Cap DPS of a PA

[Azathrim]

This is a repost from a recent thread on the subject of how to calculate the DPS of a PA in 1.82.

It would be interesting to see how this was measured in a reasonable fashion. I can start with two ways, one obviously more suitable than the other.

1) Simply take the cap damage of a PA.
2) Take the cap damage of a PA measured against the time it takes to swing again.

The first option is bad because it doesn't take into account the delay until the next swing. Only rarely will an assassin be able to one-shot any enemy, and thus it's important to see how long it is until the assassin can land the follow up style CD.

Cap PA DPS = Cap Damage / Weapon Delay

Thus the second option arises. This is a far better way to measure it and let me give an example of it:

So let us take an example (taken from a test character on a test server, but in no way a general example).

Nightshade:
MH delay: 4.2
OH delay: 3.4

MH swing time: 1.9
Duel swing time: 1.7
(ie, if only MH swings it's a 1.9 delay, otherwise a 1.7 delay)

MH Cap: 903
OH Cap: 192

MH swing dps: (903 / 1.9) = 475
Duel Swing dps: (1095 / 1.7) = 644

On the assumption that the NS have enough CD to swing off-hand 50% of the time, we can now calculate:

Average CD PA cap dps: ( 644 + 475 ) / 2 = 559


Let us now look at the Shadowblade using a 5.7 delay weapon.

Cap 2H: 1419

2H dly: 5.7

2H swing: 2.54

2H swing dps: 559




These were one example of caps. Certain important stats are unknown:
- ToA bonuses (style/melee/haste)
- Stats (ie, Quickness).

So bear in mind, this is an EXAMPLE. However, those of you with high rank characters with access to Pendragon, feel free to do a similiar calculation and post your stats. With more data and enough meta information about the setups we might be able to see how the difference between 2h and cd/dw/la damage varies.

If this example turns out to be a general enough and the Cap PA damage is equal for the different types of PA's we can conclude that the higher increase to 2h PA's were only bringing them up to par with the also increased damage of normal PA's.

There are different benefits to each though:

2h pro:
- Higher chance to 1-shot casters.
- Better e-peen growth from screenshots.
- Better time to position for CD.

2h con:
- Only one poison applied.
- More time for the enemy to counter CD

cd/dw pro:
- Chance of more poisons applied.
- Potential for higher dps (if off-hand swings).
- Less time for CD to land the stun.

cd/dw con:
- Potential for lesser dps (if off-hand doesn't swing).
- Less time to position for CD.



Anyone got any better suggestion on how to measure the Cap DPS of a PA?

 

[Ryuno]

2h con:
- Only one poison applied.

Most SB with half a brain use 2h for Perf, then switch back to LA. So if you put your con debuff on your 2h, your not really losing anything important apart from a few seconds until your next swing and you drop 2 more poisons on them.

 

[sxx]

- Less time for CD to land the stun.

add (if OH swings)

 

[Azathrim]

- Less time for CD to land the stun.

add (if OH swings)

If OH swings it's even less time.

 

[Celestino]

most sbs with half a brain won't discuss about whats "better" or doin more damage as there is no general better choice but situational choices based not only on spec but on playstyle, equipment (swapping stats loss) and the opponent ur up against...

apart from that the time to the next swing doesn't really matter when it comes to damage as no style will do better damage than perf... the real question is if 2h perfing someone with good defence or lag is worth the extra risk of losing the CD stun and thats not really something u can find out discussing...

 

[Azathrim]

I am not really interested in discussing the benefits or disadvantages of either setup. What my main intent with this post is, is to find out a way to measure the damage of a PA.

After we have some solid numbers, we can discuss what is better or worse than the other. But currently you see posts with either absurd claims or uninformed prejudices. Only way to get rid of those things is to find a reasonable way to measure things at.

