Bacc

[Job]

Or the new English Baccalaureate.
What the fuck are these clueless out of touch morons who run our education system doing?
How utterly, utterly irrelevant for the modern world, spelling, grammar, maths in fact all 'personal' fact based learning is reaching the end of it's usefulness.

We need to concentrate on the greatest strength of the human mind..creativity..and stop grinding it to a halt with tedious shit that a stopwatch chip could beat us at.
Spelling is my favuright, in years to come spelling mistakes will be held in high esteem, much as hand made products are now..'holy shit, he wrote this himself!'
We could rule the world all over again with our imagination, but apparently employers want drones who can spell and do math.

 

[Wij]

Well. Yes, they do.

 

[gunner440]

you mean its usefulness

 

[Wazzerphuk]

Greatest strength of the human mind is creativity? Not logical intelligence?

 

[dysfunction]

How can maths not be relevant??

How do you engineer things if you can't perform any calculations??

 

[Krazeh]

I'm not sure how spelling or grammar can not be relevant either. People need to be able to communicate in a written form effectively. Not being able to spell or use grammar properly doesn't allow you to do that. In a world where more and more interaction takes place in a written form spelling and grammar are as important as ever.

 

[kirennia]

I both agree and disagree.

I agree that 'personal' fact based learning is pretty pointless in any scope, except in order to demonstrate the ability to do so... for example does it really matter if you can't remember dates that certain events happened on? So long as you know how to look them up, I see no problem in this.

However math, spelling and grammar are very important. What with the new age of communication where a lot of encounters in decent sized businesses are completed via the internet, it's a very good to way to demonstrate professionalism. Communication is more important then ever. As for math, it demonstrates an abstract for logical thinking which really is important for computer use... which just so happens to be what nigh on all professionals are required to work with. If you can't do basic math, you have less logical thought processing abilities then someone who can. Sure you can argue that calculators are readily avaliable but unless you have at least a basic understanding of math, you have no idea whether the figures entered are yielding the correct result... and even that is kind of besides the point with math...


As for the drone comment, I again can't agree more. Even primary school teachers are being inundated with crappy red tape during every single lesson they have to do. There is no creativity at primary thus, there will be no creativity at secondary school and beyond. It's absolutely appauling. Having tests every single year which dictate teachers progress as well as budgets will lead to either teachers lying about the kids grades or to give them perhaps more information about tests then they should do. Know a piece of communicative prose is coming up? Just teach your kids the tricks for that and ignore teaching them actually how to think when writing...Ultimately tests are marked via guidelines which are very easy to manipulate if you have prior knowledge as to what the guides are.

 

[old.Tohtori]

When has schooling ever been anything BUT drone production?

As far as i can remember, there's been only one answer to that f*cking train meet-up.

 

[Vae]

One of my biggest bugbears with my colleagues is that their spelling and grammar are not up to a similar standard as my own. I can handle their maths skills being slightly weaker if not needed in their job but in most jobs you have to be able to communicate in written form. It sounds very unprofessional as a company when the grammar is poor (Spelling can be spellchecked but only as long as it realises which word you are trying to spell!) in a letter or email.

Certainly as an employer the main skills I'm looking for in general are:
An ability to think/reason (and willingness to do so) and learn
Good written and verbal communication skills
Ability to work comfortably with numbers and spreadsheets (many roles now require at least some familiarity with the ubiquitous Excel)
Ability to work comfortably with a computer

 

[gunner440]

good job, job

 

[Ormorof]

yeah i think they need to concentrate more on maths, science and english instead of artsy subjects

why the hell should kids be forced to paint, if they enjoy it great let them do it but if not why?! (can you tell i hated art in school? spent every monday in detention because my artwork was not "up to scratch" was a joke!)

 

[old.Tohtori]

(can you tell i hated art in school? spent every monday in detention because my artwork was not "up to scratch" was a joke!)

Try this on for size;

I got detention for finishing my english book in the first weekend.

