Do you need Quickness?

[old.Hendrick]

I'm a bit confused about the issue and would like to see some clearing up before I sit down to plan my final spellcrafted outfit. The only thing I am relatively sure of is that quickness makes you attack faster - which must be a good thing? I've also heard that it decreases your damage output in a way, which would be a bad thing. So, all in all, someone who loves the statistical part of the game, please explain to me what Quickness does and whether it's good for a slashing mercenary to have loads of it.

Thanks.

 

[the_smurflord]

Let's put it this way, once I recieve the quickness buff from a high-level cleric, I can barely finish my attack animation before I'm attacking again, with no drop in damage.

 

[old.willowywicca]

I love statistics, so here goes!! <deep breath>

Higher Qui increases your evade rate!
Higher Qui increases your attack speed!
Higher Qui affects your *styled* damage, the higher your qui, the lower you styled damage is. an example (figures used are for illustrative purposes only and are not accurate with respect to actual bonuses one receives from so much qui):

with 100 qui your unstyled dmg cap is 300, your styled damage cap is 500, and you swing every 4 seconds.

then, with 150 qui your unstyled dmg cap is 300, your styled damage cap is 450, and you swing every 3.5 seonds.

Thus, once you are ooe, higher qui is fantastic and infinitely better than no qui. However whilst you have end it is a bit harder to say, the reduction in styled damage and the increase in attacking speed mean that over time, your styled damage (assuming you have infinite end) is approximately the same, but in rvr frontloaded damage (ie your first hit) is important, since there is no delay before it, and thus in a short duration fight having LOWER qui will mean you do much more damage (as I said if the fight went on your dmg would even out to be approx same as with high qui).

So basically it really comes down to this imo, how often do you run out of end? if this happens to you a lot (I know it does to me) then you want to max qui, if you almost never run out of end, then you probably are better off with no qui at all. *exception to this beign if you want to cap your evade rate..


[EDIT: as a side note, haste buffs function the same as higher qui does, the only difference being it does not increase chance to evade]

 

[old.mattshanes]

Yes hendrick you do a lot,very important i evade more with it and as visit says you attack very quick and damage is the same.

 

[old.willowywicca]

Originally posted by the_smurflord
Let's put it this way, once I recieve the quickness buff from a high-level cleric, I can barely finish my attack animation before I'm attacking again, with no drop in damage.

your damage was reduced slightly by the qui , but since all qui buffs are dex/qui buffs, the added dex increased your dmg so that overall there is not a noticeable change to damage per hit..

 

[trigali]

I fully agree with Smurflord here (unlike on some other thread ).

Quickness really rocks.

I think your confusion comes from weapons. There, you tend to trade increased quickness for lower damage output (the harder the weapon hits, the slower it is, and vice versa).

Any buffs/Realm Ability which will increase your quickness, however, will tend to balance this, and is a good thing.

 

[old.mattshanes]

I increased my quick by 32 my dmg cap gone down by 3.... you decide

 

[<Wels>]

If I go ooe no quick in the world will help, block, block, parry, parry, block, block, you get the point

 

[old.Atrox]

Originally posted by old.willowywicca
[EDIT: as a side note, haste buffs function the same as higher qui does, the only difference being it does not increase chance to evade]

afaik "real" haste buffs do not affect dmg/swing Ghetto Haste ( ei. Theurg ) do lower the dmg/swing.

 

[old.willowywicca]

Originally posted by old.Atrox


afaik "real" haste buffs do not affect dmg/swing Ghetto Haste ( ei. Theurg ) do lower the dmg/swing.

not quite sure what you mean by this, I know that conc based haste buffs works like higher qui.. I don't have access to any short duration haste buffs to test out if they work different..

 

[Sharma]

with my dex/qui buff i rwach 211 dex, with a 4.5 speed weapon my avg attack speed is pretty quick.

 

[old.mattshanes]

Yes it DOES increase the chance to evade.

 

[old.Trine Aquavit]

As I understand it haste increased the speed of the weapon (reduces the delay) but keeps the base damage the same, so the base dps increases. The style dps, however, stays the same - the style damage is reduced, as is the endurance (lower delay = lower endurance). You might get reduced style damage, but you might also get one more style off (before you run ooe or you die).

