Champions Viability [Take 2]

[llixeraxu]

http://vnboards.ign.com/message.asp?topic=55576305&replies=53

Hes got a few good points.

Aoe rez sick i think would be going to far however.

 

[Sabu]

I have played some tanks, 50 pally, 50 hero, 50 Savage, leveled them and did a lot of RvR with them. Now im playing a 50 champion and its a very good tank for me.

The real problem is the Determination, but playing in hib is not a great problem.
Allways 2 druids in groups (2 group purges) + my purge + n00bs breaking mezzes = rare times im Freeze in a fight.

Until now i have played with good bards who demezz us fast so really i dont feel like a gimp w/o determination.

Snare, debuffs and DD and the good damage deal makes the champion a very useful tank.

The problem are that champions that only use Anhilitaion+DD, they should better reroll an hero.
You need to use 2-3 quickbars to play champion decently.

Don´t Cry more plz !!!!!

 

[llixeraxu]

Originally posted by Saburo.
Don´t Cry more plz !!!!!

I see. Well id go as far as to say that i dont belive you have any idea of what you talk..

To disregard some of what he says maybe. But to say that champions are totaly viable class for rvr infront of a hero/bm is folly.

And as for crying , you sound to me like the kinda person who is a stranger to debate.

 

[lofff]

tbh i agree him and i take a champ over a hero/bm anytime on my grps :O actually i always make sure i got at least 1 champ in grp, bored of bms/heros who cannot even hit savages/friars/assasins (lets not talk about slam em) debuff dex/qui and they wont dance anymore..

neway am bored of those discussions ;d

 

[llixeraxu]

Originally posted by lofff
tbh i agree him and i take a champ over a hero/bm anytime on my grps :O actually i always make sure i got at least 1 champ in grp, bored of bms/heros who cannot even hit savages/friars/assasins (lets not talk about slam em) debuff dex/qui and they wont dance anymore..

neway am bored of those discussions ;d

So theres not even a problem with WoC

riiiight.

have you read the whole post??

 

[old.Mitsu]

Hmm Anni is the best postitional in LW - can't see why you'd map side chain or something like that.

Don´t Cry more plz !!!!!

Err who's crying? Dont think Llix need some ebay guy to tell him about his class.

 

[StormriderX]

Loff's the best champ I've ever played with - doubt he needs some random vn user to tell him how to play his class tbh.

If he deems his class fine who are you to tell him different?

 

[llixeraxu]

Originally posted by StormriderX
Loff's the best champ I've ever played with - doubt he needs some random vn user to tell him how to play his class tbh.

If he deems his class fine who are you to tell him different?

When did anyone tell him diffrent. I said he had some good points.

I am now, in the intrest of debate, going to argue for the VN poste to see what intresting subjects develope .. for and against.

 

[lofff]

Originally posted by llixeraxu
So theres not even a problem with WoC

riiiight.

have you read the whole post??

i havent read the VN post at all;p i meant i agree with saburo


vn boards store lots a junk, mb i read the whole post later;p

 

[lofff]

Originally posted by StormriderX
Loff's the best champ I've ever played with - doubt he needs some random vn user to tell him how to play his class tbh.

If he deems his class fine who are you to tell him different?

i wub u too /kiss kiss

 

[llixeraxu]

Originally posted by lofff
i havent read the VN post at all;p i meant i agree with saburo


vn boards store lots a junk, mb i read the whole post later;p

I never read VN either, however this was bought to the attention of the team lead and his test team on his private HoV board, which is why I am now passing it on to the Champion comunity on Excal with the intention of providing Jubal with some more feedback on the subject.

 

[lofff]

ok now ive read the extra-f***ing-long vn post, and yes it has sum good points, old points aswell, but u can find points like those in nearly every class in daoc, all have their issues, and overall champ class is still very viable. Yes i would love to see sum of those points fixed sum day, but no hurry, theres much more important issues in many other classes who actually _NEED_ fixing.

