Das List-Rant Deluxe

[Gimpfarfar]

Alright then, the gimp is at it again.

I'm sure there's been many similar rants like this over the time, but I think it is time for me to share my opinion on these evil creations of young, wannabe-fascists.

For you who don't know about these lists (appearing mostly in Malmöhus Lair), I bring you an explanation:
When the Malmöhus-groups gets filled up, and people still want to join, lists are formed to ensure these players a spot in the group when someone in the group leaves. Sounds pretty good, right? Well, so did Hitlers party-programme to the Germans in the late 1930's.

The lists would be better if they actually worked. Now, Healers and runies (and sometimes High-level tanks) gets pushed ahead in line. Naturally, because the groups need them, and can't go on without them. Which is pretty reasonable.
But then again, if the list gets skipped, there's no point having one, is there ?

I bring you, 2 scenarios that might improve the situation:

Scenario 1) Remove lists completely, as well as the egoism and the attitude about not wanting to share. Why not xp with 3 or 4 Full groups? Bad xp, you say. Pull more, I say. There's plenty in the nearby woods to go around. Maybe not let anyone leech, but if waiting people could group up and help with the killing, I don't see a reason why they shouldnt.

Scenario 2) The more conservative scenario. Keep the list, but make the rules around the lists a bit touger. IE, don't let anyone in on the lists that aren't in Malmöhus...ensure that the top guys in the list are actually waiting on the wall, not running around in Emain waiting for their final call.
Maybe even create seperate lists for healers, runies, tanks and the rest (rogues, SMs, zerkers etc... ).

That's my 2 pennies worth. Now I'm gonna log in to see if I've moved on the list, after being nr 4 for 5 hours straight.

GL and HF. It's only a game, why not let everyone play along?

 

[old.Ebeneezer]

Yes I agree, though I'm not sure I'd use the fascist analogy. There's a big difference between DAOC and Nazis, the Holocaust etc.

But you're right that lists are shitty and bring out the worst in people. Maybe the US style lair pulls are the answer.

Another thing that has to stop in the lair...greedy bastards. I remember heading to 50 and several times seeing the highest levels getting all the drops, even though I had green/grey items. They would say things like "you'll get your turn soon when you're the highest". BS! Of course highest levels should get first choice, but they should share out items for the good of the realm. I know I do. Biggest offenders are two people I never see in the game anymore which kinda makes it more annoying, Names witheld unless you wanna see them

 

[akula]

the seperate list idea has been used a few times in H,

a huntress from Black Company (Zbloni) was doing it, and managing it well, some of the group were trying to pressure into getting guild mates in first. which imo sucks.

Fair enough if you log there while waiting, and leave an alt name to be contacted on. but if ya ain't in malmo, ya shouldn't be on the list, unless ya in gna and on way in

 

[Killgorde]

Hmm....taking this thing right back to the very beginning, and leaving fascism out of it...

The infamous "list" was started by Attle and myself a very long time ago. Why? Because we had a good crew working down in Malmo and were being constantly pm spammed by peeps wanting to join, and a lot of them giving the third degree when they couldn't get in. I would like to think both myself and Attle did a good fair job without bias (although a runie/twin healer combo in the tank group always got priority for obvious reasons). I have since heard so much grief and upset caused by the ongoing use of this system I heartily regret and am deeply remorseful we ever created it in the first place, judging by the monster it has turned into in the wrong hands.

However, by the same token...

I question the sanity and initiative of the multitude that are prepared to log out on the hill for 6 hours or more waiting for the call to take their place on the road to the Holy Grail, rather than grouping together with others logged out there and getting on with exping. Why don't they bother? Quite simple really...that word initiative - or lack of it. Coupled with the unwillingness to put the effort into forming a group themselves but rather letting someone else do the graft and take the stress. And before anyone says "but we havent got a healer" or "we havent got fend," do a /who healer 40 45 and just see how many are dotted around Midgard who would jump at the chance of joining you in El Dorado but are unprepared to sit on a list waiting for a call. You may be pleasantly surprised...but then I guess the real surprise would be finding anyone who was prepared to take the time,effort, persistance etc to make this happen.

