Champion TL Report

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llixeraxu

Guest
Although the Champion is a fun and balanced class, our effectiveness is very situational. We have the tools to perform well in duels and small group encounters, though we do not perform optimally in large RvR battles and high level PvE encounters. Our spells can be beneficial in the right situations, and poor in others.

Our remaining concerns are primarily with specific game mechanics and operation, and how we interact with them. If addressed, these changes can affect and benefit multiple classes.

Concerns

Though debuffs should not be as effective against unbuffed opponents, they should reduce the delve value at minimum. Currently, the level 50 debuffs reduce -45 and -40 to a stat against an unbuffed opponent though they delve at -73 and -70. An adjustment in the code that sets the minimum at the delve amount would allow these spells to be less situational and more valued. This change would improve all spell lines with debuffs, but only against unbuffed opponents, and not to a dramatic degree.

Endurance costs for shout debuffs is extremely high. Champions should sacrifice endurance for casting their spells. However, Valor as a line is designed to cast several spells in succession at a great cost. It can leave the Champion without the endurance to fully use his melee abilities. The endurance penalty when casting all of these spells is too high and should be reviewed and adjusted. This change is focused on Champions, as many other hybrid classes have already had their endurance costs reviewed recently.

Snare is overwritten by speed song, making it less effective in most RvR encounters. Snares need improvement to perform their role in combat effectively. Currently, any class with improved speed available in their group can escape from our snare after the combat timer has elapsed. Either snare should overwrite speed enhancement, or the snares speed reduction should be improved at higher levels to counter this. This change would affect all spell lines with snare; though especially help Champions and Skalds.

Due to the mechanics of how styles are calculated, the attack speed debuff can be detrimental in short lived RvR combat. This spell takes times for the benefits of the swing delay to catch up with the damage increase from styled damage. When an opponent’s attack speed is slowed, their time between swings is increased but their style damage is increased. This is because the code is currently using the attack speed debuff as a factor in calculating styled damage. The debuff should be changed to factor in after normal style damage is calculated. Though it would be a significant change, applying buffs and debuffs outside of style damage would improve all attack speed debuffs and haste spells for all classes which use them.


Specline issues

Blades – The Blades line has two styles based off of a block, Return Blade and Horizon Blade. One of these styles should be changed to a parry reactionary, which this line lacks.

Blunt – The Brusier chain starts with a 2 second stun. Low duration stuns are actually detrimental in melee combat as it provides little to no benefit and provides stun immunity. One solution is to remove or replace the effect from this style. Another solution is to base the duration of immunity on the length of the stun. The anytime style Force of Might does not compare to Slam in damage or endurance usage. The bonus damage for this style should be reviewed and increased; it is rarely used by Blunt users.

Large Weapons – Hibernian Vigor is the second style in the Celtic Rage chain with a 2 second stun. . Low duration stuns are actually detrimental in melee combat as it provides little to no benefit and provides stun immunity. One solution is to remove or replace the effect from this style. Another solution is to base the duration of immunity on the length of the stun. The style Domination does not compare to Celtic Fury in damage or endurance usage. The bonus damage for this style should be reviewed and increased; it is rarely used by Large Weapon users.

Pierce – Sidewinder is not performing as it should in comparison to the growth rates of other styles. The Diamondback combo duplicates a bleed effect in Dragonspider and Wyvern’s Bite.


Other issues

- Exemption flag on 65+ mobs not applied to debuffs
- Resist Rates seem very high for debuffs
- Tireless doesn’t improve as described at subsequent levels
- Empty Mind doesn’t improve as described at subsequent levels
- Mastery of Arms is not working as described
- Wild Arcana reduces 62% of amount printed on screen
- Wild Arcana criticals even when resisted, unlike other criticals
- Wrath of the Champion needs improvement
- Stat reduction printed on screen for debuff spells
- Determination at increased (pre-1.53) cost for melee-based hybrids

Item Issues

+Valor items – Valor items do provide a small benefit to our direct damage spells, though Intelligence benefits us much more. When creating their own spellcrafting templates, most champs do not add Valor. As it does provide some benefit, it is understandable that it end up in some random items. However, it is undesirable in epic/high end loot and quest rewards.

Epic Armor – Our armor is somewhat lopsided in its benefits. It currently favors Large Weapon Champions, leaving a large portion of champs without a melee bonus from the armor. Our Epic Armor has a 20% crush resistance, and no slash resistance. Valor is also an undesirable bonus and should be replaced with Intelligence (see above).

Finaly i belive there should be a Lw evade or block based reactionary style.

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E

Elric IA

Guest
Not having had the chance to look I presume this is up on Hall of Valor.