 

[Celestino]

ok... up to now there was no 2h bonus, so everyone used LA as weaponswitching and the delay after the perf were unfavorable compared to the bit of extra damage from slower swingtime

Now there is a 2h bonus that means it might actually be worth swapping weapons for 2h gaining the bonus damage if u don't lose anything afterwards

So the conclusion is rather simple: if u perf with a 2h u will do more damage with the perf for a slightly longer delay of about 1 sec (250 dex 10 quickness 4.2 weap -> 2.3 delay 5.7 weap 3.1) unless u find a style that does the 1h /2h damage differance (i'd say about 1/3) in that second
Ur free to calculate the exact numbers but i cba to

Now if u want to continue and go away from the pure damage discussion and talk about overall damage including the damage done during the cd stun u'd need to factor in the risk of losing the cd in that 1 second (strafe, increased chance of block vs 2h etc), the chance of another stun hitting instead (for example Frosty Gaze / Niord's Fury if specced), dual wield mainhand damage redux, etc etc etc

good luck with that ...

 

[Azathrim]

No, I don't want to go away from the pure damage discussion.

ok... up to now there was no 2h bonus, so everyone used LA as weaponswitching and the delay after the perf were unfavorable compared to the bit of extra damage from slower swingtime

From the short test described above, there are no extra damage. The DPS is the same for CD/DW/LW and 2H PA's. The damage per hit is bigger on 2H ofcourse, but the DPS is the same.

Is it a reasonable way to calculate the DPS though? And, is the Cap DPS a reasonable measurement to use when comparing PAs?

 

[Celestino]

you are aware of the 1.82 patchnotes hitting us tomorrow ?

- While using a critical strike style which requires a stealth opening, if the player is using a two-handed weapon, the damage has been increased significantly.

http://support.darkageofcamelot.com/kb/article.php?id=854


apart from that, the cap damage will only be a good way of measurement when all other factors remain the same, ie same weaponskill damagetype etc
Iam not sure how the left axe mainhand damage reduction affects perfs but this would be another thing to keep in mind

 

[Jox]

...

So the conclusion is rather simple: if u perf with a 2h u will do more damage with the perf for a slightly longer delay of about 1 sec

Slightly?!

If you landed a pa with 2-hander during the summer youd be lucky to get of creeping before the winter.

And wielding a 2-hander fucks up your template, especially if you use any mainhand(Str +12) + Malice. Malice have Con Overcap +5, Hits Overcap +40, so you would lose hits wieldning a 2-hander.

The answer could be, to use Malice as a 2-hander(Good bye sweet Battler).

But everytime I have tried 2-hander it feels slow and clumpsy.

Will be fun to see the power of 2-handed perfs now, if it migth even be worth it.

 

[Svartmetall]

Will be fun to see the power of 2-handed perfs now, if it might even be worth it.

How does PAing for 1,864 sound?

Nobbled from VN:

http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/2921/sshot0239bu.jpg

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/332/sshot0104ls.jpg

 

[Puppet]

From the short test described above, there are no extra damage. The DPS is the same for CD/DW/LW and 2H PA's. The damage per hit is bigger on 2H ofcourse, but the DPS is the same.

Is it a reasonable way to calculate the DPS though? And, is the Cap DPS a reasonable measurement to use when comparing PAs?

It is a reasonable way to calculate the relative PA-strength. I strongly stay away from the 'DPS' because its not really DPS in a traditional sense, because its only measured for a short period of time.

However, what you forget to mention, is that the test-setup I used on Gorre is largely beneficial to NS/INF with your definition of the 'DPS'. I'll explain:

PA-damage consist of three portions:

* Base-damage, unstyled.
* Style-damage, depends on your CS-spec
* 1H or 2H modifier/multiplier.

Now iirc, the 2H multiplier for 2H perfs is like 25%.

The biggest problem in the test is that the 2H is incredibly slow, resulting in a massive drop of the swing-time to Creeping Death. Slow weapons give a larger unstyled base-damage, however they dont increase Style-damage component on PA/BS. They only depend on CS-spec.

You say there is no 'DPS'-difference between 1H and 2H-perfs. I say there is, depending on the speed of the weapons. In our test, we where using a 4.2 (iirc) MH, and a 5.7 2H.