The overall effect of haste, though, is beneficial. There is an increase to base dps, and the lower damage from the style part is offset with lower endurance per style. It also helps with pbt.

To be honest, the benefit of haste is very visible. My current spec gives me a 15% Haste Buff and a 31% Celerity. Stand in a crowd of melee and hit celerity and you get an audible gear change - and a visible increase in the rate of damage. Celerity is uber against tough/uber mobs.

Here's an example posted on the VN Seer boards:

Troll with 30 quickness Swings 2h Hammer

Base weapon damage is 10 Dps with 5 Delay = 50 + (Style bonus *Actual delay delay)(20 * 5) 100 = 150 damage


Lets Take a valkyn swinging the same weapon and caped quickness and a haste buff on!

10 Dps with 5 delay = 50 + (style bonus * Actual Delay ) (20 * 2.5) 50 = 100

Look MA I hit HARDER if I have no quickness!

But son look what mama is showing you!

hit for 100 in 2.5 secconds or hit for 150 in 5 sec which is

400 damage in 10 secconds VS 300 damage in 10 secconds

MORE Quickness = MORE damage
The people who say otherwise are the same people who say "MOM im REALLY hungry can you cut the pizza slices smaller so I have more to eat.

Next time a friar hits you tell him he is going to loose because he is using haste buff.

---

I think the last comment is telling.

 

[old.Hendrick]

I think your confusion comes from weapons. There, you tend to trade increased quickness for lower damage output (the harder the weapon hits, the slower it is, and vice versa).

No, <points to sig> I'm perfectly aware about weapon speed etc I was just wondering about the quickness stat and what it does. I'll max it now, need more evade and faster attacking. Cheers.

 

[Azal]

http://vnboards.ign.com/message.asp?topic=44327737&replies=13

some info there..some whining too, its vn

 

[zapzap]

More Qui the better and dont forget damage add when grouped with dark RM and skald.

 

[infozwerg]

qui and haste buffs increase dam output on unstyled attacks.

qui and haste do not increase the dam output on dam adds, thus they lower the dam done per hit with dam adds.

qui and haste do not increase the styled dam, thus they lower the style bonus done per hit and as a result they lower the dam you can do with endurance as a whole. repeat that after me, your endurance is worth less dam now.

so do you want qui? well it depends.

if you got all MP spellcrafted gear and the funds to do high overcharging, got top notch jewelry, got high or medium evade (evade iii or more) and you can depend on having endurance regeneration, then yes.

if you have to use 99% armor, use mediocre jewelry, no or low evade and have to fight without end regen, then probably no.

characters like troll zerkers, spear and large weapon users and polearms are examples of classes that might choose to not cap their qui. they kill their targets in one or two hits and thus dont profit much from higher attack speed and they got LOADS of other things they want to do with their gear, especially 2h wielders who have 28 (or 32 for mp weapon) imbue points less than dualwielders or shield users.


regards,
Estat

on a sidenote, what xorta said is complete bullshit.

 

[hint]

look at it like this.

more quickness = faster hits.

faster hits = more hits getting through before that damn bubble comes back up

 

[old.Atrox]

Originally posted by infozwerg
on a sidenote, what xorta said is complete bullshit.

Oh ok, so thats the case for Friars aswell ? cuz it's from them I've been told that their Haste buff only change the speed not the dmg/swing (or that they cant see anydiffrence in the dmg).
I've never seen any tests, so I dont know if what you said are bullshit or not, but I do belive those who play the class rather then some Fotm player.

 

[Milkshake]

Personally I'm using my shield/1h to cap Qui.

This means, I slam, swap to 2h and lose about 50-60 Qui.

Havoc - Tyr's.

If they are still alive (casters and infs will most likely not be) I'll swap back to 1h and Shield, thus getting all my qui back and helping me block.

It might help, it might not. Willing to give it a go tho.

 

[Solid]

Classes who do 70% or more styled damage or use 2H exclusively and have less than evade 3 shouldnt bother with Qui imo as they are classically known as "frontloaders" aka Zerks, LW/CS Hero, LW Champ, Polearmsman...