A swift comparison can be made with Emain. How many peeps are prepared to put the effort into creating a cg in the best interests of all present including themselves? The other day I ported in and asked if there was a cg going..to which someone quipped "Nah mate...we were waiting for you." Why? You tell me. You would think after being zerged enough times peeps would learn that the best way to counter it would be fast transfer of intelligence between groups. Maybe Middies just fancy the pants off Gwulla a bit too much?

On Drops: Drops are divisive/lead to mistakes/cause unnecessary death and xp loss. Anyone care to dispute this? How many times have you been in a group where peeps are arguing the toss about some wonderful bit of tat while you are trying to stop 4 Execs giving you a good kicking? Simple rule (and those who grouped with me know how pissed off I used to get when the above happened) is discuss whatever drops you have to disperse however you see fit while you are all sitting on your backsides during DT...

The above is not intended to be inflammatory - and if by reading it one of you pauses to think about how things could be if peeps showed a little more initiative and effort I will be quite satisfied.


/salutes

 

[Xandax]

It is not the list as such that is the problem in Malmo.
It is the way so many people seems to get a mindbleeding when they enter malmo.
All they think of is exp exp drops drops and sometimes drops.

People will discuss drops while the rest of the group is getting wacked by exec.s or complain that the exp is to low or whatever.

 

[Draupnir]

Well i just felt like giving you some pre-list history

When we started doing lair (me,teza,sun.mirgo,elexis etc) we used a rotating schedule if we were more the 1 FG (yes, we chainpulled execs with 1fg)

If we were 10 ppl we divided if in 30 min parts, ever 4 h you got a 1 h break... Reduced afk too


/// Draupnir

 

[BlueJam]

Not really a very long time ago killg, was only a few months

 

[Subbiz]

Here is how u kill the list... u pick up a main mezzer, and 1-2 backup healer/mezzers, make 2 groups with 6-7 in each, get a pulse in each, or atleast in main, and then pick up ur tanks who is sitting around on the hills and waiting for a spot in the group they are listed for.. If you manage to talk your self in to getting the healers/pbt rms u need, it should not be that hard to pick up the rest..

and add a rogue or 2 when the group is up and running

 

[Cowled]

Page down, Page down, Page down, Page down, Page down, Page down, Page down, Page down, Page down, Page down, Post new reply...

Ok, listen up.
If im leader, i get what classes i need.

If the list is:
Theurgist lvl 17
Theurgist lvl 48
Gimpadin lvl 45
Armsman lvl 49

The theurgist lvl 48 will enter first, if faster pbt, and armsman will enter before gimpadin, since i need him most.

If the list is:

Infiltrator lvl 49
Gimpadin lvl 45
Armsman lvl 46

And i already got a maintank, or 2.. then i'll invite inf.

List is to be followed, but i pick what i need.

 

[Killgorde]

Originally posted by BlueJam
Not really a very long time ago killg, was only a few months

Seems like a decade ago

Main point is though....whatever peeps suggest here (and there's loads of ways of skinning this cat) its up to the peeps at the lair to use their own initiative rather than sitting on a hill for God knows how long.

 

[Vrek]

Replying today, creating a message from memories that seem a decade ago indeed.

The things written above by Killgorde are all too recognisable. I too was visiting the lair, passing "H" since there was noone around at noon (CET). Only too find two groups fighting a single spawn of execs. when i got there.
First time i got there i thought there was like a gladiator game going on. With people performing their fighting/mezzing/healing skills to an anxious crowd of 10-20 people sitting balcony-loge at the lair just watching the show.

As a level 42 Skald with the guts to go to the lair solo, i just blended in, giving in to some primal herd-feeling i don't really like about myself.
After 3-4 minutes of utter patience (sorry but patience just aint my virtue when it comes to having fun at a PC-game) i started trying to get a conversation going on. As ever, i was mumbling into myself again, and the only thing that did react was miss Gjapinulva herself. She peeked outside her lair, just too find out what utter and ignorant fool dared to break the silence in.... "the waiting game".