What would happen if I would have used a 4.4 speed Twohander? It would drop the PA-damage by a small bit, as only the unstyled-portion (base-damage) would drop. However the delay to CD would be alot shorter, resulting in a higher 'DPS'-score from your calculations. You would see that the 'DPS' of the SB suddenly increases to about 20-25% more then the INF/NS 'DPS'.

 

[Celestino]

ye i know 0.8 sec delay is quite long nowadays still fights usually are longer

using malice as a 2h wouldn't solve it coz the second u switch u lose the bonuses and the new bonuses are reapplied so even if the weapon u switch to has exactly the same stats u will lose health

Iam certainly not saying everyone should go critblade now, read my other post... its just another tool shadowblades had added / improved which they can use to get a bit of extra initial damage if the situation allows it...

@ Azathrim

i've been ignoring that test of urs since my first post coz its just not conclusive without details / screenshots etc... to me it looks like mere speculation

 

[Svartmetall]

It is a reasonable way to calculate the relative PA-strength. I strongly stay away from the 'DPS' because its not really DPS in a traditional sense, because its only measured for a short period of time.

However, what you forget to mention, is that the test-setup I used on Gorre is largely beneficial to NS/INF with your definition of the 'DPS'. I'll explain:

PA-damage consist of three portions:

* Base-damage, unstyled.
* Style-damage, depends on your CS-spec
* 1H or 2H modifier/multiplier.

Now iirc, the 2H multiplier for 2H perfs is like 25%.

The biggest problem in the test is that the 2H is incredibly slow, resulting in a massive drop of the swing-time to Creeping Death. Slow weapons give a larger unstyled base-damage, however they dont increase Style-damage component on PA/BS. They only depend on CS-spec.

You say there is no 'DPS'-difference between 1H and 2H-perfs. I say there is, depending on the speed of the weapons. In our test, we where using a 4.2 (iirc) MH, and a 5.7 2H.

What would happen if I would have used a 4.4 speed Twohander? It would drop the PA-damage by a small bit, as only the unstyled-portion (base-damage) would drop. However the delay to CD would be alot shorter, resulting in a higher 'DPS'-score from your calculations. You would see that the 'DPS' of the SB suddenly increases to about 20-25% more then the INF/NS 'DPS'.

It's very tempting to just automatically go for the slowest 2H possible, to go for the OMGUBERWTFPWN huge PAs of dh00m. However...if you don't one-shot your target (those shots I posted notwithstanding, one-shotting a target outright is still rare), then you're going to be standing there watching the tumbleweeds roll past until your next swing. It's a trade-off.

Pretty much any SB spec is a huge compromise, anyway...it's without a doubt the hardest Mid class to spec, as whatever you go for means gimping something else (until like RR9 or something anyway); I'm levelling up an SB at the moment, and still haven't really been able to decide upon a final spec. Every time I talk to another SB I get more conflicting advice, and get more confused...this week's intended spec (full auto Stealth) is pretty much a Soulblade, 44 CS/44 LA/37 Axe/35 Stealth/6 Env. But next week it'll probably be something else...

 

[Puppet]

i've been ignoring that test of urs since my first post coz its just not conclusive without details / screenshots etc... to me it looks like mere speculation

Its not speculation, he got those numbers from me and I grabbed em from the testserver.

 

[Celestino]

well then why don't u give details like for example cs spec unstyled caps etc coz thats actually pretty interesting when it comes to perfs ...

 

[Azathrim]

What would happen if I would have used a 4.4 speed Twohander? It would drop the PA-damage by a small bit, as only the unstyled-portion (base-damage) would drop. However the delay to CD would be alot shorter, resulting in a higher 'DPS'-score from your calculations. You would see that the 'DPS' of the SB suddenly increases to about 20-25% more then the INF/NS 'DPS'.

I don't know. Can you use your Gorre access to find out?

While at it, see what happens if you use a 3.9/2.7 setup on the NS. Or perhaps even a 3.4/2.7

 

[Puppet]

I don't know. Can you use your Gorre access to find out?

