Assassins and Keep raids

[Brannor McThife]

Ok, had a little situation last night whereone of our SBs quit the raid because nobody responded to his calls for a rez. Whether he waited long enough for a response is not really relevant, as I know he was not assisted for about 1 minute. However, do know, that I dragged Twiz around the keep earlier to sweep for dead SBs and rez them.

The SB did mention one thing, something like this "Why don't they buff us who are actually fighting the Albs rather than those bashing the doors?".

Well, there's an interesting discussion. I've played an assassin into his 40s, and I know the frustration that comes with it. I see a LOT of this:

- Assassin goes to where there is a keep in progress
- Assassin doesn't ask for a group.
- Assassin tries to start killing people inside.
- Assassin get badly hurt or killed.
- Assassin then starts asking for a rez.
- Assassin then asks for buffs.

Now, this is what I used to go through, a lot.

Fact is, it's a team game. The shammy/healer will buff his group. If you are not grouped, don't expect buffs. You/me the assassin may get RPs for our work on the walls, the door bashers do not. But unless you have a ninja group, those doors still have to come down and people there will need buffs to live longer.

My view:
- Assassins should group. Earn those buffs/rezzes by sharing your RPs.
- Healers (healer types), keep your SBs alive and you'll get those RPs roling in. A fully buffed assassin is a killing machine.
- Shield Tanks, guard an assassin and know where he's going to strike and run to. You an stop a good few arrows from hitting him.
- Nukers/shammies, nuke/DoT the area around the climb point.
- Assassins, kill the enemy healers/nukers, stop with the fekking shadow war.

As you can see, I'm pretty impartial, as I'm just an RP cow.

-G

 

[old.Arnor]

Yeah, what he said. Twice!

 

[Whandall]

Well i got another point of view as im playing a nightshade in the low 40s and always searching groups.
Of course there are groups sometimes but here are examples of the worst things that already happened(and nearly got me to quit)

At frontier gates:
Shade asks for group - no response
Shade keeps asking ppl for groups after another 5 mins of waiting - no response
Groups leaving gates to emain etc
Shade wents out alone just to get killed by a small group of lvl 50 enemys which the fgs that just left dont care about


At a keepraid:
Shade asks for group - no response
Shade asks again - no response
Shade dead after trying to kill some defenders - /release

In innis:
/y shade lvl 4x lfg
4hours later - /q

I really can understand stalkers that refuse to group sometimes.

In PvM ppl still want to form up the "perfect" exp group and stalker classes are not very welcomend there

In RvR ppl also look at the classes more and more to get the best amount of rps....of course you dont need stalkers for that.

Of course not all ppl completely ignore stalkers when forming up groups but i fear the amount of them increases

 

[Flimgoblin]

the amount of stealthers is increasing ... which probably is taking it's toll on the groups that don't mind inviting them

Hey - take a nightshade, take a ranger too... but 7 of them?

 

[Generic Poster]

I've got an inf in the early 40's... and I only go for RvR when I know some guildees out there who can group me. Else, finding a group does kind of suck.

The only problem with grouping is, if someone in your group has been fighting, you cannot stealth until 10secs or so later. But that's worth the RP-leeching you can do


I hate that in the game, you spend 50 levels and whole days of playing-time to get there... only to do the same thing all over in RvR. First everyone wants maximum XP, now it's max-RPs. This imo, is a fault in the game, it brings out the selfish-tit in most people which hardly makes a sociable on-line experience.


When it comes down to it... you need to know people and form friends to get any where in RvR.

 

[lairiodd]

The only problem with grouping is, if someone in your group has been fighting, you cannot stealth until 10secs or so later. But that's worth the RP-leeching you can do

That is not true .... the stealth timer is only activated if you attack someone. In fact sometimes if the person is out of range (like when you try to perf a moving target and they inconvieniently change direction at the last minute) if you quickly f6 you can restealth without having to wait.