A lot of the issues are not champ specific (debuffs, snare, styles etc.)

The other thing about Celtic Fury is not only does it outdamage Domination but it is also quite economic with endurance compared to other styles (other than reactionary) so it tends to get used a lot for that purpose.

Wrath of the Champion is indeed a shite RA considering its cost. Improvement is a bit of an understatement given it has the damage of two DDs (800 on greys compared to 385 for a DD) can only be use once in 30 mins and is a potential mezzbreaker.

Finally an LW evade based sytle would be nice but Shatter is a block based reactionary style that we have already.

Will have to see what the champ community says.
 
P

Pin

Guest
The comments on snare are not valid - if you have a 200% speed spell and a 40% snare on you, you should (and currently do) run at 120% speed, nothing else would be sensible.

The comments on (str/con & dex/qui) debuffs are not valid - debuff effectiveness was changed so that they scale depending on how high the target's stats are. They were changed to be this way because a) they were weak against buffed opponents and b) they were overpowered against unbuffed opponents (often reducing targets to negative-valued stats).

Is this a new TL, or something?
 
S

StormriderX

Guest
same old tl - asking for a block reactionary when lw already has shatter is kinda silly though...
 
L

llixeraxu

Guest
Originally posted by StormriderX
same old tl - asking for a block reactionary when lw already has shatter is kinda silly though...

lol, the evade bit and the block thing is a joke. As you cant weild a shield and hold a lw... But i can see how this would be interrprated as above.

Pin i shall post your message so that he can see it.
 
L

lofff

Guest
urgh

this guy used to b more brighty;P

the hibernian vigor/domination issues are old crap that storm all LW users and really needs to get fixed

debuffs are ok nowadays tho, but i would like to see snare prevailing 10secs or so on target instead of breaking on next hit.. cos that makes it preety dul, and for those who whine bout giving a free pf.. we spec 50valor for it -.-

champ RA.. jsut remove it and think sth new, cos its so pathetic it doesnt deserve discussing;P
 
R

rauno

Guest
Campions need RAs moustly fixed like purge it costs 10 points for cahmp it is too mutch, Determination must be added to champ Ras and btw debuffes debuff always 45.- it is a bug.
 
L

lofff

Guest
well i was there when debuffs were clearly overpowered, and i was there when debuffs were clearly worthless, i would say am happy as they are now.
 
L

llixeraxu

Guest
The comments on snare are not valid - if you have a 200% speed spell and a 40% snare on you, you should (and currently do) run at 120% speed, nothing else would be sensible.


The question is, should the spells stack together or should the snare spell overwrite the speed spell. This is a valid question. With the prevelance of speed in RvR combat the spell isn't very effective at snaring an opponent.

Quote:
The comments on (str/con & dex/qui) debuffs are not valid - debuff effectiveness was changed so that they scale depending on how high the target's stats are. They were changed to be this way because a) they were weak against buffed opponents and b) they were overpowered against unbuffed opponents (often reducing targets to negative-valued stats).


There were some major changes to stats and debuffs since release. Early in the game there was no floor to debuffs, and many players did not have high stats as the game was still in its infancy. Debuffs were very powerful and were able to reduce stats into the negatives, which threw everything to hell.

Soon afterwards, changes to the stat system were implemented as well as the first change to debuffs, which were severely weakened. A floor was introduced as well which prevented Champions from reducing a stat below 10.

It still needed to be fine tuned. I pushed for an improvement to the base debuff values. I got it. What I am requesting now is further tuning. However, our debuffs are very effective against buffed opponents. An improvement in this area would overpower us. The only aspect of our debuffs which need improvement is against an unbuffed opponent.

This is the Cliff Notes version, I'd have to go way back in the archives to pull up the threads Ive written on these topics and the changes back then. Ive been the Champ TL a loooong time
 
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Pin

Guest
Originally posted by llixeraxu
The question is, should the spells stack together or should the snare spell overwrite the speed spell. This is a valid question. With the prevelance of speed in RvR combat the spell isn't very effective at snaring an opponent.

Well, my opinion is that speed enhancing spells and speed reducing spells should stack. the act of casting the snare will initially break the speed spell, and if the target is then left alone until the combat timer expired the speed spell will kick in. I see nothing wrong with this.

Originally posted by llixeraxu
There were some major changes to stats and debuffs since release. Early in the game there was no floor to debuffs, and many players did not have high stats as the game was still in its infancy. Debuffs were very powerful and were able to reduce stats into the negatives, which threw everything to hell.

Soon afterwards, changes to the stat system were implemented as well as the first change to debuffs, which were severely weakened. A floor was introduced as well which prevented Champions from reducing a stat below 10.

