Balancing Casters and Tanks in RvR

[nerfbbs]

Just wondered now that tanks have grapple to protect casters (28 limit-abusers excepted) from mellee attack whether it might be a good idea for a caster ML ability to protect tanks from spells this would mean:

Groups wud need a mix of tanks and casters to function properly

Casters wud tend to take on casters while tanks engaged each other

At the moment it seems tanks are too strong for a while and all the casters complain so then Mythic redress the balance by making casters totally dominant for a few months and tanks complain. By making them dependent on each other maybe evrybody could enjoy the game at the same time.

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[Awarkle]

its the old issue of

1. do you assist train melee them to death
2. do you assist train caster them to death

the same goes for

Assist MA + face(/stick if your a tank) + spam nuke/anystyle hit combo = win.

Dark age doesnt really require much skill when you think about it . Just need fast machine so you dont lag and the time and money for buffbot account + mls + artifacts +sc + knowing your class + 7 other buddies in the same situation to form the perfect team

Us mere mortals cant really compete

 

[Glyph]

its the old issue of

1. do you assist train melee them to death
2. do you assist train caster them to death

the same goes for

Assist MA + face(/stick if your a tank) + spam nuke/anystyle hit combo = win.

Dark age doesnt really require much skill when you think about it . Just need fast machine so you dont lag and the time and money for buffbot account + mls + artifacts +sc + knowing your class + 7 other buddies in the same situation to form the perfect team

Us mere mortals cant really compete

You make it sound easy...it isnt

 

[Sycho]

Never will happen since all three realms are totally unbalanced already so.

 

[Balbor]

its the old issue of

1. do you assist train melee them to death
2. do you assist train caster them to death

the same goes for

Assist MA + face(/stick if your a tank) + spam nuke/anystyle hit combo = win.

Dark age doesnt really require much skill when you think about it . Just need fast machine so you dont lag and the time and money for buffbot account + mls + artifacts +sc + knowing your class + 7 other buddies in the same situation to form the perfect team

Us mere mortals cant really compete

been saying that for ages
MA and spread heals RvR easyer and took away much of the skill. Mythic know this and have all but admited they got it wrong. The added the focus shield, Grapple and BG as was to try and fix MAing and have admitted that spread heals are so effective they have made single target ones almost redundent (mythic have admited this).

Mythic needs to turn off assissing against other player, so you will get a message like 'you cannot assist against that target). Will not effect PvE.

 

[Bunnytwo]

Mythic needs to turn off assissing against other player, so you will get a message like 'you cannot assist against that target). Will not effect PvE.

Yep agree /assist should be removed. Though would quite like it to be removed from the game completely TBH, useful but makes things a bit too clinical.

 

[protvanglad]

been saying that for ages
MA and spread heals RvR easyer and took away much of the skill. Mythic know this and have all but admited they got it wrong. The added the focus shield, Grapple and BG as was to try and fix MAing and have admitted that spread heals are so effective they have made single target ones almost redundent (mythic have admited this).

Mythic needs to turn off assissing against other player, so you will get a message like 'you cannot assist against that target). Will not effect PvE.

They should remove all CC spells (mezz, stun bla bla bla) to return the joy to the game i think.
The usual battle at the moment is stun-mezz, nuke to death. Is that fun?

 

[Falukropp]

Hehe, been this way all the time since release. Gonna be dark ages of castalot for ~4-5 patches now, then it's back to tankalot again. And then castalot, and so on :>

It's quite hard to balance a game like daoc, as some of the mechanics are quite binary. Abilities like stun, mezz etc and features like interrupting of ranged attacks, or the fact that a tank must reach the caster to be able to do anything works like a switch. Either it's on or it's off. There's nothing in between.

 

[dat_hibbie]

seems to me that to balance the realms we really need the exact same classes with the exact same RA's and how fun would that be?

Isnt part of the charm with this game to play the class/realm u want and work with the abilities u get? and casters and tanks can never become balanced :I

Thats what i think anyway, feel free to call me an idiot

 

[Saggy]

You dont find the balance by being "forced" to have number x tanks and number x casters in group. The balance is when group based on melee damage, group based on spell damage and group based on both can perform well. 1.65 with some RA/class tweaking would have been pretty damn close.

 

[Zapsi]

Yep agree /assist should be removed. Though would quite like it to be removed from the game completely TBH, useful but makes things a bit too clinical.

U just wanna zerg over all where 10 albs hit each enemy anyways so why care ?

Take your time moving to 1.71 please

 

[Balbor]

seems to me that to balance the realms we really need the exact same classes with the exact same RA's and how fun would that be?

Isnt part of the charm with this game to play the class/realm u want and work with the abilities u get? and casters and tanks can never become balanced :I

Thats what i think anyway, feel free to call me an idiot

um soon the game will have the exact same RA's along with the same artifacts and MLs, so all realms should have access to the same set of spells, untill they do that they will never get even close to sorting out game balance.

