Assassin Balance Suggestions

[Aeiedil]

From a thread which I have to repost on VN boards when I can be bothered to re-write with all data (read : ovequoted patch notes etc), comments please (the thread was locked for lack of data)

-> NOTE : This is based on 1.62 <-

VN Thread 1 : Topic: Comprehensive comparison: Infiltrator, Nightshade, and Shadowblade.
VN Thread 2 (my thread) : Topic: Changes to the Assassins (semi-lengthy)

while i would love to see infs sbs and ns's on an even playing field i feel it is hard to do whilst keeping the realms in some kind of balance.

changes i personally would make

1 : NS : minor boost to the NS magic line, possibly some sort of body debuff to the shout and cold debuff to the cast dd, thus allowing dding to do more damage after the first cast, and the shout to assist the poision
-> NOTE
***THE DEBUFF COMPONENT SHOULD NOT BE HIGHER THAN THE SPEC DEBUFF COMPONENTS OF DEBUFF-DD's OF MAGES, this is important***
the cast dd change i suggest to aid ns groupability. it would allow them to debuff cold damage in a siege, making trechebuet cold stones, and of course gtaoe/void hit harder. the void would also hit harder in pve if the ns dd cold debuffed (my ns frequently pulls) and so would aid (in a minute way) with ns/voidie grouping, in addition to making the dd slightly (though not much) more viable in combat.
the shotu dd change i suggest to allow them to help their poision damage, in line with their poision speciality (reinforced by special ra's). this should be made at the same time as the removal of avoid pain.

if wanted i will draw up my prefered nightshade magic line (with the debuffs added). nightshade dd damgae shoudl NOT be reduced, it is at a right level already, the debuff would not unbalance it
->

2 : SB : change of the shadowblade la calculation (if possible) to allow the same chances to double-hit and smae damage per hand calcuolations as the other realms, thus not gimping dual-wielding sb's that dont spec high in LA. i would however leave the styles as is rather than make a whole new spec line. i dont know how possible this is though, single line respec given to sbs with LA

3 : SB : modification of one of the axe or sword styles to have a diamondback-equivilant stun at 25, no respec given (not nerf)
-> NOTE
by the way, the style change i would ask for

Axe 21 : Valkries shield. change from block reactionary to evade reactionary (SB only), and change to have a Diamondback-length stun component.

Axe 39 : remove the stun component (SB only) and add either a medium-long bleed, or increase the damage bonus on it to high
->

4 : NS : removal of Avoid Pain from the ns ra list, respecs given to ns's with avoid pain (realm only)
->NOTE
this was probably given to ns to make up for lower hp inherant in the class. as a whole the unlocking of celt shades made this unnessecary in my opinion. i realise this will leave elves and keens with lower hp and defence, and it will leave ns on average with lower hp, however it is my opinion that the ns is not so much there for hardiness as for their speciality in poision, hence WA and Viper
->

5 : ALL : either toning down of infs spec points to around 2.3x-2.35x or so, or increase of NS/SB spec points to about 2.35x-4x. preferably the reduction to infs (with a full respec for infs), or if thats not possible then the increase to ns/sb (no respec)
->NOTE
i dont think that points will be removed from the inf because it will mean every inf having to respec and respellcraft, however i am worried that if, then, the spec points for assassins SB/NS are raised that they will become to powerful in comparision. it is indeed a hard juggling act, and sometime when i have more time ill play with numbers to try to find where a "fair" place to put each spec level at would be assuming infs stay with 2.5x. if the other changes are made (esp the ns magic change) i would suggest that INF have most spec points, SB have second most, and NS have least.
->

6 : SB : modification of the SB unique ra shadowrun. open to suggestions, perhaps something to help with 2h-crits, or maybe beefing up shadowrun to last longer or something. i think the most likely path taken if this is done is that shadowrun will be made to have a longer duration and/or shorter timer and/or lower cost
-> NOTE
I would suggest duration raised to 1 minute on a 10-15 minute timer and/or cost lowered to around 6-8 points.
->

thats about it as far as im concerned atm i think

 

[k9awya]

sounds great!

 

[Aeiedil]

i've already sent it via a feedback once to mythic, will send in the second version when ive done it cause it will have more justification than at present

 

[Tasans]

Changes to existing weapons speclines are not going to happen.
Imagine all those warriors and thanes, getting 1 of the style chains they use most (valkyries shield) impossible to pull off because it needs an evade.

 

[Gahldir]

Originally posted by Tasans
Changes to existing weapons speclines are not going to happen.
Imagine all those warriors and thanes, getting 1 of the style chains they use most (valkyries shield) impossible to pull off because it needs an evade.