Having said that if you actually participate in the fight then you have to wait of course. Though im normally stealthed scouting and trying to stay in rps range . ( or more normally at the moment playing my alt )

 

[Freia]

I always try to heal little smurfs that come flying down from the battlements.
Not counting rezzes thats probably where like 50% of my power goes to on keepraids, rest is stun guardpops/ppl on battlements and random heals all over the place. Not much else to do, keepdoors aren't known to fear my staff particulary much.

Anyway, best way to make sure to get ressed quickly is to get in a group or atleast a chatgroup. If you are in a group, chances are pretty big you will even get assisted by your local healer so you can stay up on the battlements longer and sometimes we may even be able to stun your enemies, chances increase even more if you tell in groupchat when/where you are gonna climb (but that is extremely rare).
I usually run between climbspots and/or target the shadowblades using the miniwindow and do /face (i really should have a /face macro but it wont fit on the quickbar ).

 

[Noche]

Ns LFG... /looks around, nobody bother to answer

5 min later... moves alone with a ranger or another NS to have more protection while moving to emain.

While in emain, all u hear in CG´s "need some scout (in hib´s case NS) at amg/mmg and to scout, blah blah" Do they realize that we got 0 rp scouting? And if we die trying to pick loners, we´ll got flamed "find a grp" crap.

Of course I try always find a grp (tnx goddess hibs at exc r quite having NSs in grp) while siege a keep, or I´ll just get in to "scout" and get down, why risk a death when ppl don´t wanna help u?

Those SBs r there to kill target others can´t kill, I´m more than happy if mids won´t rez their SBs

Btw, I agree 100% with wot Brannor said (his view) though guard is a bit hard

 

[Brannor McThife]

If I know where the SB in my group is going to be climbing and fighting, I can stand at the bottom of the climb point with him guarded. He/she then doesn't have to try run away afterward with archers shooting at him, he can simply drop to the base of the climb point and rest while I block every single arrow. Ask Twiz, "the aggro magnet" healer.

-G

 

[old.Trine Aquavit]

Good point about the buffs. A lot of healers (myself included) will have got pretty used to a buffing routine in PvE (i.e PoX for casters, full buff for main tanks, attack speed for melee, etc), which isn't necessarily what's most effective in PvP. Buffing is always pretty tedious so that can mean you put your brain into second gear when you do it. In PvP stealthers probably should get higher priority on buffs. I'll try and change my ways, but that won't extend to any significant buffing outside my group (I only get 16 buffs, after all).

One other thing: it would be a good idea for stealthers to let their group healer know where they are going, if poss. There's nothing more frustrating that watching that health bar going down and getting that target is too far away message when you try to heal. A bit of communication can really help.

 

[nobrot]

Excelent thread, and agree 100% with Brannor... rogues do find it generaly hard to get a group, thats true. Asking fellow stealthers about grouping I often get the responce that SB's dont normaly need to group.. and perhaps in an undefended keep raid this is true.. but in a raid on a keep that is defended the stealthers are absolutely key to a successfull raid. IMO if an SB or two joins a group that has a healer and a skald then the SB's within that group have a much higher chance of survival and will also share some of the RP's they make from wacking defenders, and with skald speed (so long as you keep in range) your chances of getting out of the keep alive are much better.

Another point tho, I have spent lots of time chewing the toes of keep defenders, because I wasnt fast enough to realise that its time to stop jabbing the robe wearing caster and jump for your life.. my rule now is that once I am at 50% health its time to escape, get a heal and come back again... even if my target only has 10% health left, if your lucky your poison will get him anyway...

I may be wrong, as I am relatively new... its what I have learned from "limited" experience.

 

[rynnor]

As my shaman in BG I will attempt to res anyone who is not in a situation that would be pure suicide for me (and sometimes even them) - I do prioritise other ressers before the rest but after that I'll res anyone - we are all on the same side

Its unfortunate that assasin classes can get to places where ressing can be difficult/impossible (i.e. inside the keep when we are still outside bashing on doors).

