Arming the Police

[Will]

Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you a sensible discussion thread. Try not to kill it too fast.

Unless you avoid anything topical, you'll all know about the shooting of the two teenage girls in Birmingham, and the armed siege in London. There has been a lot of newspaper coverage of both the increase in the number of firearm crimes, and the problems of gang violence and black-on-black violence.

Now, what I want from you lot is your opinions on a few points.

• Should the police routinely be armed?
• Do you think the gun problem is as serious as the papers are making it out to be?
• Is the Government going the right way with the minimum sentance for firearms?

You all know I'm a wooly-jumper wearing liberal, so you all know I'm going to say I don't think the police should be routinely armed. I think the current situation, with standard police using pepper spray and side-handled batons, and armed response units patrolling, is enough.

As for gun crime, I've encountered guns only three times in my less-than-pure past. Once doesn't count because it was an armed robbery, rather than routine carrying of guns, which is what I'm getting at here. And from the type of people I met with firearms, I can say that an average person would not ever encounter this.

Minimum sentance for firearms...well, since sub-machines guns (as used in Birmingham) have been illegal since 1934, and I think you'd already go to jail for longer than 5 years if caught with one, it does seem like a bit of a knee-jerk.

 

[Ch3tan]

Try living in London, IMO the police need armed patrol units, so not arm every single officer, but a higher percentage than currently are.

 

[Will]

You see, I get the feeling the comparing Scotland to the bigger English cities just doesn't work. I did assume that the problem was worse in London.

Certainly up here, gun crime just doesn't happen. There was a real knife culture up until 5 years ago, but a big police crackdown solved that problem.

 

[granny]

I don;t think the police should be routinely armed, no. I don't think it would help in the slightest - I think all it would do would be to increase the numbers of people shot by the police and increase the numbers of guns lost by the police and subsequently found by innapropriate people. I seem to remember that the existing armed police units have a pretty poor record when it comes to not losing their guns...

I don't know what the solution is but I have zero faith in (as Will says) knee-jerk responses like tougher sentences for gun crimes (the idea of effective deterrance by stiff prison sentences is nonsense, it simply doesn't work) and more armed police. I think it's a social problem.

 

[Will]

Originally posted by granny
I think it's a social problem.

Good point. I've certainly read that the police aren't getting a lot of leads in the Birmingham case, despite the fact that the shooting was obviously gang-related, and there were a lot of people at the party where it happened, because people are too scared to come forwards.

On a slightly different take on the social thing, what makes people decide to carry guns to be cool, and can anything be done about it?

 

[Ash!]

1) Fairly open minded on this. However looking at America their Police are routinely armed. Over the years gun crime has increased somewhat. Albeit the law is different. The right to bear arms under the constitution. First ammendment I think. Has the police being armed in America reduced gun crime ? I think the answer would be no.

2) Is the problem as bad as the papers make it out to be ?. Yes and No The loss of any life is tragic. However the British press sensationalise every possible story to get maximum exposure. Remember the campaign the News of the Screws ran about naming and shaming Paedophiles? This resulted in a load of people bieng unfairly targeted and places like pedatricians having there windows put in. Not saying that wasnt a serious issue but the press are only out for one thing and thats to get as many newspapers sold as possible. If that means profiting from sensationalising and exagerating the truth then thats what they will do IMHO

3) Being a bit cynical here but as Chairman Tony etal in the Labour Party has taken a battering in the polls recently "cherrie gate"Etc. Is this not trying to be a vote winner with this poicy. I have no problem with any jail sentence as long as there is adequate rehabilitation. That is the purpose of Prisons. Punish for the crime and rehabilitate the offender so they dont commit the same crime on release. However how many people get released from Prison only to be convicted of the same crime again.

Sorry for being a bit long winded

 

[ECA]

Originally posted by granny
I don;t think the police should be routinely armed, no. I don't think it would help in the slightest - I think all it would do would be to increase the numbers of people shot by the police and increase the numbers of guns lost by the police and subsequently found by innapropriate people. I seem to remember that the existing armed police units have a pretty poor record when it comes to not losing their guns...