Axe 21 : Valkries shield. change from block reactionary to evade reactionary (SB only), and change to have a Diamondback-length stun component.

 

[wrathofsauron]

Bah!

Remove all stealther classes from the game they are useless anyways.

I mean nobody wanna xp with them, nobody wanna grp with them in emain and all they do is whine who is most owerpowered in their 1v1 duels.

I'm a great problem solver

 

[belth]

Remove LA, DW, CD, regular weaponspecs from assassins. Instead, give us "Critical Strike"-type weapons which are always based on Str/Dex, with all damage-types available. Give SBs a selection of slower versions (5.0-5.5 spd?) in addition of the ones NS/Infil can use. Totally revamp CS-spec due to changes

Make dualwielding have no styles, just increased chance and increased +to-hit.

Make stealth level-based, eg. remove the spec and drop every assassin to 2.0x spec-points and give infils something to bring them apart from SB/NS.

Something to mull over and bring all the assassins closer to each other, although there'd need to be more than NS-magic, SB-big-hits/+hp and inf-something to deviate everyone from each other. Maybe give NS spec-line spells for their magic, SBs a spec-line that increases their damage by a certain % or something and something for the infil.

Never happen. What Wrathofsauron sounds good too tbh. Give all longtime (70d+ played ) assassins 3x lvl50's of their choice with 10p and MP armor sets on them to "pay back the loss" though Rest, 1x lvl50 of their choice with the assassins items only

 

[Aeiedil]

Originally posted by Tasans
Changes to existing weapons speclines are not going to happen.
Imagine all those warriors and thanes, getting 1 of the style chains they use most (valkyries shield) impossible to pull off because it needs an evade.

they have shown they can change spec lines for different classes. i only suggested the change for the SB, other axe lines should be left as is, or rather its no plae for me to comment

wrathofcupcakes, go back to your hole

belth your suggestions i think are to drastic at this stage of the game my suggestions are not on the whole devestating changes, however i think the 6 tweaks would bring them closer to a balance against each other, however balance with the "universal balance" is harder to achieve i just want the 3 assassins equal in ability but different in method (if such a thing is possible which i doubt)

 

[old.LandShark]

Seriously, body resist debuff = you have to be kidding me.
Obviously not the biggest of deals 1v1, but NS's can and do group, at which point a body resist debuff is teh nasty.

 

[Aeiedil]

wasnt after a huge body debuff perhaps in the region of level/5 equivilant, level/2.5 for the dd (10% body 20% cold at 50 for shout and cast respectivley, due to the cast dd being used less)

i wasnt aware at any rate that many hib classes did body damage

Assassin Poision for sure
Animist : Aborial (Spec only)
ok all animist other than Aborial base, Verdant spec.
Champion shouts (apart from snare)
Enchanter Damage Add
Bard Music spells
Druid Nature base root + spec dot
Warden Damage Add

dont think i missed anything

 

[old.LandShark]

Well, 20% cold debuff for voidies/lighties then? Even assuming that one guy single-targetting debuffing your CC resist isn't a big deal, 20% is a big boost to a 400dmg nuke...

 

[Aeiedil]

ok fair enough

as i said i havent done the numbers yet, will work on them when i get a minute just give me a chance

edit : how many times have you seen an assassin stop to debuff?

the debuff would only last about 5 seconds anyway i reckon on the cast dd and have no resist timer, so that the shade can cast and debuff for the next dd only. in that way the effect for voidies would need shades constantly dd'ing at the same time rather than dd'ing and running im not totally sure of the specifics yet

the body debuff would last for around 25 seconds on the same principles, or maybe 20

 

[old.LandShark]

It just seems pointless to me to put in spells/abilities that either have to be so crap as to be laughable (debuff with a 5sec duration - what, 2 nukes?) in order to avoid being overpowered as f00k...
Why not ask for a reduction in the cost of viper, or removal of the AugAcuity prereq on Wild Arcana, instead? Or a dmg boost on, forgive me if I've got my styles wrong, fire blade so that it's comparable to amethyst slash? I dunno, I don't much care either. Individual assassin balance changes are absolutely besides the point when stealth is 100% effective if you're standing on top of 6 friends - beyond sheer personal choice there's no damn reason for the wannabe assassin zerg not to stealthgroup.
Oh, and also, nerf druid haste conc buff please... Same goes for healers. (hell, I just want to see Rayne have a wasted buffbot =P)

You want stealth balance? Degrade the effectiveness of stealth in proportion to proximity to friendly stealthers, and deactive see hidden entirely if you're not 100% solo.
Oh, and remove milegates.
Oh, and <insert endless list of balance changes here>

 

[Aeiedil]