I'll also group with any class and try to get a full group as its a lot easier to monitor the mini group healthbars in the chaos of combat - otherwise ill spam F9 if no-one in group needs a heal or ill rove around looking for the injured.

Buffing - ok i predominantly buff my group but I usually have spare and try to use all my buffs/conc at all times - its not like you can save em up.

Only problem with buffing stealthers is getting em to keep in range/unstealthed long enough

Again in the chaos of battle I wouldnt use the chat group for res requests - send a pm direct to a healer/shammy for better results and please include some description of where u are

Despite our sucess last night there were a couple of occasions where I saw a person die who then spammed the cg about a millisecond later

 

[Freia]

Originally posted by old.Trine Aquavit There's nothing more frustrating that watching that health bar going down and getting that target is too far away message when you try to heal. A bit of communication can really help.

/face range > heal range


But yes, communication helps alot, but there isnt always time.

 

[Danya]

Originally posted by lairiodd
That is not true .... the stealth timer is only activated if you attack someone. In fact sometimes if the person is out of range (like when you try to perf a moving target and they inconvieniently change direction at the last minute) if you quickly f6 you can restealth without having to wait.

Dunno if this affects stealth but if someone in my group fires a pbae insta I loose speed even if I'm nowhere near the fighting. Very annoying when running towards a fight and the cleric uses his pbae and we all slow down.

 

[Ottar]

> A lot of healers (myself included) will have got pretty
> used to a buffing routine in PvE … which isn't necessarily
> what's most effective in PvP.

Aye.. optimal buffs in PvE and PvP are different. Just a few bits:

Im a skald. Almost every single time a healer buffs me, he/she starts with PoX. Please don’t! PoX is high conc cost and conc is precious, don’t waste it.

PoX for a skald in PvE is the best buff there is.

PoX for a skald in RvR is wasted 999 times out of 1000. And thats no exageration.

Also, do not use AF buffs on people wearing epic armor. In current version, epic armor caps our AF anyhow. AF buffs on people wearing epic armors are waste of conc. They fix it in next version, so that AF buffs will go over the cap.

Combat haste buffs are nice if you have spare conc, that is if people dont lack stat buffs because it. However, there is ONE context where combat haste is very good - melee hacking at keep doors.

Ottar

 

[Dook_Pug]

I agree in many ways but there are many reasons events went as they did last night at Arvakr.

It's been a major habit lately for the legions of 50 SBs we have to group with other rogue classes and ignore any other class type that won't help them with their cause. Or to go solo and find a nice comfortable spot in a cg.

I'm not saying this is wrong and I'm not saying I wouldn't do it if I was a 50 Rogue class but if that's the way you choose to play, then you have to realise you're not gonna be top priority to a Healer who also has their own full group to look after. Be it with buffs, rezzes or general maintenance such as Healing, Friggs etc etc.

The way DAoC works (supposedly anyway) is that you group to get the best attributes from as many classes as possible and to use those skills for the benefit of everyone in the group and from a larger perspective, the realm. It doesn't seem to be happening that way in the case of alot of Midgards rogue classes atm.

Again, I'm not saying it's wrong, but alot of potential is being lost.

 

[old.Arctic]

people whining about not getting groups and says they waited 5 min-60 mins. with my wizard i waited 4 days and not get a group, waiting in line for bloody treegroups. and i played a wizard in the forgotten realm of albion were there is mainly a population of dicks. well it is fun to solo at lvl 45+ .... not that hard really. soloed orange/red moorliches, but it is a high death kill ratio. well if you whine about some mins then you should not be getting a group in the first place, remember some wait alot longer. this has happend ALOT when i took a break from daoc and come back when every n00b in the realm had lvled up to 40 and beond.... lost the point somewhere.... :/ ....



aahh

 

[Flimgoblin]

Nah arctic didn't get a group coz he's a gimpy fire wiz

*ducks*

 

[old.Odysseus]

Before 1.50 I would often get group invites in RvR - even without asking or wanting.
Now? Never.

