Music Cables

[old.Tohtori]

You should also consider that some people hear more clearly, not necessarily better, but more clearly on other frequencies. Could be that TdC is like me and can hear before a lightbulb goes pop by the zrrt sound it starts to make, or hear rat traps that aren't supposed to be heard by humans

All i know about cables is that an itnernet cable length does affect speed.

 

[Scouse]

"Yes, but I tried this homoeopathic medicine and I definitely feel better, so it really works."

The wonders of placebo eh?

 

[TdC]

You should also consider that some people hear more clearly, not necessarily better, but more clearly on other frequencies. Could be that TdC is like me and can hear before a lightbulb goes pop by the zrrt sound it starts to make, or hear rat traps that aren't supposed to be heard by humans

All i know about cables is that an itnernet cable length does affect speed.

sometimes I hear those things. deffo when I was younger. Sadly I've really fucked up my ears at concerts and have bad tinnitus in my right ear to boot (also concert damage). I'm really careful with ear protection these days though.

I'm still unsure if it's placebo or not, especially with the USB cable. I mean, rationally I know I should not be hearing a difference, and I have read plenty of articles -one from a former McIntosh employee - which explained exactly why *any* kind of exotic cable is hogwash. On the other hand, I've also made my own cables. of which some I have discarded because they were sounding crap, and some I kept because they were not sounding crap.

 

[Jupitus]

Ok, when I first started reading this thread I thought TdC is being daft, but here's a thought (and I really don't know the answer to this)... what if there is a software layer on the receiving device which is able to detect what appear to be bad bits of data when compared alogrithmicly with it's surrounding bits and through a smart set of rules apply corrective assumptions to the digital signal? Personally I think the cable itself would have to be pretty shite to cause a digital drop out in the first place, but is this kind of auto-correction feasible at all?

 

[Wij]

No, because it is data over a USB cable. If the cable did that then it wouldn't work as a printer or external hd cable AT ALL.

I can think in PCL5 so I know what would happen to a printer if a few bytes were wrong, and it is most certainly not that there would be lack of richness in the blues and reds

 

[TdC]

Ok, when I first started reading this thread I thought TdC is being daft, but here's a thought (and I really don't know the answer to this)... what if there is a software layer on the receiving device which is able to detect what appear to be bad bits of data when compared alogrithmicly with it's surrounding bits and through a smart set of rules apply corrective assumptions to the digital signal?

indeed. however, if the cable is not damaged and is made to function within spec, it should make no audible difference at all.

No, because it is data over a USB cable. If the cable did that then it wouldn't work as a printer or external hd cable AT ALL.

exactly. the cable works. it should not have a detectable audible difference with any other working cable.

I can think in PCL5

freak

 

[Killswitch]

After testing with an oscilloscope and some pretty expensive software, I can categorically state that there is no difference in the signal received from an amplifier across 1m of copper bell-wire right up to cables costing around £600 per metre. As in, none at all within a range going from around 25% above and below the absolute maximum and minumum frequencies audible by humans. Construction in terms of connectors is worth paying for to a point, anything else is provably a rip-off, unless you believe your ears are magic and can hear signals that don't appear on a professional scope

Also, digital is digital is digital, end of story.

 

[Nate]

Tbh guys you all need a new set of ears. Bionic ears are the new thing to get better sound.

 

[Chilly]

Right I've just read some of the USB spec.

TdC could well be hearing a difference between his old printer cable, designed for Bulk Transfers (with heavy error correction) and his new cable - designed to be perfect. The transfer mode used by most audio applications via USB is called Isochronous Transfer. Characteristics include: bounded latency, known but not corrected errors via CRC checks, guaranteed access to USB bandwidth in a multi host environment.

Basically this means his old cable may have been so shit that it was dropping packets and the child device would probably not bother recovering them, favouring instead low latency over accuracy. Most usb audio controllers are designed to be used in studio setups where time sync is way more important than the occasional blip or packet drop.

The upshot is that the old cable may well have been introducing artefacts into the bitstream which the controller may have averaged over so to produce a continuous, erroneous waveform rather than a gappy one.

I would be very surprised if TdCs cable performs any better than a reasonably priced cable (say 5 quid), but would not be surprised if it performs better than the cheapest possible cable HP bundled with his printer.

 

[Killswitch]

I would be very surprised if TdCs cable performs any better than a reasonably priced cable (say 5 quid), but would not be surprised if it performs better than the cheapest possible cable HP bundled with his printer.

I don't disagree on any specific point, but what is the likelihood of this bad behaviour producing a consistent change in the character of the sound? It's not like an analogue signal where (in theory at least) high frequencies could be attenuated more strongly than low ones. I reckon it's much more likely you'd get "pops" or just silence, if there were enough missing bits.

In terms of CRC detection without correction the standard quoted error rate for Isochronous Transfer seems to be 1 error per month of continuous listening. For a dodgy cable to cause consistent changes in sound quality (if such a thing is even possible, which I highly doubt) you'd need probably tens or hundreds of errors per SECOND of listening (USB Isochronous Transfers are locked to one "packet" per millisecond, regardless of data rate or for that matter whether there is any data to send at all).

I'm still going to go with placebo effect...the brain is a more powerful thing than most people realise. If people can believe in the word of God so strongly that they'll blow themselves up on a bus, I'm pretty sure they can also be convinced that two identical products sound different, especially if they are financially or emotionally invested in one of them!

EDIT: yes, I know that I'm a small, petty-minded person with no life. Obligatory XKCD http://xkcd.com/386/

 

[TdC]

tbh I do not know what I am hearing (or not hearing) really. my brain tells me it's different. also, a mate is pushing me to use a battery psu on the dac. MF already make a higher spec psu that they market themselves for the vdacII

 

[MYstIC G]

Now, could I tell the difference between a £100 length of cable and a £1000 length of cable? I very much doubt it. There's also the argument that if you're spending £2k on an amp, £3k on a set of floorstanders and £1000 on a DAC - why would you use cheap cabling for your speaker runs?

Because you have enough common sense to know you buy the best value product to do the job rather than "lets get that cos it's expensive" and cheap is a relative term?

Wait for it

 

[Raven]

I always thought it was down to the amp and the speakers that made any difference. I remember a mate spent loads of money on cabling and I couldn't tell the difference. He was convinced though!

It's like the gold plated plugs. What fucking difference does it make, if the wire is copper?

 

[Tom]

It is primarily the room acoustics that makes the difference in a hifi system, followed by the speakers, then either the source or amplification (opinions differ on that one).

I'm not convinced about gold-plated plugs either. Most connectors are plated with nickel to reduce oxidation/corrosion (nobody uses copper connectors, copper turns black pretty quickly). Gold oxidises quite easily. I think its just one of those "gold is expensive therefore better" marketing ploys, just like oxygen-free copper, which again, makes bugger all difference in hifi systems.

 

[Chilly]

It is primarily the room acoustics that makes the difference in a hifi system, followed by the speakers, then either the source or amplification (opinions differ on that one).

I'm not convinced about gold-plated plugs either. Most connectors are plated with nickel to reduce oxidation/corrosion (nobody uses copper connectors, copper turns black pretty quickly). Gold oxidises quite easily. I think its just one of those "gold is expensive therefore better" marketing ploys, just like oxygen-free copper, which again, makes bugger all difference in hifi systems.

Kef ship all their high end speakers with nickel connectors on the back. If it's good enough for them it's good enough for me!