum wage jobs which also have to pay for my upkeep - it would take me many many years to save up that sort of money. even if i did do it it would be very hard for me to spend the money on the course because i would know that if i did i would be left with nothing and that if i failed to get into the legal profession i would never ever see that sort of money again.

I didn't get a degree, hell I barely finished school and I am doing OK, it could be better but I have got off my arse and worked for it, I haven't had any hand outs and haven't asked for them. My wife is currently retraining to become a teacher, something we are paying for because, you know...we pay our way and don't expect a hand out from the government for everything.

not getting a degree (or any other form of education or traning) was your CHOISE
why should someone else be denied the opportunity to better themselves just because you CHOOSE not to take the same opportunity.

as for you wifes teacher training
teacher training is FUNDED by the govrnment in this country even if you already have a degree

Your own wife is using taxpayer money to training to enter a new profession just because she fancies a change
i do not have a problem with this - i think she should b able to do this
but I have a major problem with the fact that your own wife is using tax payer money to better herself and at the same time you have the gaul to tell me that nothing is free and that i should have to pay my own way.

would your wife be training to become a teacher if she had to pay an amount of money which is unimaginable to you?

 

[Punishment]

Raven your stance seems to be that people can afford to pay for higher education regardless of background, thats not even remotely true.

Im sure even your homeless friend was helped by educational funding, it's there for a reason.

 

[Cadelin]

This is such a retarded thread. I don't know how its even possible but the OP managed to derail itself.

Is megaman, Dorimor?

 

[Jeros]

This is such a retarded thread. I don't know how its even possible but the OP managed to derail itself.

Is megaman, Dorimor?

Wha?

 

[Hawkwind]

Hmmm.

I choose to do a degree because i know that degrees show a high level of ability

followed by.

not getting a degree (or any other form of education or traning) was your CHOISE

I know we all make typo's but kind of opened yourself up for that one

A degree does not show a high level of ability, it does show an ability to learn. The are other avenues to get an equal education. Personally I did an apprenticeship which included day and block release to obtain a HNC and HND in Electronics Engineering and finally a Software Engineering MSc. That took a total of nearly 7 years. My parents could not afford to send me to University. I went out and did things for myself and had to work bloody hard for it. From leaving 6th Form with two decent A levels it took me a year to get a job that would allow me to do the day release whilst working. During that year I did work but was constantly looking for the right job.

<lights fuse and stands well back>

On topic I would agree that ELQ rules are stupid