Tells u a bit about why ppl wanted me in group back then.

 

[Javai]

Can group with me anytime Ody, I never invite you cos I just assumed you were always grouped. Come hide behind my large shield whenever you like

 

[Flimgoblin]

does everyone throw the 'lfg' flag out the window when they hit RvR? noone ever seems to use it - just yell at the PK...

 

[old.Xarr]

Many paranoid people like to go anon when just casually emaining so they're gonna have a problem with the lfg flag. I myself haven't used the flag in rvr yet, I find /yelling alot more fun

 

[old.Arctic]

Originally posted by Fingoniel
Nah arctic didn't get a group coz he's a gimpy fire wiz

*ducks*

hehe, yeah. it must be something like that.....
well welll, i am happy with my pygme midget gimp chanter atm..



aah

 

[Flimgoblin]

Originally posted by old.Xarr
Many paranoid people like to go anon when just casually emaining so they're gonna have a problem with the lfg flag. I myself haven't used the flag in rvr yet, I find /yelling alot more fun

lfg works whilst /anon

but I guess if they're paranoid they won't want anyone finding them out there with the 'find' button...

 

[Quasimoto]

Originally posted by old.Odysseus
Tells u a bit about why ppl wanted me in group back then. [/B]

yeh,, archers could scout b4.... now they just get killed if they try

 

[Mikal]

I must say I agree totally with Brannor, when it comes to buffs in rvr my priority is like this

myself, group, everyone else

there's a few exceptions, if I'm in a big and wellworking group I'll happily remove most of my own less necessary buffs to a healer (str, dam add, attack speed, etc)to give the group extra. And I'll also sometimes remove less necessary buffs in my group to give a shaman/caster outside the group a pox, that one make such a difference to those guys.

on another note, I will happily take any good SB or hunter into my group if we need them (wont overdue it with 6 SB's if there's tanks or casters to get, simple group balancing, plus it's boring being in a group where you never see people), those guys can be really helpfull, taking out sneaky casters and the like in standoffs or other big fights, and I have yet to see a group that didn't want at least one stealther in a rvr-group.

oh, and thanks for the tip with skalds and pox in rvr, I didn't know that

 

[listepik]

regarding getting groups in general.

i know its a bit late for it, when you are Emain Material (high level), but it all comes down to how you played in the levels 5-30.

the only way to really get groups in those levels, is to make em yourself. Be active, outgoing, and fun to be around. this will make people remember your name later on.

if you didnt do that, nobody knows you, and thus, everyone will invite a friend over you, no matter the class.
other classes may have it a bit easier with this, since Tanks, Healers and such are always needed in PvE, and therefore allways grouped. you are not. so you have to fight for it.

Being a stealther, is no easy thing. you are among the most deadly, but also among the weakest. you are among the most useful, but also very expendable in a group.

Make yourself known early on. Create a Reputation, as a resourceful player, who knows how to play the char well, and you _will_ get groups.

---

regarding the rez:
when attacking a defended keep, assassins gets 90% of all the kills. if you dont share the RPs, dont expect rez, buff, heal, etc. Its the way you chose to play, that defines you. Solo = no help. Group = heaps of help (unless, of course, your group is a bunch of tossers, in which case, youre doomed )

 

[Olgark]

As a hunter in RvR people have the same attitude to us as they do in PvE. So its just as hard to get a group. So sometimes we have to solo and kill them healers and nukers that are killing off our healers.

The only chance i can garantee i get a group is if I go with the guild. Other than that I am solo 90% of the time picking off the stragglers in the zerg.

This eliteism of classes has to stop if Midgard as a realm or any realm is going to be sucsseful in RvR. The tanks and casters shun stealthers all through leveling and when we hit the frontiers they do the same. When solo I never expect a rez or a heal, but if one comes my way then I am grateful of it.

Most of the time its not the fault of the stealther that he does not have a group, it is the fault of the other classes that have made us to dependant on ourselves.