It just seems pointless to me to put in spells/abilities that either have to be so crap as to be laughable (debuff with a 5sec duration - what, 2 nukes?) in order to avoid being overpowered as f00k...
Why not ask for a reduction in the cost of viper, or removal of the AugAcuity prereq on Wild Arcana, instead? Or a dmg boost on, forgive me if I've got my styles wrong, fire blade so that it's comparable to amethyst slash? I dunno, I don't much care either. Individual assassin balance changes are absolutely besides the point when stealth is 100% effective if you're standing on top of 6 friends - beyond sheer personal choice there's no damn reason for the wannabe assassin zerg not to stealthgroup.
Oh, and also, nerf druid haste conc buff please... Same goes for healers. (hell, I just want to see Rayne have a wasted buffbot =P)

hmm a few points. the main point of the dd debuff component is for a short-term debuff to allow the nightshade dd to do more damage and as a side-effect allow void/light elds to do more damage to aid groupability. the duration should not be long, 5 seconds might be a bit short, if not that short then perhaps have both the debuff components be approx 20 seconds and be around 10-15%. ill emphasize the point, the debuffs should not be massive, just a minor boost to the magical abilities of the shade.

reduction of viper cost would wind up with other realms asssassins crying for a nerf and/or crying to get their ra's lowered in cost. i think the cost is fine as it is overall.

removal of aug acuity WA pre-req would be nice but may not be possible due to the pre-req being present on other WA classes. what i would have liked to have seen would have been Aug Acuity raise STR on a shade, and the removal of Aug STR. the reason being Aug STR was not needed as a pre-req, and aug acuity didnt (and still has no noticable effect in 1.62 according to tests due to the variance going over the minor boost from aug acuity in 1.62) have any effect. the reason aug acuity didnt buff str in the first place for shades imo was because of the prescence of aug str, and thus meaning that if they had access to aug str and aug acuity buffing str there would be 2 ways to buff up str if that makes sence

likewise i dont really aggree that a change to blade styles is nessecary, i might be corrected however but i think that after all ive read and tested ill stick with the 6 suggestions i outlined above, perhaps with a 7th to change aug acuity for shades rather than the current change they added

 

[Gekul]

Being able to help groupmates is something which would be a nice addition imo. At the moment assassins are nothing but weak tanks in group situations, something that makes people consider one for a task other than scouting would be nice. Assassins can't do what they used to because of indirect changes to the game, why not give them something new?
I think a change to the axe line to something more rogue based would make the shadowblades whine less, we don't have anything comparable in Midgard at the moment. An evade based stun style like the one you mentioned would help a lot I think.
Shadowblades will be a lot like nightshades without the realm abilities (although balancing with realm abilities is stupid imo).

 

[old.LandShark]

Why not just increase the damage of your DDs? Seriously, all this debuffing stuff is just unnecessary overcomplication, in my eyes...
And if you don't agree there is a problem with your styles, can you please tell me why nightshades just don't hurt? As far as I can tell your dex & dex/str are as good as alb/mid races'....

 

[Aeiedil]

landshark, i don't know why we just dont hurt

my best garrotte is 660 against a green con enemy (sat), my best pa was 1250 (against a stood l49 mincer)

however my average hits seem to be in the region of 100ish

i reckon we dont appear to hurt because of the inherant high speed with the shades (keens in particular).

personally i am not a front-loader, i have capped qui dex str con and with haste cap swingspeed with a guarded rapier

as for why not just up dd damage

1 : castable dd would still not be used in a group situation other than to pull, if it debuffed a bit then theres a slight chance it might be used to debuff for a voidie in the abscence of a chanter

2 : the shout dd with body debuff would augment the nightshades poision ability, thus reinforcing their role as a poision assassin.

str-wise keens/elphs have less str than any other races iirc

 

[old.LandShark]

Actually, I'm not qualified to comment on how tough NS's are, I have had very few fights where we were both unbuffed/equally-buffed, solo and no active RAs were used...

 

[Aeiedil]

on the whole ns are pretty balanced, with the exception of shadowzerks at times etc etc

at least thats my opinion, hence not asking for many changes

 

[samildanachh]

everything will be fine when the la nerf comes imo
although inf's will prolly have a slight edge,but thats good

 

[Carlos Bananos]

Originally posted by Aeiedil
VN Thread 1 : Topic: Comprehensive comparison: Infiltrator, Nightshade, and Shadowblade.
VN Thread 2 (my thread) : Topic: Changes to the Assassins (semi-lengthy)

Originally posted by belth
Remove LA, DW, CD, regular weaponspecs from assassins. Instead, give us "Critical Strike"-type weapons which are always based on Str/Dex, with all damage-types available. Give SBs a selection of slower versions (5.0-5.5 spd?) in addition of the ones NS/Infil can use. Totally revamp CS-spec due to changes

Make dualwielding have no styles, just increased chance and increased +to-hit.

