Cross-Realm Spying...

[Breni]

Having just got my response back from RightNow, I thought I'd post it here for all to see, being as I doubt it will actually get into the FAQ, as such.

Enjoy!

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Subject
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Cross-teaming


Discussion Thread
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Response (CS) - 06/18/2002 02:24 PM
Greetings,

Anything that hinder the other players experience is forbidden.
Spying is considered forbidden. Any account created for the sole purpose to spy will be banned along with the "main account" of the spy.

Sincerely yours,
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European Dark Age of Camelot Customer Support

Customer (name deleted) - 06/12/2002 03:35 PM
Is owning more than one account for the purpose of spying on different realms on the same server legal?

For instance, could person A have a character in Midgard on Prydwen, then buy a second account and create a character in Albion on Prydwen, for the sole purpose of obtaining information on when raids are going to be launched against Midgard?

Mythic have changed their CoC to reflect that this is, in fact, illegal. I ask because there are a lot of reports of this kind of behaviour on Prydwen, and some on Excalibur, too.

Look forward to getting a response soon!

 

[Thorarin]

Nice to know their policy, but this doesn't tell us anything about enforcement. First of all, there's the problem of even finding out someone is spying. IP address, credit card data, etc., it's all circumstantual information. Even if they'd actively try to hunt spies down, people can always deny, unless there are in-game chatlogs that prove it. I doubt they will take the time to even try to find them theirselves.

As for reporting a spy... I've reported offensive names in violation of their CoC, and even something simple as that is not always handled (though about 75% of them got their name changed). I hope they take this spying thing seriously, because it's really annoying.

 

[old.Biohazard]

How do you check if someone is spying or just playing on both realms. GOA allows playing on different realms on one server but not the spying, I'm interested in how they would like to check if people actually spy or not.

 

[Aeiedil]

IP is not a good measure imo, nor credit card. my brother and i both play at the same time from the same phoneline with the same credit card, although most the time we are both hib\exc.

 

[Dewey]

The only way I can see that you could get someone banned for this is if you get chat logs/screenshots of them admitting spying, any other evidence such as playing on 2 realms on one server can just be denied, we do only have 2 english server and I'm am willing to bet some people do have 2 accounts so they can have characters on all 3 realms.

 

[Ardwan]

Lets handle spies like they handle witches back then...all ya need to do is accuse someone with enough 'evidence' and let the BBQ commence

Seriously though, if someone wants to spy there is no-way you can stop them., hell if anyone wanted to bad enough, they could just hack some guild Private forums,..

 

[thorungla]

Just to add my point of view on this topic - I do own a second account.

My primary character is on mid/pryd, but I also have characters on alb/pryd and hib/excals.

I play the other realms primarily as a 'rest period', it is fun exploring new lands and different classes, and these breaks from the sometime dreary repetition of xping usually restores my interest in the game as a whole. None of my alb/hib characters are of high enough level to be invovled in any rvr and are not even guild members, so I cant even imagine becoming aware of any planned raids.

Even if I was to hear of something I am 99% sure I could resist the urge to spread the news back in Midgard, as I am utterly discusted at the clear sabotage I have seen now on at least 3 relic raids.

I do have to say however, I have noticed I tend to play now on alb/pryd more than hib/excal. For 2 reasons and one of which might be considered cheating by the more 'strict' amongst us (and of course views on this are welcome - and I might reconsider my second account if convinced to)

The reasons are;

1. I have enjoyed the characters I play and the people I have met more than those in hib/excal, and

2. If whilst playing on alb/pryd I see a lot of keeps being taken by the albs, I must say I will more often than not, relog back onto mid/pryd to check if I am needed.

Obviously the latter is the only aspect of my use of 2 acccounts that might be construed as 'cheating' but does not directly affect anyones gaming experience.

The reason I wanted to state my opinion here is that I had heard that Mythic had recently changed their CoC to state that 2 accounts on the same server but different realms is not permitted. Obviously there are problems with ppl abusing the community, exploiting bugs, cross realming to sabotage/spy. However not everyone does, and assuming everyone is guilty and removing the opportunity for ppl like myself to play where, with who I like after I have been permitted to do so and pay for the privilidge would not be acceptable.

Anyway, there ya go, comment, flame, do as you will.

 

[Aileanara]

Just seen this thread & thought id repost 1 of my ideas from another thread, which was about new things mythic could add in future expansions.

>>>
Another Idea:
how about spies who can travel to the other realms!
but they can only attack if they are first attacked (self defense button skill button?) to stop the higher lvls coming in to the realms & killing the other realms newbies. They could only communicate with thier home realm if they actually get back to the RVR zones. stealth skill a must, also maybe some sort of bluff/glean information skill which they could perhaps use on NPC's to get info on player movements (who have passed that NPC). A disguise kit would be handy (an elf could look like human & vice versa) although Firbolg, Lurikeen ETC wouldnt really be able to spy in Albion for example.
>>>

This would satisfy people who want to roleplay spys.

just thinking about it spys should also be given the ability to find other realms spy's. or is this all getting a bit to much Bond like!

 

[Brannor McThife]

First and foremost. I despise spying. I despise people that spoil A GAME for others. I believe it shows you lack moral integrity in real life.

Now, that said, simple stating that Spying is wrong in DAoC, is all very well. But in the end, it comes down to how you deal with it once discoverred, and, HOW you discover it.