 

[Chimaira]

They are in the move to make all realms completely the same.

Atleast with the stupid expansions and RA´s

Removing FH from pala is zzz I like it in pve xD

 

[Ormorof]

They should remove all CC spells (mezz, stun bla bla bla) to return the joy to the game i think.
The usual battle at the moment is stun-mezz, nuke to death. Is that fun?

the rvr experience : you have been mezzed! you have been stunned! you have been killed!

it has been like this for ages though

 

[poisono]

You've got to admit how many times you've turned DAoC off because thier is a Ubah group going around going as you said Mez, Stun, Nuke Kill Destroy. Its who ever gets the stun off first wins the match near enough.

Plus with these + Spell duration going around its kind of annoying. Thooo *admits to having a + spell duration on me skald* Also the + Distance on spells etc.

Roll back to 1.48 or just as DF was Released please....... I really dislike ToA, as not all of us have 12hours a day to level up so and so ring. Then grab people and go to so and so to get a new hammer because the way resists have came around have changed... It kinda annoys me.

 

[Ormorof]

U just wanna zerg over all where 10 albs hit each enemy anyways so why care ?

zerg vs 1 person = dull (hello fg's steamrolling soloers )
zerg vs zerg = fun (hello 4fg vs 4fg fights where ae is the name of the game )

 

[Zapsi]

zerg vs 1 person = dull (hello fg's steamrolling soloers )
zerg vs zerg = fun (hello 4fg vs 4fg fights where ae is the name of the game )

Zerg V Zerg = boring ( hello seen then numbers of hibs )

Why didnt they make Football so who can get most in to the field wins :eek2:

And the gold medal goes to China

 

[Blackchaos]

lol

 

[Elendar]

please do remove /assist
it would make it even easier for the regular groups to win
if you have to use /assist it just slows you down, the best groups play together so much they hardly need to touch it to attack the same targets

strange how people who lose a lot think its just sh and ma, if that where the case, everyone would be equal because its so "simple"....

 

[Fadeh]

please do remove /assist
it would make it even easier for the regular groups to win
if you have to use /assist it just slows you down, the best groups play together so much they hardly need to touch it to attack the same targets

strange how people who lose a lot think its just sh and ma, if that where the case, everyone would be equal because its so "simple"....

It is simple. Ofc.. mids never had to use assist with all the savages etc..

Daoc is all about preparations... Nothing more.

 

[Frosen]

You've got to admit how many times you've turned DAoC off because thier is a Ubah group going around going as you said Mez, Stun, Nuke Kill Destroy. Its who ever gets the stun off first wins the match near enough.

Plus with these + Spell duration going around its kind of annoying. Thooo *admits to having a + spell duration on me skald* Also the + Distance on spells etc.

Roll back to 1.48 or just as DF was Released please....... I really dislike ToA, as not all of us have 12hours a day to level up so and so ring. Then grab people and go to so and so to get a new hammer because the way resists have came around have changed... It kinda annoys me.

Yes thats why albs rule cause they have ubah ae stunning classes :eek2:

 

[Darzil]

Why didnt they make Football so who can get most in to the field wins :eek2:
QUOTE]

If you're doing the football analogy, RR8+ is like premiership players, and RR1-3 is like conference players

Except that we play in the same league, so it's not so fun for the Conference players.



Darzil

 

[Ilum]

Why didnt they make Football so who can get most in to the field wins :eek2:
QUOTE]

If you're doing the football analogy, RR8+ is like premiership players, and RR1-3 is like conference players

Except that we play in the same league, so it's not so fun for the Conference players.



Darzil

It's not the RR that makes the big difference. The premiership is the ones that play with the same group a lot and has good equipment as well as being skilled. When NP came back to Prydwen they beat the RR10 groups with their ~~RR5 average grp.

 

[Rarr]

To go back to the basic question of balance between tanks and casters, I think casters are way overpowered and something needs to be done pronto. Here are my main reasons:

1) Casters can unleash a spell every 2 seconds that can do between 500 and 1000 damage, depending on ML, RA's and equipment
2) Tanks are lucky to do from between 200 to 500 damage per hit, big damage dealers needing 3 - 5 seconds to swing weapon
3) Casters have range advantage, and can in almost all circumstances get 2 -3 spells off before a tank gets near them (not to mention if they root, mezz etc) = 1500 - 3000 damage
4) Tanks need to get right next to caster in order to inflict damage, their most damaging styles often positional (when has a spell's damage been calculated on the position of target to caster?).