All Sword/Shield users should boost their quickness but try and limit it to their 1H Weapon/Shield imbue so they can still frontload using a 2H. What Milkshake has done is very clever so he keeps a huge 2H frontload but maintains high Qui for his 1H/Shield setup.

+Qui whilst scaling down Styled damage does not equally scale down your end cost so as infozwerg so eloquently put it, your end is worth less now. (aka you will empty your end bar faster).

At the end of the day however its a personal choice on Qui it has both benefits and drawbacks and with Spellctrafting, AF102 armour, RA's and the like, RvR fights inherently will last longer so going full frontload is not as effective as it once was.

 

[Generic Poster]

I was checking out this site for my ranger, when I came across some info on WeaponSpeed... might help:
http://kaber.bladekeep.com/melee.htm

 

[old.Mitsu]

Qui is good.

 

[old.Atrox]

Infozerg I got some info about it.

the base damage (the one you get from a nonstyle swing) stays the same. but all damage added from styles are purly added on a Damage per second basis, wich mean the total damage per swing becomes a little lower while useing haste, but your'e total damage over time becomes MUCH higher. At least with the lvl 38 and 47 haste shouts, but noticably so even with lower lvl hastes.

so the conclution is that the lvl 47 (38%) haste don't give you the full 63% damage increase it whould if the swings stayed the same, but rather a 46% damage over time increase. (don't have the exact number on me so they might be off by a few %). or to give you a concreet example from my own set up. unhasted I cap my swings with my 5.0 staff (swinging at 3.75 due to my buffed quickness) at 500 even useing Boon, hasted with my lvl 47 haste I swing at 2.3 sec but my cap is lowerd to 450'ish, but I'll deal a hell of alot more overall damage while the haste lasts. But if I were to swing unstyles I whould cap at 378 (if memory servs correctly) both unhasted and hasted.

Hope this might clear up any confusion.
(just a note since I've been absent form the game for around 2 months now the exact number might be slightly off but should be close enough to make the point.

so I guess I were wrong.

 

[Milkshake]

So haste is a Qui buff then?

Because if it's not, how are we sure that these are the same?

 

[old.Trine Aquavit]

Haste isn't a QUI buff.

QUI has two effects:

1. Haste
2. Bonus to evade

So, anything that applies to haste also applies to +QUI.

QUI buffs raise +QUI and so increase both effects
Haste buffs just increase haste

 

[Goryk]

I alwasy thought your DPS stayed the same no matter what qui you had. An increase in quickness produced a higher rate of attack, and to keep the damage constant, a lower per hit damage. The only useful thing having low quickness for, is frontloading your damage. Whatever the affect I'm sure it's not that much of a difference, and increased chance to evade/bladeturn negation seems a lot more important than a handful of extra hp in damage per attack. Saying this, my minstrel template has 0 quickness on, although thats due to the fact I'm supposed to max 5 stats, hp, and 3 skills somehow, and frontloading is kinda useful in combination with 2 sets of shouts if I pop out of stealth with a mezz, and my stun and pet helps vs bladeturn

 

[Solid]

Goryk matey its been mentionmed 3-4 times in this thread by diff posters

neitehr +Qui nor any Haste buff (ghetto or celerity) effects your base damage. Regardless of how much +Qui/Haste you have your base damage (ie unstyled damage) will remain constant.

ONLY styled damage is reduced by +Qui and Haste, however its not reduced negatively, its scaled down in a linear proportion

ie +Qui that grants a 20% faster swing speed will also grant a 20% decrease in Style damage so the overall Styled damage over time is constant.

If say you were hitting for 90 base damage with +0 Qui then you were buffed by a +75 Dex/Qui buff and also capped your +Qui to +75 (eg +150 Qui which is roughly 15% haste) you would still swing for 90 damage but you would swing 15% faster and therefore get a 15% base damage increase over time

Warriors are currently THE class in current US patch to enjoy the biggest rewards from +Qui. They are the class with the highest Base Damage (aka unstyled) in the game and as such get the biggest benefit from swinging faster.

 

[Lochlyessa]

Which is why +qui and haste rocks for unstyled people \o/

 

[SoulFly Amarok]

Qui affects styled damage, haste buff doesnt :E