Part of this lies with us, the players. If you want to organise a relic raid, don't use /AS. Keep the information tight. As in any army, the soldiers just get told where to go and what to do. They do not question their orders. Only the General and his commanders know what the overall plan is. That allows things to run smoother, and to ensure the smallest possible chance of a leak. Do NOT give EVERYONE the ability to hear the /AS. In fact, very few people should see it at all. Each guild should have a war council. /AS Should NOT be used by scouts. I'm sorry, many of you will disagree with this, but as good as many scouts are, they flood the /AS with information. There should be a group of "intelligence officers" that gather the information, process it, and give it to the General and his commanders.

I'm sorry to say, but the Midgard-Prydwen /AS often degraded into lots of people shouting "This way!", "No! This way!", "What's going on?", "Albs in odin!", etc. The fact that 95% of all guilds in Midgard belong to ONE alliance, is kinda silly. It begs to be spammed.

Why am I saying all of this? Because there will always be spies, two brothers playing opposing realms. Friends in ICQ. Forget two accounts, that's just plain stupid to do that, because they can track everything you say ingame.

So, what can GOA do? Well, for one, they can make a public example. My pet hate with their "enforcement" situation, is that we the players, never experience a public prosecution. They're all dealt with quietly, and many times we never even know if anything happened. I believe they need to give us a "Lawman" as such that will actively hunt down bug abusers, spies, etc. Kemor and Zargar IMO can't do this, as they're busy with a lot of other stuff. But I am hoping that they can get someone to hunt them down and publicly announce their punishment. Isn't that what deterrance is all about? Have a section on the board that states the character name, crime, and punishment.

We pay to play this game, we have the right to know who is cheating us of our entertainment time.

-G

 

[old.chesnor]

I don't think public humiliation, naming and shaming etc. is a particularly helpful idea. Inevitably people will be unjustly accused and thier reputation in game destroyed. Discretion is the key.

Also by publishing those found guilty and punished, you create a daoc underclass, some of whom may actually be proud and revel in that status. It also gives a convienient contact point for those who may wish to 'cheat' but lack the imagination to do it themselves. Its rather like incompetant petty criminals going to prison and spending months with hardened professionals and coming out more versed in crime than they day they went in.

 

[Brannor McThife]

Chesnor, I'm NOT talking about us the players naming and shaming. That most definately does not work. Because we cannot provide hard evidence of cheating. Only GOA can do that.

I'm talking that they have a list on their website like this:

Player Name, Crime, Punishment
Brannor, impersonating GOA staff, 2 week suspension.
AmaAlbSpy, cross-realm spying, Account terminated.

Just like that. So we can SEE that something is happening. And, honestly? If people want to cheat, this list in no way makes it easier. From my MUD days, there was a /crimes of command that would list everything a person had been found guilty of. As well as a /banishments command that listed who was no longer allowed. Both of these had a short description of the crime.

-G

 

[old.chesnor]

I see your point, but I dont understand what purpose this list would serve. If, for example, I wanted a to contact a 2 week banee to determine precisely how they had cheated, this would be a perfect place to start. I could then refine my technique in order not to make the same mistake they did.....

I believe in this game, as in real life, that once a person has been punished for a crime, there the punishment ends. It is clear to me that a public list of name/punishments would mean that person is predujiced within the game once the punishment has been served.

 

[old.Rande Knight]

Originally posted by Brannor McThife
I'm talking that they have a list on their website like this:

Player Name, Crime, Punishment
Brannor, impersonating GOA staff, 2 week suspension.
AmaAlbSpy, cross-realm spying, Account terminated.
-G

I'd be more interested in some realism for the day - public hanging/flogging of the spies/criminals.
Set up a gallows in Camelot (speaking only of Alb here), and make a spectacle of them. Distribute their vault and belongings randomly to the spectators.
Gambling for the guys armour might be a little too Xian tho....

Headsman with a Gigantic Axe for Mid?
Chained to a tree and left there for Hib?

 

[~Mobius~]

yeah but if you had really cheated and that was happening woudnt you just log?

 

[Keri]

Perhaps not naming the character would be better. Just publicise the number of players guilty of each offence and the punishment handed out .. e.g.

Cross-realm spying - 3 players - 2 week suspension
Cross-realm spying - 1 player - account terminated (repeat offender)
Bug abusing - 6 players - 1 week suspension
Selling account - 2 players - account terminated
Buying account - 2 players - account terminated

No names, no realms, but at least it might act as a deterrent.

 

[Brannor McThife]

Yes, perhaps the names of those ONLY suspended could be withheld. Banished, well, they're gone.

As for the ideas of ingame punishment...oooh...have their vaults and all items turned to gold and have an NPC run around the lowbie areas giving out the gold. Yeah! I LIKE that one.

-G

 

[Breni]

Well, I agree in point with most of the posters here...this debate actually started on another board entirely

Still, I don't expect much to happen about it, really, although it is good to know that they have changed their original policy on this matter, which was, I believe, anything goes.

As for dishing out the gold of these offenders, anything to keep me tailoring is always welcomed

 

[Thorarin]

Originally posted by Aeiedil
IP is not a good measure imo, nor credit card. my brother and i both play at the same time from the same phoneline with the same credit card, although most the time we are both hib\exc.

That's what I said


As for the number of offenders caught, it might scare people off, IF the actual numbers are high enough

 

[old.tRoG]

cross-realm spying will never be completely cured, but i suppose there could be some reduction in the ammount of people who commit this crime...

mind you, i dont have any clear idea on how you could spot offenders.

 

[Casbardh]

There should be a group of "intelligence officers" that gather the information, process it, and give it to the General and his commanders.