So i completed everything that semester had in store, correctly i might add, and got punished for it

 

[Job]

They are irrelevant because they can be performed with infinitely greater speed and accuracy by computing databases, these abilities are now starting to become avaliable in a way that they can start to take over us bothering to learn them, it's early days but we are on the brink and we need to run with it rather than hide behind ancient concepts of knowledge.
If you asked a guy to come around and drill a hole in your house,you would be most surprised to see him turn up with hand drill, if his reply was that he can't rely on electric drills because the electricity might fail would seem idiotic, but that's where we are with learning.

Our creativity is all that we will have left after algorithms shoot past our abilities, only the human will be able to imagine what he wants and command
the enormous resources of computing to realise it, and who needs to know how it works? Who needs to know how their arm works when they perform a task?

 

[Thorwyn]

Two thoughts...

1. Do you think it´s possible to program a computer without a profound understanding of math?

2. Do you think that it´s possible to "learn" to be creative? And on a related note: isn´t creativity the ability to combine known stuff and form something new out of it?

 

[old.Tohtori]

I think you can learn a bit in creativity, though if you lack it completely, it's going to be a chore. Not impossible, and it's not going to be very creative as it stems from teaching, but still.

Advancing creativity with outside creativity is ofcourse what we do almost daily(how many game ideas did you have today Thor ).

 

[Thorwyn]

Not too many actually. Trying to find a producer for the existing ones at the moment.

 

[old.Tohtori]

The usual persons answer is none

I was wondering about a coffee machine game earlier, watching coffee drip is so exciting.

 

[tierk]

As an employer, i ahve to say that i have found the level of written English to be very disappointing over the years.

It was pretty dire when i was in London, especially the younger generation - fuck me i sound like an old fart.

I knwo that we have spell checkers and grammer tools etc but you still need a decent level of writing skills.

Maths, as much as you say it is irrelevant or becoming more so, still much needed for a lot of vocations and cannot be just dumped.

The way that things are taught might need to be upgraded and changed to reflect all the technological advances we have made in the last twenty years.

However, i suspect that it would be very hard to keep changing the education system to keep pace with advances in science & technology.

 

[Cerb]

"I" . :kissit:

 

[Job]

Two thoughts...

1. Do you think it´s possible to program a computer without a profound understanding of math?

2. Do you think that it´s possible to "learn" to be creative? And on a related note: isn´t creativity the ability to combine known stuff and form something new out of it?

1:Yes, everything will be WYSIWYG, leave the tedious maths to computers.

2:You don't need to have it in your own brain, that just holds you back.

 

[Krazeh]

1:Yes, everything will be WYSIWYG, leave the tedious maths to computers.

And where are these WYSIWYG interfaces/editors going to come from?

 

[Job]

From other people using WYSIWYG to create them.
It's pointless going over the same thing just to satisfy some notion of 'cleverness'.

 

[Krazeh]

From other people using WYSIWYG to create them.
It's pointless going over the same thing just to satisfy some notion of 'cleverness'.

So this first super-powerful WYSIWYG interface/editor that can apparently create any other sort of program anyone may ever need just pops out of nowhere then?

 

[Job]

No they will evolve, much as life does into more complicated versions.

My wife has a really cool website for her running group, she has no idea whatsoever about html, doesn't know how anything technical works, but has created using Yola something that is very presentable and is in fact the end game that we want, the technology is irrelevant.
My phone has an app that calculates written mathematical equations, completely useless, but in every respect totally sidesteps the need to understand anything but the answer.
I need to know the 'rules' of a process about as much as I need to understand the algorithms running in my GFX card while I'm using it to create a 3D game.

 

[Krazeh]

No they will evolve, much as life does into more complicated versions.

My wife has a really cool website for her running group, she has no idea whatsoever about html, doesn't know how anything technical works, but has created using Yola something that is very presentable and is in fact the end game that we want, the technology is irrelevant.
My phone has an app that calculates written mathematical equations, completely useless, but in every respect totally sidesteps the need to understand anything but the answer.
I need to know the 'rules' of a process about as much as I need to understand the algorithms running in my GFX card while I'm using it to create a 3D game.