While at it, see what happens if you use a 3.9/2.7 setup on the NS. Or perhaps even a 3.4/2.7

I tried this abit out, but the non-English language, and not having access to different speed weapons of 100% QUA made it quite ZzZZzz.

The fact remains however that getting faster swingspeed equals more 'PA-DPS'. While that goes for both mechanics, it still caps at 1.5 sec swing-speed. 3.4/2.7 for example is very gimped, because ur just going below the 1.5 sec swing-cap, so ur only loosing damage.

The Shadowblade should get the fastest 2H possible to maximize his 'PA dps' according to ur definition. His swingspeed isnt even close to the 1.5 sec cap. No matter how you look at it, the best DPS comes when the SB takes the fastest 2H he can get.

The real problem however is that some weapon-speeds are simply not available, I doubt there is a 4.1 2H-Sword in Midgard for example That would give a PA-cap for 1300-1400 while still swinging at 1.8 sec :O

Oh, Celestino, the unstyled-cap was either 440 or 492. I forgot that

 

[Azathrim]

Yeah, the DPS would increase by using a fast two-hander. Would still be nice to have some sort of comparable test to see how it developed. You would give up access to most artifact two-handers as well.

 

[Oboy]

uber slow 2hander with mezzpoison on will take down most stuff.
Using a fast 2hander will only increase dmg if u fail PA or fighting something that can survive ur PA+CD+SS like a tank with ip3. Fighting against other stealthers with a 2h is no no cos u will get evaded almost 50% and only evade around 25% urself.

So u go either for swap or for mezzpoison/lots of SL´s in temp/vanish.

 

[Puppet]

uber slow 2hander with mezzpoison on will take down most stuff.
Using a fast 2hander will only increase dmg if u fail PA or fighting something that can survive ur PA+CD+SS like a tank with ip3.

The 2H-bonus is far more important then the weaponspeed when u perf. Weaponspseed only has a very small impact on PA-damage, simply because the unstyled-portion of perfs is relatively low.

I dont know how fast the faster 2H weapons are, but I would use a fast 2H weapon as a SB if I was perfing. The small decrease in cap doesnt outweight the chance of actually landing CD.

 

[Celestino]

still nothing about spec ...

@ oboy: slow weapons only increase the base damage not the perf style damage

The old formula was like this:
75+ CS Spec*9+base damage
so the only thing increasing with a slower weapon is the base damage portion so u'd end up doing 50 to 100 pts more way slower
Someone posted the "new" ones on vn but as iam not a regular reader there i got no idea if they were confirmed, thats pretty much the reason why i asked for all the details coz it allows ppl to look into it

 

[Azathrim]

One thing that striked me as peculiar Puppet. You had provided me the below numbers for the NS doing PA with the 1.82 improved PA. That's a 4.2/3.4 weapon setup.

MH Cap: 903
OH Cap: 192

MH swing dps: (903 / 1.9) = 475
Duel Swing dps: (1095 / 1.7) = 644

Now you post the below screenshot of you doing a PA with an Adze. I assume that's a 3.9/3.4 weapon setup.

Those numbers are greater than your provided data - even with a faster weapon?

How can this be?

 

[Puppet]

One thing that striked me as peculiar Puppet. You had provided me the below numbers for the NS doing PA with the 1.82 improved PA. That's a 4.2/3.4 weapon setup.



Now you post the below screenshot of you doing a PA with an Adze. I assume that's a 3.9/3.4 weapon setup.

Those numbers are greater than your provided data - even with a faster weapon?

How can this be?

Been eons, but I only saw it now after reading some other stuff. Reason I got (much) greater caps on my real nightshade is because of having +18 CS on my Nightshade, and the Shade (and SB) tested on Gorre had, iirc, only +11 CS.

 

[living]

Winged helm use will fuck up any PA damage tbh ;> Nothing more fun to get PA'd, CD'd and then beaten 4 times only to have lost 20% when you come out of the stun.

Though any legendary weap will fix that right up :>