Dragon Raid Possibilities

[Inca]

It seems as though dragon raiding is becoming more common and more successful, it likewise seems that the "set-up" is pretty much agreed.

3 groups, each needs aug, mend healing, pbt runey, aug shammy and then tanks to support.

4 exits so minimum of 4 peeps in group 4.

As a raid realistically a FoP and a Det font is also needed.

The problem is a lot of raids advertise for 32 people, and yet only 25 stones drop. At the minute those stones go 8 to group 1,2 and 3, and 1 of each stone to group 4.

For group 4 the classes that don't work well in groups 1-3 often have the best success, hunters, thanes, skalds possibly even bd's sm's ? as they both have insta's which they can use to pull. One idea i might suggest is using a skald in groups 1-3 who has a croc ring and red damage add? Over time the damage add element of each tanks damage, would likely mean the skald contributed more effective individual damage than any1 else. Maybe if group 4 was limited to 4 people and groups 1-3 limited to 7? this would give a raid total of 25 people, yup you got it, 1 stone each I do think that the pac healer would be the easiest sacrifice, fundamentally they cast pox, they don't use bases (auger and often mend/aug healer cover it) and aren't relied on to do much healing. Perhaps if only 2 healers were grouped say a 40 mend/36 pac and a 39 mend/37 aug? or something similar they could manage specially with shammy healing. That setup would still allow a pox, but even if 1 group was missing pac, another group healer could just pox them up and with FoP pox isn't really an issue anyway. Other than dieing i never use MCL or RP, as font keeps my power topped up anyway.

These are only ideas to prompt a discussion, please don't flame a quick browse of the forums see's i have plenty already. Really i am just trying to discuss a raid set up that all members are equal and so no1 is unhappy whatever group they get in. Would also mean hunters/thanes etc do have a position alongside any other class on a DR.

 

[Inca]

Oops forgot to add another thing is aug healers, i consider myself an aug healer with 37 in aug, gives me blue combat speed buff but often on raids we have an auger with yellow and even red combat speed, maybe we should cross groups a little more when buffing as the differences while small, over time matter.

 

[Zebolt]

I think this idea would work, no argue there. 3 less healers would do much of a difference I guess and as you say PoX isn't rly needed when FoP are up.

I think 44 aug/31 mend is the better spec for an aug healer on DRs tho, cuz' of yellow haste and red celerity, allso SH which are very nice to heal with after Dragon's AoE/PBAoE.

Im a little sceptic against only 4 ppl at the exits tho, I don't know how many times ppl have missed the 1 dog running through their exit cuz' of lack of attention or maybe just slow finger?!

So 2 ppl at each exit is to recomend imo, at least when you have new ppl everytime and don't know how they play.. ^^

 

[Sulphur]

zzz

 

[Inca]

I think this idea would work, no argue there. 3 less healers would do much of a difference I guess and as you say PoX isn't rly needed when FoP are up.

I think 44 aug/31 mend is the better spec for an aug healer on DRs tho, cuz' of yellow haste and red celerity, allso SH which are very nice to heal with after Dragon's AoE/PBAoE.

Im a little sceptic against only 4 ppl at the exits tho, I don't know how many times ppl have missed the 1 dog running through their exit cuz' of lack of attention or maybe just slow finger?!

So 2 ppl at each exit is to recomend imo, at least when you have new ppl everytime and don't know how they play.. ^^

Aye the specs were only flexible tbh, theres no way you could expect 6-9 healers of exact specs, but rough guidelines

As for the exits, 2 at each exit is an 8 man group 4, would still mean a lot of people on the raid and not everyone getting stones? Still definately food for thought

 

[Deleted member 4013]

I think this idea would work, no argue there. 3 less healers would do much of a difference I guess and as you say PoX isn't rly needed when FoP are up.

I think 44 aug/31 mend is the better spec for an aug healer on DRs tho, cuz' of yellow haste and red celerity, allso SH which are very nice to heal with after Dragon's AoE/PBAoE.

Im a little sceptic against only 4 ppl at the exits tho, I don't know how many times ppl have missed the 1 dog running through their exit cuz' of lack of attention or maybe just slow finger?!

So 2 ppl at each exit is to recomend imo, at least when you have new ppl everytime and don't know how they play.. ^^

2 ppl per entrance is recommended - but not a must. If person there at entrance isnt sleeping and has AE spell to get agro or isn't a noob then one person per entrance is sufficient.

..Tho there is of course lag monster time to time affecting to the response time of player there to get agro of retriever - this is another issue that it could be good to have 2 persons per each entrance.