Right, so because you're happy to live in a world where you're ignorant of how things operate everyone else should be? We should just teach kids how to point and click rather than teach them how things actually work? I'm sure plenty of scientific breakthroughs would be made by people who have no understanding of maths because teaching them maths was deemed pointless when they had a phone app that could add up for them. And what happens in this wonderful world of yours when something breaks and noone knows how anything works because it was 'unimportant' to teach them?

 

[Raven]

I can't stand poorly constructed emails or letters. So many people lack the basic skills to write letters, it's ridiculous. A spell checker will only go so far. Maths is also important, sure you can use excel or a calculator but that does not help you tot things up in your head...which is essential in many jobs.

 

[Thorwyn]

My phone has an app that calculates written mathematical equations, completely useless, but in every respect totally sidesteps the need to understand anything but the answer.

Problem is: if you don´t have a clue about math, you won´t even understand the question, let alone the answer. Or the other way round: if you want to understand what the machine tells you, you need to know what the machine is talking about.

I need to know the 'rules' of a process about as much as I need to understand the algorithms running in my GFX card while I'm using it to create a 3D game. Today 04:41 PM

The fact that the front-end user doesn´t need to know about the process doesn´t mean that noone should. If nobody knows about the process, technology will stagnate because technology is unable to make evolutionary progress on it´s own.

Maybe in 50 years or so, your approach will be right (although I still doubt it). At the moment, I´d say it´s way too early for such a change.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Take games for an example of how this could go wrong;

FPS back in the day, doom, duke nukem, tribes.

All those games had people behind them that knew the basics of games, knew how things work and how they could be used to bring more joy to the player. They used creativity to form enw ideas, hours of work(months...years...) to create new code and new ways to get everything out of the game. New concepts, new experiences. Especially in the start and even after that to better the genre into new heights.

Now 20 years later(or so ish), all the basic elements of FPS gsmes are "common knowledge". Unreal engine does half the work, physics are implemented with a click. You could probably make an FPS game in your own home, on your computer, without touching one letter in the code. And most likely it could, if done well enough(or even not), rival modern FPS games as an equal to a multimillion dollar experience.

And look at the FPS evolutuon these days. Especially after Halo and BAttlefield 1942...

Yeah, thought you might reach the same conclusion

 

[Vae]

The thing is that learning Maths isn't just about learning how to do differential equations or whatever. It's about learning a thought process and way of thinking.

If anything I think there should be more focus on Maths and Science. Same for basic English as these are the skills on which all others are based. I'm firmly of the opinion that 3 R's should be the first and main subject taught until there is sufficient ability to move onto other academic subjects.

Thorwyn is entirely correct that although a computer can solve an equation, how do you even begin to frame the question or realise what the answer means unless you actually understand it all. I don't see human evolution ever getting to a stage where these skills aren't important and tbpfh I despair of people who see no value in them as it seems a lot more people do today.

I recently had a discussion with my German tutor at work. He was of the opinion that people are getting smarter (and this is coming from a mid 50's guy) and I entirely disagree. Intelligence is changing. People now are better at some skills like sifting through information to discern what is relevent and not, mainly due to the Internet and the wide availability of information. However there are other skills that are being lost particularly in language especially spelling due to laziness.

One very good interview question we've been using at work is to ask people what 20% of 80 is. The number of people that can't answer this, don't bother to put any thought in and even refuse to try is astounding. I would expect to see at least some thought process behind some of the answers given but when you get answers like -5 I do wonder!

Looking at examples of literature or political speechs over time I feel depressed that there is little in the modern world that lives up to that which has gone before. As a easy example look at Churchill and his speeches. Compare that to modern politicians and there is no comparison.

 

[Job]

My point exactly, you don't need to understand maths, and if everything collapsed you'd have a much bigger problem than people not knowing the basics.
It wouldn't be point and click, it would release us to create far,far greater things at a much faster pace.
The present system is like teaching an artist how paints are made, maybe some do learn it, but it's utterly irrelevant.
Grammer is just snobbery, with it's roots in the upper class Latin circus.
Spelling is just convention, there is no PROPER way to spell anything.