"what do u mean: you're waiting for a spot?" was my reaction to there obvious answer to my rather blunt question of what people were doing around here? (still with me?) I was informed of "the List". Being an entrepeneur in real life, having my own company (tho small) i like to get things done and dealt with. So i undertook the mission: "Leisure Suit Vrek in the Land of the Lazy Lair Loungers."

Anyone reasonably sane and with any XP (experience) and FS (frustration) knows what happend to my mission: FAILURE!
With reasons varying from: "eh.... sorry mate, can't join u, i think there will be a spot open in a few minutes." to "u want to start a group? ur only level 42, and minimum level for lair is 43 or even 44, so i think u'll better go to spindel instead or try to see if there's a spot left in the H-group."
I tried and i tried and i tried, for two weeks i was forensing between H and Lair to get a job as chief group gatherer, and succeeding only once. Only to come to my personal conclusion that the Lair is highly overrated and that with levels and location, arrogance and self-indulgence rises more than proportional. (with exceptions proving the rule)

After that the game lost its magic to me really. Later on I did have some fun at Spindelhalla starting amazing groups, literally wiping away anything we ran into. Too bad i cant remember the names of the dudes involved. I only know it was a Healer/ Zerker Combo from Black Company and of course sugar Sweetheart and lovely Lumikki, my (selfproclaimed (who didn't )) DAOC girlfriend.
My main game was played in Uppland at levels 20-35. That was fun and great. No loot-issues, the occasional invader, all the lowbies around to help out xping and all on a three minute walk from the telekeep. Bartender: One Uppland on the Rocks for the house!

Greetings to all, and maybe one day i'll give - Excaliber Now: Redux - a try.

 

[bjarnulf]

Well today I started a group of my own with ppl waiting to get on the list. Then I started a CG for all that were there. The funny part was that when I invited the group who had the list to the CG they said: WTF. Why are u making a CG. I replied: So we can pull togather!? And they say NOO. Ok. Me and my group decided to pull from the side and we did it really well, while the first group only died and died. They came to our group then wanting to join. Hehe, very funny.

ANYHOW...(<--- just background story),

....the list. When I have the "list" I sign up ppl on it and I make no exeption in it. If u ask first, u get in first. If u are there and u wanna lvl alt; sure. So be it. Just gimmi name and I'll msg. Not a big deal. I don't make ppl skip in line cus that is not the way I want to be treated.
And it was working really well. And when there were too many waiting, we started a new group to help killing. Altho ppl tend not to want to be in group 2. Dunno why really. The xp i slightly less, but who cares really. I didn't die once today and the same goes for the ppl in the groups. (Some did die tho). So.... the list does work if u do it right.

Sorry about my many ANDs (Too tired now and I don't know if it made any sence) Good night.

 

[Roo Stercogburn]

I stopped going to Lair/Yar. I'd never totally camped the area, I treated it like any other location in game: somewhere to go to for variety. A hunt was being organised and it was looking pretty good. We said No list, everyone who comes gets a group and we bash the beasties, the idea being that as enough peeps logged on, we'd end up with enough for some mass carnage and fun at the lair.

Oh dear.

The higher levels bullied the lower levels, the list came back. It was very obviously the greedy ones that wanted this. The lower levels went along with it because they still saw it as the best xp they were going to get, though ironically, some of these were destined to end up on the list after being involved in setting up the hunt in the first place. I was in Group 1. I suicided on the way in when it became clear what was happening. I think my exact words (and not exactly in best roleplaying tradition) were "I don't need xp enough to piss on other people to get it", and I found a friendly drakulv to help me get back to Galplen quickly. I set up a multi-group hunt to Raum almost immediately and off we went.

However, the dreaded 'list' can be used properly, it is after all, just a way of managing hunts where you have more people than free spaces. The problem is the mentality and desperation to get xp fast that seems to set in with people and brings out the worst in many.

Sidenote: I don't think drops should always go to the highest levels in groups, that's just rationalising greed. Share by need, agreement, lotto or rolling dice, whatever works for the team, not by some contrived mechanism that means the people that have played longer automatically get everything.