P.S. I haven't let but perhaps one retriever dog past me in my history of DRs. And that was due RL stuff at that point of time.

 

[Zebolt]

As for the exits, 2 at each exit is an 8 man group 4, would still mean a lot of people on the raid and not everyone getting stones? Still definately food for thought

Well I don't think grp4 should get as many stones as grp1-3 since they are not doing even half the job. They could still get 1 stone each if they are 8 ppl.. Lotto who gets skill respec and who gets ra respec..

If grp4 gets two stones each, I would rather be in grp4 than grp1-3 which is a bit wrong imo.

 

[Zebolt]

2 ppl per entrance is recommended - but not a must. If person there at entrance isnt sleeping and has AE spell to get agro or isn't a noob then one person per entrance is sufficient.

Isn't that rly what I said but in slightly different words?

 

[Deleted member 4013]

Well I don't think grp4 should get as many stones as grp1-3 since they are not doing even half the job. They could still get 1 stone each if they are 8 ppl.. Lotto who gets skill respec and who gets ra respec..

If grp4 gets two stones each, I would rather be in grp4 than grp1-3 which is a bit wrong imo.

I like Zebolt's idea. Would defenately be far better than current grp4 stone division rules.

 

[Deleted member 4013]

Isn't that rly what I said but in slightly different words?

Yeah. We wrote at the same time same stuff. I wasn't copying what u said.

 

[Zebolt]

Yeah. We wrote at the same time same stuff. I wasn't copying what u said.

Since you quoted me I doubt we wrote it at the same time, but nm.. wasn't anything worth speaking of rly

 

[arawem]

Mmmm, maybe but u need to have good luck with this idea.

U forgot a very important point, dragon pbaoe. Sometimes she just do it insta and then half the raid is dead in a sec. Then u need to rezz every1 asap, and if u take out 3 healers u might (not sure but might) not be able to do it that fast.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Azathrim]

Well I don't think grp4 should get as many stones as grp1-3 since they are not doing even half the job.

I think Inca's idea is to make sure everyone on the raid gets 1 one of each stone.

And, those in G4 contribute just as much as G1-G3. Afterall, their job is to remove the chance for possible adds - which seems pretty important in my book.

 

[Zebolt]

I think Inca's idea is to make sure everyone on the raid gets 1 one of each stone.

And, those in G4 contribute just as much as G1-G3. Afterall, their job is to remove the chance for possible adds - which seems pretty important in my book.

I don't think standing still for an hour taking some green/yellows running towards exit is as much contributing as to kill an epic mob that AoE/PBAoE and hit for 600 dmg.. But maybe thats just me ^^

And I never said their job wasn't important..

 

[Zebolt]

Mmmm, maybe but u need to have good luck with this idea.

U forgot a very important point, dragon pbaoe. Sometimes she just do it insta and then half the raid is dead in a sec. Then u need to rezz every1 asap, and if u take out 3 healers u might (not sure but might) not be able to do it that fast.

Just my 2 cents.

Aye, thats a risk ofc. But it's usually ok if all ppl are focused and awake. But sometimes the dragon is just stupid

 

[Azathrim]

I don't think standing still for an hour taking some green/yellows running towards exit is as much contributing as to kill an epic mob that AoE/PBAoE and hit for 600 dmg.. But maybe thats just me ^^

And I never said their job wasn't important..

Its different roles, equally important.

If the pet controls doesn't do their job - chances are the raid will fail.
If the tanks don't hit the dragon, it obviously won't die.
Or what if the healers don't heal the tanks... sooner or later, the tanks won't hit the dragon and then there won't be any dead dragon.

The way Bluesky runs it, G4 is a chance for people without the correctly opted classes to participate. People thus accept that they can't bring the absolutely correct class for the job, and is happy with their smaller chance of getting a stone.

What Inca tries to do is, to open it up a bit and recognize the importance of each players participance in the raid. <shrug>

 

[Nausilus^^]

2 ppl per entrance is recommended - but not a must. If person there at entrance isnt sleeping and has AE spell to get agro or isn't a noob then one person per entrance is sufficient.

This certainly depends on a lot of things.
1: class at the exit
2: number of retrivers going for 1 exit
3: the exit guards ability to call for help if needed
4: the con of retrivers

If you have, say 1 SM guarding 1 exit, how would he do against 3 retrivers? Same with most other classes. I remember a raid of mine when Stormf was guarding 1 exit alone and he had 3 retrivers come at him. We were all lucky that he caught agro from all 3 and then called for help, because otherwise he would've died and we'd have gotten the adds in the middle.