 

[Lessurl]

I agree that champs perhaps need a few tweaks and that poster on vn made some good points (and some rather absurd ones, insta rez ill? maybe insta disease would be better to lobby for imo). But, i wouldn't say they are completely unviable in an rvr grp. Which other tank can slap a snare on the enemy tank who's chasing your bard, letting your bard get a safe distance, whilst still beating on the enemys support classes?
The point he makes about assasins getting a better str/con debuff in envenom line is not anything that bothers me. For one thing they have to hit people to apply it, which means they don't benefit from the hp loss caused by the con part of the debuff as they have already damaged their opponent. Whereas a champ can apply the str/con debuff first which lowers the max hps of the enemy, and as they had full hp when it was applied their current hp also, in essence acting like another dd. Often i've found, str/con debuff, dd, annihi is enough to kill many mages (assuming bt has been knocked off already). Also, assasins don't have access to the dex/qui debuff, which although not usefull in many occasions, can make a big difference when fighting an evader or a shield tank or to reduce the amount of blocks that pesky shield tank is getting for the support class you are trying to hit. Just switch target quickly, dex/qui debuff, back to the support class.

Anyway, i could go on for pages and pages about the advantage of champs over bms/heroes. But in essence it can be summed up with one word, versatility. For this we have to sacrifice some things that the other 2 can get. Perhaps after recent patches and improvements to pure tanks we have to sacrifice too much for what we get in return. Det, cheap purge/ip, pf i think are the main points to address and hopefully mythic will do so in an upcoming ra review.

 

[llixeraxu]

off topic : where are you lessurl??

 

[Lessurl]

Was on holiday and account ran out while i was away, can't re-open it atm cos of the work goa are doin on the subs page changin passwords etc.

 

[Sabu]

I must say sorry Lixeraxu, i missunderstood you. I thought it was another post whining about champs.

 

[rauno]

if champs are bad class we would have stop'ed playing em long time ago, i say we are best offence tank (champ assisting hero/bm targets drop realy fast)

but noo we dont need more spells like accuity debuff i already have 4qbars lol we only need beter RA's and we will rock.

 

[offalthwaite]

Limited stealth ability maybe?

I say this as the most fun I've had as a champ, apart from the endless pve raids and equally endless solo pharming of red con mobs, is wandering around odin's when no fekker is up, ganking stealthers and lone casters. (chain and scale wearing classes are a bit of a problem in this age of reactive/alblative etc)
In this situation, I find absolutely no problems at all with snare/debuffs/blast/melee.....perhaps a bit of stealth would open the door to champs as a solo RvR class, and alleviate being seen, and promptly ganked by that tiresome ZERG!

but thats like, just my opinion....man

 

[Xaldrick]

Imo remove insta aoe crowdcontrol spells and reduce sorc mezz range to 1500 - in that case there would be a _reason_ to have a champ (or any hybrid for that matter) in a group to interrupt the casting of the crowdcontrolers in the enemy group. This would not only justify why champs (or hybrids) dont have determination but also flatten out what is in my opinion the most unbalanced aspect of this game (aoe stun shout = /surrender)
Oh and dont even start the *that would make the 3 realms too simular*-argument, since an aspect that so hardly affects the outcome of a battle is so very different for the three sides is just plain wrong.
Oh and ofc, WotC needs a tweaking, but creating a reason to use a combo of "hybrid/pure tanks" over "pure pure tanks" is first priority imo.

 

[Sturrm]

I will agree that there are some good points in the Vn board although some points are generally over the top.

The biggest gripe I currently have with the Champ class is as follows:

During Beta days and during release I played all 3 types of Heros,
Spear, LW and Shield. back in the day when there was no cancelstyle so getting off an after block style etc was impossible.