Make stealth level-based, eg. remove the spec and drop every assassin to 2.0x spec-points and give infils something to bring them apart from SB/NS.

Something to mull over and bring all the assassins closer to each other, although there'd need to be more than NS-magic, SB-big-hits/+hp and inf-something to deviate everyone from each other. Maybe give NS spec-line spells for their magic, SBs a spec-line that increases their damage by a certain % or something and something for the infil.

so, how come you guys can think of potentially v.good ideas, that all 3 assasins would agree on, without overtipping any balance, making the classes fun....but devs at mythic can't even control thier nerf bat

 

[Solarius]

Probably because they actually play the game?

 

[Aeiedil]

meaning what Solarius?

ive played the game, tested many characters, done much research

give me a few days and ill have the numerical repost of this ready but atm i have exams + presentations + essays due + its my birthday this week so im not exactly giving it my full attention

as for the LA nerf, from what i gather it is a bit of a bugger for sb's due to the way LA is calculated, hence suggesting the way la is calculated for sb's be changed

edit : might have misread what you said, if so then ignore rant

 

[Danya]

BTW Aeie, some casters can use debuff-nukes and I think the highest debuff is 10%, so you won't get more than that on a debuff-nuke for NS...

 

[Aeiedil]

i was gonna check that out before i asked for a % i thought it would probably be about 10% (notice in first post i did say it shouldnt have highed % than spec debuff-nukes)

 

[[PS]Venom]

I was under the impression that infils got more spec points because they don't get any kind of magical ability or 2h weapon....

O'course, not being an infil, I might be wrong.

 

[Aeiedil]

not quite

SB get :
5% more hp (not the 50hp quoted in notes)
2-H (not worth using tbh hehe)
Throwing weapons (ranged attack)
Shadowrun (rubbish tbh)
Thrust resist\Slash vunerable armour
100% double swing rate
Penalized mainhand\offhand damage

NS get :
Avoid pain (mini BoF)
Wild Arcana & Wild Acuity (nice)
Viper (unique ra that works)
Choice of pierce/slash
lvl 25 medium evade-stun
DD Shout (60 damage/20 secs approx against l50)
DD Cast (ranged attack)
Slash resist\Thrust neutral armour
Full mainhand damage
25%-60% offhand swing change, full damage

Inf get :
0.3x more spec points
Vanish (unique ra that kinda works but is sweet)
Choice of piece/slash
level 50 long evade-stun
Crossbow (ranged attack)
Slash neutral\Thrust resist armour
Full mainhand damage
25%-60% offhand swing change, full damage

the rational behind the 0.3x spec points was that infs would have to spec for the Disguise ability, where as it would come naturally to Shadowblades and Nightshades. the disguise ability however never came

 

[Puppetmistress]

Originally posted by Aeiedil
not quite
100% double swing rate
Penalized mainhand\offhand damage

What I just don't understand is this 'penalized damage'. I heard it before. What's the penalty on it? Lower damage? Actually I don't believe that since it's possible to get more dmg-overtime by utilizing the haste-effect on LA. And still it's offscale because LA-users hit very hard on their style (in numbers of absolute damage / swing) but they also swing way faster then you would expect when you get that damage in melee.

 

[Arthwyr]

Swap a RR7 infil for a RR7 shade anytime. Don't underestimate the advantage of being able to choose a character the size of a small luri in fights where more ppl are envolved its very easy to miss a luri sneaking up on you. True at RR1 the infil will have an advantage over the shade thx to the 0.3x spec point difference but once you get higher on the RvR food chain picking the right RAs on a shade can greatly increase its damage output and isnt max damage/mimimum time what the assassin is all about ?. Not gonna comment on shadowblades atm ... LA + all relics is well hmmm you know. Suppose once they bring LA back to earth level the SB will be pretty much upto par with the other realms assassin but the unique RA they have should be changed into something more usefull ... perhaps an attack speed burst so the 2H critblade becomes a more valid spec again ? And a fix in PA damage for all the 3 realms assassins so getting a PA in means something again. With 36enh buffs i PA'd a bard for 230 damage or something the other day with a 3.5 spd Guarded Rapier.

 

[greenfingers]

I agree with what is said, but as I said in an earlier post, NS's need some luve!!!

if not in their styles, then in RA's !

and seriously, give the poor NS's a use infront of enemy style:

high end cost, high bonus to hit, infront of enemy, bleed (4 Value) 24 secs

lvl 40 style or something???

this would even the styles a bit ???