Don't even get me started on SM's. This is why 9/10 in rvr I find myself mezzed, stunned, nuked, dotted etc while unable to do anything, not exatly RVR at its most exciting (unless your a caster of course when Im sure its excellent fun )

Heres my resolution to problem: If a tank is supposed to be able to take big damage, let it. Increase the natural resist of plate and chain to magic attacks. Should help redress the balance

 

[Roadie]

if you removed assist it would only realy nerf casters, more specificaly casters who cant debuff their own dmg. Tanks can easily see who their ma is hitting on and can follow him about casters would have 2 w8 for some nukes 2 land b4 they see whos next. It would just benifit fgs who play with the same ppl all the time like elendar says.

1) Casters can unleash a spell every 2 seconds that can do between 500 and 1000 damage, depending on ML, RA's and equipment

If i nuke ppl on my sorc i only break 500dmg if i get a good crit or have my dmg debuffed. Against ppl with resists my nukes are obismal. ok sorc isnt a nuker i guess, my fire wiz nukes for 350-500 in fg-fg rvr unless debuffed for unless again i get a decent crit. If u dont like taking dmg from nukes then use a friar :S

2) Tanks are lucky to do from between 200 to 500 damage per hit, big damage dealers needing 3 - 5 seconds to swing weapon

So? your suggesting tanks should do the same dmg as casters?

3) Casters have range advantage, and can in almost all circumstances get 2 -3 spells off before a tank gets near them (not to mention if they root, mezz etc) = 1500 - 3000 damage

Tanks have det for mez and root, they can purge them as well for cheap. They also have alot of hit points to combat nukes, if they attack jump you they should win tbh if you jump them you should win. Unlike casters tanks can aford to take 1500 dmg also you can throw weps and use equipment to interupt. NF also gives you charge and purge on a lower timer to counter CC and get you fighting faster.

4) Tanks need to get right next to caster in order to inflict damage, their most damaging styles often positional (when has a spell's damage been calculated on the position of target to caster?).

ok you have to be close....but your dammage is uninteruptable so you can keep chugging along no matter whats going on around you unlike the caster you are undoubatably beating on. Whats wrong with positionals doing better dmg? casters have different spells for different situations you have different styles, whats wrong with that? the option to do better dmg if you perform a slightly harder style is good imo

As the most sucessfull groups seem to use both tanks and casters, and the top lwrp on the server was a tank i think its pretty balenced atm. I like the fact its casters who are doing the killing but if you ignore the possibality that tanks will come after you you will die to them.

 

[leviathane]

They should remove all CC spells (mezz, stun bla bla bla) to return the joy to the game i think.
The usual battle at the moment is stun-mezz, nuke to death. Is that fun?

and what delete the sorcerer class? Doubt many pppl would like that.

 

[Saggy]

Remove MAs from RvR, tweak some RAs/classes and change the interupt-system -> good playground for both tanks/casters ;o The more shit you add in game the harder it is to balance - I wouldn't be surprised if Blizzard manages to make WoW "perfectly" balanced because its far simplier than Daoc (yes, comparing to Classic Daoc, not to ToA/NF ).

Anyway, I would like to have the "interupt-system" be something like:
-The more you have people attacking you the slower you cast and the less damage/healing you deal (but you could still cast all the time).
-CC-spells wouldn't interupt at all -> no mezz/root/stun spamming.
-debuff-spells wouldn't interupt.
(erm, in other words you can only "interupt" by damage dealing Amnesia would still work as it does now).

By knowing this forum is in English with plenty of native English speakers I believe I've to quote myself to avoid replies such as "ololol m8? wadda about savage like 1shotting stuff lol?":

Remove MAs from RvR, tweak some RAs/classes and change the interupt-system -> good playground for both tanks/casters ;o

And:

By knowing this forum is in English with plenty of native English speakers I believe I've to quote myself to avoid replies such as "ololol m8? wadda about savage like 1shotting stuff lol?

Am I safe now? No offence meant to anyone and yes, there is probably tons of grammar/spelling mistakes in this post, that wasn't the point though

 

[Aldrick]

please do remove /assist
it would make it even easier for the regular groups to win
if you have to use /assist it just slows you down, the best groups play together so much they hardly need to touch it to attack the same targets

strange how people who lose a lot think its just sh and ma, if that where the case, everyone would be equal because its so "simple"....

I never use any assist macro on my BD, it all comes down to picking good targets and when ppl play together alot u will eventually choose the same targets if they are good targets. So for me its fine to remove assistkey, would only make it easier

 

[Zebolt]

please do remove /assist
it would make it even easier for the regular groups to win
if you have to use /assist it just slows you down, the best groups play together so much they hardly need to touch it to attack the same targets

strange how people who lose a lot think its just sh and ma, if that where the case, everyone would be equal because its so "simple"....

I think caster wise this is not a problem anymore since most "good grps" don't assist, but the regular grps do so regular grps wouldn't be worse against another regular grp.

Looks like more and more tanks are quiting it too, interupt > all.. :>

 

[Oldfaravid]

i+ knowing your class

Tought this part was part 1 of skill... and you say it takes no skill.. dont write up knowing your class then... now go figure out part 2..