The biggest problem I had with the hero at that time was that after hitting a target with my Spear the target would just run away. Thanks to being next to Lofff at those crucial moments when he could cast a Snare our target would die quickly. Due to the evident frustration of seeing how targets would just run away I left to Midgard where I played a Skald and other classes. Came back to Hib cause I missed my Friends (game and rl).

Based on all the above I rerolled a Champ and took him to 50, the debuffs and DD were all extra to me, all I wanted was the Snare. Got to 50 and lo and behold Heros/Bm’s have something great called Prevent Flight. PF makes Snare look useless.

I will defend Champs in the sense that having so many instant spells allows the Champ to always have little tricks to get things done in RvR and possibly change the tide in a battle. For example when rooted a Champ can continue to break Casters.

As for the lack of Determination, well…… I got Purge and I always play with Loved (Lofff’s bard) who plays sitting next to me in LAN, so a cure mez is always seconds away. Roots are usually taken care of with the Purge.

As for Hero’s having more Hit points than a Champ, this may be true but 1 vs 1 a Champ always has more hit points thanks to our str/con Debuff.

Point for point in my opinion Champs were far more destructive in the past although they have lost some of their shine due to the RA’s given to pure tanks.

As a summary I can’t stop to whine about Champs, I am in general very happy with my Char although some minor tweaks could be implemented and possibly in the future maybe some of the shine can be given back to the Champ class.

Atm I find that there are far more important issues to be addressed, for example the fact that 1 Savage can out-damage 3 Hibernian tanks assisting (typical whine about savages) etc…..

As for Champs viability in an RvR group, depends who you are running with. I myself always tend to run with the same peeps and in general run as the Main Tank, till now I have not gotten any big whines about play capability although I do maintain the opinion that I prefer a Nightshade that assists properly to an Uber Hero with great items/armor that breaks mezzes.

Spammed /hug to those that know me

Sturrm Lowlander

LOVE4tehWin

 

[DespiseMe]

Pierce/shield all the way ....

not a boring old lw spec like most

if anyone says im gimped , come and have a go if u think your hard enuff

 

[censi]

no tank class is completly "un-viable" in an RVR grp.

I think determination is such a vital RA that champs suffer (as many others do) without it.

If you are a tank class without determination u should have some pretty awsome class abilities to make up for it.

atm champs have some reasonably usefull abilties.

Valewalkers thanes reavers all suffer the same frustrations.

tbh fixing mages should be much more of a priority. But getting mythic to realise why they need fixing is the hard part

 

[llixeraxu]

Originally posted by censi
no tank class is completly "un-viable" in an RVR grp.

I think determination is such a vital RA that champs suffer (as many others do) without it.

If you are a tank class without determination u should have some pretty awsome class abilities to make up for it.

atm champs have some reasonably usefull abilties.

Valewalkers thanes reavers all suffer the same frustrations.

tbh fixing mages should be much more of a priority. But getting mythic to realise why they need fixing is the hard part

I was reading the old team lead reprt for Warrriors. In it the guy replying to it says that Mythic are at the moment working system by which a dedicated sheild tank can provide better blockage for a mage so that they can cast more freely.

Although he goes on to say dont expect this for another couple of patches.

If my memory serves me well :s

 

[dieien]

only change i'd like to see for champions is that the stats debuffs are % instead of a fixed value. since buff caps were removed it would make more sense, because the way it is atm a bot spec buff (/w mota) > best champion stat debuff (unless it's a critical debuff).

using % those who have high stat would notice more impact from the debuff (strength for troll tanks for example) and for those who don't have an uber stat (constitution for avalonian mages for example) wouldn`t lose that much. it would even out the debuff effectiveness between completely useless and fatal, maybe good idea maybe not.

i`m tired flame me tomorrow

 

[Elric IA]

Why not have debuffs modified by INT. Spell damage is for casting classes and that would give more benefit for 23 points of INT got going to level 50.

 

[-Executor-]

Give Determination (in hybrid costs if needed) and i'm happy.