It still needed to be fine tuned. I pushed for an improvement to the base debuff values. I got it. What I am requesting now is further tuning. However, our debuffs are very effective against buffed opponents. An improvement in this area would overpower us. The only aspect of our debuffs which need improvement is against an unbuffed opponent.

This is the Cliff Notes version, I'd have to go way back in the archives to pull up the threads Ive written on these topics and the changes back then. Ive been the Champ TL a loooong time

I also see nothing wrong with the levels that debuffs debuff unbuffed opponents. Champions currently seem to be one of the more balanced classes around and the debuffs currently have enough effect on other unbuffed melee opponents to bring about a level playing field. The debuffs are not meant to destroy a character.
 
O

old.Mitsu

Guest
Determination is never gonna happen. ;)

Reduction on power/end cost would be a sensible demand, and maybe a better unique RA. There are a lot of classes who have it worse than champions.

Bit sad that str/con debuff wont encumber mages anymore tho.
 
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Elric IA

Guest
From what I remember reading the debuffs do not take item bonuses into account hence the reduced effectiveness against unbuffed opponents. I am sure this though isn't class specific and i think I read it in a TL report for another class recently.
 
X

Xaldrick

Guest
IP cost is 23 RSP's in total which is huge, but I can see the point in that as champions are not "pure" tanks. However the worst thing imo is the lack of determination. Often when I ask for RvR groups in the top guilds, I get the reply "Champ :/" and that is purely because they lack determination. Thanes should have this problem too. Paladins on the other hand shouldnt suffer this problem, as they have the end regen spell of albion and are more or less a requirement in a RvR group (not all sure about the 2 other hybrid tanks, just stating it out of char docs).
Also, champs have a lot of caster RA-stuff like mcl and raging power. Honestly, who would ever want this on a char which is primarily melee ?
 
T

ToyMachine

Guest
I'd like to see the champ only RA changed ...

Changed completly or at least putting the cost down

I would also like to see some sort of bleeding style apart from the side one , cos in rvr it can be tricky to pull off if u have a moving target or u aint used anni on the target first

I mostly use Celtic fury all the time in rvr as a good anytime style , it doesnt use a great amount of end and the dmg is good....

I think they had to put MCL in really , i suppose if u had 3 points spare u could get it , but personally i wouldnt cos i dont have power consumption problems..

But then again what would i know :p
 
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old.Mitsu

Guest
I'm very tempted to drop IP for Avoid pain. IP is only really needed when the battle is going very bad whereas AP can help you win the fight from the beginning. Guess the grass is always greener. :rolleyes:

On a sidenote - how many is going shieldspec if they get the chance?
 
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Elric IA

Guest
I won't be but I believe LLix has (see other post)
 
L

lofff

Guest
tbh i dont care bout determination, with 50%+ resists its not as if i stand CCed much longer than 10sec, thats when i dont get cured or purged.. and it isnt really that hard to avoid getting CCed 90% situations..

edit: oh and ip, yep really expensive, many times ive doubt its worth it but combined with ap it is, only ip? no.
 
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Pin

Guest
On the RA front...

Other than my opinion that IP shouldn't be in the game (no character should have a full insta-heal that's bigger/better than your main healer's insta), Champions have it slightly better than Reavers with access to AP (Champs are much closer to Reavers than to Paladins) and MCL/RP (Champs may not have power consumption problems, but Reavers certainly do - even with maxxed Piety - but we don't have access to MCL). At least our class RA is better (same damage as WotC, but is a 70% lifetap, but still isn't wonderful due to spirit resists).


Determination won't happen, but if it does I'd damned well want it for my Reaver... Same with Prevent Flight and cheap IP ;)



When compared to other hybrids, I think Champs do quite well, the problems that I see are much more to do with Hybrids in general.
 
I

ilaya

Guest
Agree with Pin on the IP front here.. its's an extra life an champs as well as other chars dont get it.. other stuff hardly makes up for it.

Champion only Ra is a joke tbh.. rather have something that gives us a boost to our hp/con or summit since we dont gain con when levelling (champs biggest problem btw.. )

Self buff is nice, dont get me wrong.. but compared to other classes Ra's, WoTC is utter shite. Cant ever use it without being the last char standing or in REALLY desparate times.

As for the caster type things? i have MCL, aug aucuity 2, serenity 2 and Wild Arcana. I can ever imagine being without them.. other stuff i can drop. Mana is my real problem these days..

Would like the RA that gives extra damage to spells tbh.. :) that dd will hurt :)

Still think if u play a champ as an out and out tank then u are doing summit wrong tbh.. we aint.. just my opinion though and I know peeps are gonna disagree. dont expect wardens to be main tanks in groups do you? they are hybrids too..
 

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