If one would try a raid with only 1 at each exit they'd have to be certain classes. Maybe preferrebly with a buffbot for end regen if they be tanks. If they're casters (which class I don't know much about I admit) I'm not sure how they'd do if more than 1 retriver would come.

And here I'm not even taking afk'ness into consideration.. I of course count on people at raids being present from the beginning until the end!

 

[Zebolt]

Its different roles, equally important.

If the pet controls doesn't do their job - chances are the raid will fail.
If the tanks don't hit the dragon, it obviously won't die.
Or what if the healers don't heal the tanks... sooner or later, the tanks won't hit the dragon and then there won't be any dead dragon.

The way Bluesky runs it, G4 is a chance for people without the correctly opted classes to participate. People thus accept that they can't bring the absolutely correct class for the job, and is happy with their smaller chance of getting a stone.

What Inca tries to do is, to open it up a bit and recognize the importance of each players participance in the raid. <shrug>

Yes, I am fully aware of what Inca is trying to do, thats not what I was talking about.

And I've been on many dragon raids and on most of them we have got adds, so if grp4's role is as important as grp1-3 we should have failed allmost every DR. And it's not grp4 who have to face the concicvenses from when they miss a dog, it's grp1-3 who has to work even more cuz' grp4 didn't do their job.

I don't think grp4 should get equally many stones for ALOT less work..

 

[Inca]

What Inca tries to do is, to open it up a bit and recognize the importance of each players participance in the raid. <shrug>

Yes pretty much that, at the end of the day its 1 player sat at a computer. You could argue that the runey has very little to do other than some pbt, yes they can do casted bt on the agro holder but still... Also the pac healer, if he/she has low mend how active on healing are they?? To put it another way imagine doing an artifact such as atlantis or jacina's, the aug healer fundamentally solo's the mobs with the others just healing... does the auger deserve it more? Other arti's like Egg of Youth, one warrior engages the harpy the others tank inanimate pillars?

Its somewhat irrelevant how much input the role has but each role needs to be filled. If you need a role performing whether your actice time be 5 seconds or 3 hours it needs to be done and is as important as any1 else on the raid. I am not at all devalueing the work done by the runeys and others, they have a spec and a role, they perform it much like everyone else. All i am saying is that while group 4 may not have opt'ed classes for the raid their importance is there, maybe 21 of each stone to groups 1-3 and then 4 of each to group 4? thats 1 stone each assuming a full group 4? It does raise another point that some people will always turn up to group 4, while others see group 4 and ignore it... while naturally they will receive less treasure i still believe that Bluesky and others value group 4, their 1st post says so and if you don't turn up for group 4, you shouldn't get a 1-3 spot.

 

[Deleted member 4013]

This certainly depends on a lot of things.
1: class at the exit
2: number of retrivers going for 1 exit
3: the exit guards ability to call for help if needed
4: the con of retrivers

If you have, say 1 SM guarding 1 exit, how would he do against 3 retrivers? Same with most other classes. I remember a raid of mine when Stormf was guarding 1 exit alone and he had 3 retrivers come at him. We were all lucky that he caught agro from all 3 and then called for help, because otherwise he would've died and we'd have gotten the adds in the middle.

If one would try a raid with only 1 at each exit they'd have to be certain classes. Maybe preferrebly with a buffbot for end regen if they be tanks. If they're casters (which class I don't know much about I admit) I'm not sure how they'd do if more than 1 retriver would come.

And here I'm not even taking afk'ness into consideration.. I of course count on people at raids being present from the beginning until the end!

M8y with all due respect, I during my history of my DRs - haven't seen more than max 2 retrievers coming from an entrance.. must be a slight change that 3 would come.

If that is the case -and person who is there guarding in the entrance - and isnt a thane.. then its impossible ofc to get agro to all doggies.

 

[Nausilus^^]

Yes pretty much that, at the end of the day its 1 player sat at a computer. You could argue that the runey has very little to do other than some pbt, yes they can do casted bt on the agro holder but still... Also the pac healer, if he/she has low mend how active on healing are they??

A runemaster casting casted bt is very efficient and takes a BIG effort. He needs to know which tank has the agro and that can be hard when tanks don't call agro. Still impressed with the bt work done by Bergast a few DR's ago. There's automatic pbt and then there's selfcast pbt! Combine the 2 and you have an invincible tank!
Regarding the aug healer.. what if the mend healer is taking a whack? And as far as I could read, you didn't mention any pac healers in your optional groupsetup from the 1st thread.. then there's only the shammy left for heals, but he's only got a max of 26mend cause he's minimum 47 aug specced. Also he might not have any prot, only if there's no pac healer in the groupsetup.