 

[Cowled]

Originally posted by bjarnulf
....the list. When I have the "list" I sign up ppl on it and I make no exeption in it. If u ask first, u get in first. If u are there and u wanna lvl alt; sure. So be it. Just gimmi name and I'll msg. Not a big deal. I don't make ppl skip in line cus that is not the way I want to be treated.

U are willing to have 6 hunters, 2 SB, but no healer, and tanks in ur grp? Oo

 

[katt!]

this thread really sounds like the "6 people or less in a tangler group" in the albion forum

 

[old.Krusha]

Originally posted by old.Ebeneezer
But you're right that lists are shitty and bring out the worst in people. Maybe the US style lair pulls are the answer.

Yay . its fun and all gets xp all the time .. you who say you get lousy xp.. count the times you get that "losuy" xp per minute .. and then compare it to 10 hrs on the bench (hill if you have no clue to whats going on )

And yes you get slightly more xp if you have a runie/thane (oooh the thane is wanted ) but to that i say... get a thane or a runie or go sit on the hill....

I tried to introduce that kind of pulling, we did it once, but then noone wanted to do them anymore .. but if MLF can do it 24/7 and ppl were dinging 50 allover the place (and all other kind of lvls) back when i first saw it.. then why cant we do it? nooooo its not "optimum" xp .. sheeeesh the xp aint THAT good once the camp goes out... and especially when you wait XX hrs and get into a grp that disbands after 30 mins.

but somehow ppl fail to see the point of "US" pulls, or not going to rauma or wherever...

i tried to take initiative and give an alternative (that worked imho) but got battered for two reasons ...
(1) ppl cant count
(2) they thought they got a lesser chance of getting drops (and who cares now when epic/df is in play?)

anyway will be awhile before i have to xpgrind my alts through 40+ on Mid/exc

 

[Tomwyr]

I'd be interested in us style pulling, have a 3x thane too (and a shammie that can't heal but got ae poison / root =o)
As 46 hunter i was at lair *twice*, since the second time i have alts on albion / avalon and hib / brocéliade.....
Eventually i came back to excalibur (well wasnt away that long..) but i didnt set foot back into malmohus yet, it's just, well, somehow it seems malmo brings out the worst in ppl, and it takes aways the fun side of the game.
And never ever would i even get the idea to sit for hours on a hill doing nothing =o, imho i'd xp faster killing greens (which gives me plenty of time to chat and enjoy myself )

 

[Slipurson]

did not read all the post fully but in read most of them...

as for the list it is good if it moves and when it gets to 15 peeps for g2 and 8-9 peeps for G1 some listholders or ppl on the hill takes the peeps they need from g1 and g2 list and for new groups but the hard part is to get the healers/shamans there are not many lvl50's that want to stand at lair Xping (can't blame them) and the range of lvl 46-49 (to actually have a good chance to mezz) are very limited, pbt runie are not very hard to find and tanks are real easy to get hold of... so the prob is in finding the healers... and if the group going on at lair have a "highlvl" healer on list they syre would not like to give him/her away since if one healer leaves they will need a new one to go on..

So what i mean is that often attemepts at making "new" groups of the "old" lists are made but they fail when there are only 2-3 healers online and 2 of them (myabe even 2) is at lair already XPing =(

As for the loot part what i have experienced tha last days i XPed at lair is that some start talkingabout loots but mostly it stops at the "stats plz"-part and loots are distributed at DT, only prob there is that 70% go afk for 6-7 mins at DT and when they are back all run down to start the ever ongoing "pull pull pull... NEXT... oooh the XP is soo bad in G2... G1 get much worse XP... and we need skald ... we need healer... and so on" and totaly forgets about the loots ans if the one who want the loot asks for it 10 ppl say "Loots at DT..."

PS. By healer i also mean shamans (work real great at lair also)

Well thats what i have time to say.... have to work now... see u all

 

[-chancer-]

i once waited for 9.5 hours for a lair group @ L45 thane

oh joy ive got it all again with my hunter

 

[old.Rusfighter]

My friend w8ed 4 11.5 hours (48 SB Necrofeel)