IF mend healer is being petted by the dragon then you'll only have 1 backup healing class who is also supposed to be redoing damage add, end regen and specs whenever someone dies. Then I'd take an augers heal any day!

Its somewhat irrelevant how much input the role has but each role needs to be filled.

But isn't what you're doing, actually comparing and questioning the relevance of group1-3 classes compared to group4?

 

[Nausilus^^]

M8y with all due respect, I during my history of my DRs - haven't seen more than max 2 retrievers coming from an entrance.. must be a slight change that 3 would come.

If that is the case -and person who is there guarding in the entrance - and isnt a thane.. then its impossible ofc to get agro to all doggies.

Either thane or skald yes I agree. And yes the 3 dogs DID come to 1 exit with only 1 guarding it, so it CAN happen.

When I've been making dragonraids I try to get as many in group4 as possible, because I know that sometimes they do get away and I want the risk of that to be as small as possible.

 

[Deleted member 4013]

Here is a wild idea - DR would consist of the groups Inca here posted AND there would be certain set of rez'ers separeted from groups outside of the lair? Who(se) job would be charge to the lair as a last resort to ress the healer(s) there?

Just a thought.

 

[Inca]

@Nausilas i feel you missed my point. I never said runeys were lazy, they do a job like everyone else, i was merely saying that while a group 4 members "active" time is less perhaps than a group 1-3 member, they still have to be alert and watching, and as such if they are needed on the raid perhaps a little more emphasis in loot division? Like i said these were only ideas.

With regards to healers i am talking about 2 healers at least with spreadheal 1, so without relics likely a greater heal of around 500 points each plus a shammy, think emendation on a 26 mend shammy wud be 300, maybe 250 on an rvr specced shammy. That to me is enough healing, or its certainly an option, again i did only bring this up for discussion and really was tryin to look at way sof maybe cutting 1-3 numbers so more loot could go to group 4. Also remember this is not me being selfish, most of my chracters are g1-3 spec, in theory the easier ride 1-3 have the happier i am, specially if we get a better share of treasure.

 

[Bagloor]

I don't think grp4 should get equally many stones for ALOT less work..

But there are some classes in grp1-3 that have less to do under the raid than other classes too, so maybe some classes should get 3 stones and some just 1 stone? Becouse they do less work under the raid?

Imo it's not about how many times you have to push your buttons, it's about if you are needed or not. And if you run an opted raid why bring ppl you don't really need?

 

[Zebolt]

But there are some classes in grp1-3 that have less to do under the raid than other classes too, so maybe some classes should get 3 stones and some just 1 stone? Becouse they do less work under the raid?

Imo it's not about how many times you have to push your buttons, it's about if you are needed or not. And if you run an opted raid why bring ppl you don't really need?

Well ok, if I would do a DR I wouldn't bring a grp4 then, cuz' no it's not needed. I've been on several DR's without a grp4 and they have been successfull, and maybe if grp4 did what is their only task, maybe they would deserve more stones, but as I said earlier, most raids I've been on we have gotten adds ^^

 

[Zebolt]

To put it another way imagine doing an artifact such as atlantis or jacina's, the aug healer fundamentally solo's the mobs with the others just healing... does the auger deserve it more? Other arti's like Egg of Youth, one warrior engages the harpy the others tank inanimate pillars?

How is that even close to grp4?! There have been several DR's without grp4 that were successfull so grp4 isn't needed, but it's a bonus and helps alot. Try doing Jacinas Sash without anyone healing the aug healer and see how it goes.. opps, Cyrek is still at 99% and Im dead ^^

 

[Zebolt]

Here is a wild idea - DR would consist of the groups Inca here posted AND there would be certain set of rez'ers separeted from groups outside of the lair? Who(se) job would be charge to the lair as a last resort to ress the healer(s) there?

Just a thought.

But then the ressers would like stones aswell so then the whole idea breaks anyway

 

[Zebolt]

If that is the case -and person who is there guarding in the entrance - and isnt a thane.. then its impossible ofc to get agro to all doggies.

How is that impossible exactly? Take a rm for instance.. He uses his insta on 1 dog while nuking the 2nd and the 3rd.. hardly impossible ^^

 

[Puppet]

7 animists and a FoP-druid and it dies in 4 mins meights xDDD

If played well nobody dies even and adds are not a problem coz they insta die

Then walk off with all 2-3 skill + 2-3 RA stones and a handful drops and r0x0r the boxor.