I don't know what the solution is but I have zero faith in (as Will says) knee-jerk responses like tougher sentences for gun crimes (the idea of effective deterrance by stiff prison sentences is nonsense, it simply doesn't work) and more armed police. I think it's a social problem.

Deterrance does work, but a 6 month longer sentence, really does fuck all, if you said everyone who was caught carrying a gun illegally had their bollocks/tits chopped off, i'm sure the number would drop considerably.

 

[granny]

Originally posted by Will.
On a slightly different take on the social thing, what makes people decide to carry guns to be cool, and can anything be done about it?

Gawd I dunno, that's a fairly major question Off the top of my head I'd say that a society that makes more people feel like they have a real value would help... less unemployment, better jobs, better wages, better housing, better schools. If you feel that society values you then surely you're not going to need a stupid gun to feel valuable?

Out of interest I wonder where most guns come from in this country? Are they originally bought legally by licensed people and subsequently find their way into the wrong hands or are they imported from places with ludicrous gun owning laws like the US?

 

[S-Gray]

Someone in my neighbouring town of Warrington was shot twice this morning, once in arm and leg by someone in a car....

and about what? 3/4 people have been killed in Liverpool already the past week or so by gun related offences.

There does need to be some armed presence around now... especially in cities like London/Manchester/Liverpool, because they seem to have a high gun crime ratio.... not to mention this "Chemical attack" of Rasin which has been on the news lately...

 

[throdgrain]

Yeah, Im afraid I think that more police should be armed, though not nescesarily all of them.
Saying O its a social problem these people should have been given kittens as children changes nothing imo.

 

[Gumbo]

I find it quite amusing that the knee jerk idea of banning all handguns legally held in this country after the Dunblane massacre, has had absolutely no effect on reducing gun crime in this country. 2 of the 4 handguns used in that incident, were after all, illegally held anyway, but there you go...

On the question of where these weapons are coming from, I understand from watching/reading the news that a lot are deactivated ones that have been reactivated by the simple expedient of buying the necessary parts from abroad. As is often the case, the news says, 'over the internet'.

I've been a gun owner since I was 8 i think, thats 19 years, and i've never shot anyone. I was carefully educated before I was allowed to go near a gun, let alone actually hold one and fire it.

I can't see that saying to these people that are using guns for gang violence in the cities, 'You know, you really shouldn't do that', is likely to have any effect at all. Whilst it's not fashionable, maybe getting tough with these people is the only way ahead. Trouble is the prisons are already too full, and I understand the Australians aren't taking anymore, tsk.

So what do we do with them?

I don't know, how about put them to work clearing minefields in Cambodia or something?

'Here you go guys, you can play footie here, we'll be back in a couple of hours, have fun!' BOOM, scratch one gang member.

 

[.cage]

You never know when a commie influence will take over the police department. If they'd been armed when such a thing happened, it would surely result in absolute chaos!!

 

[Testin da Cable]

without voicing too much of an opinion let me just tell a little story:

after the barrybeer weekend Scooba and I were standing in Blackfriars station waiting for my train and drinking a coffee. like the fool that I am I ask Scoobs "Way aren't there any litterbins about?". He says "Because they'de be filled with bombs."
Later I was in Gatwick airport. There were litterbins everywhere, and armed officers [with some sort of submachinegun iirc] walking about. I felt quite safe really.

now in Arnhem, where I live, the police are very "in your face" on nights that are popular to go out on, but otherwise give pretty scant coverage.
At night I've seen people beaten by police for being drunk, crowds [a "crowd" in arnhem would be 20 people, tops] being "dispersed" by police cars being driven through them at high speed, getting charged by mounted officers et al, people being threatened by plain-clothes officers.
I personally have been mugged at gunpoint, my mother has been robbed, friends have been burgled multiple times, another friend has been knifed. The police don't even come if someone hasn't been killed it seems.

At this point in time, though I mave a lot of respect for people who are in the force and go out on the streets every day, I sadly feel that were something to happen to me I have about as much chance of winning the lottery as I have a chance of the police being able to do something constructive about it. All Dutch police are armed. There.

sorry for rambling.


by the way...Gumbo says this:

I've been a gun owner since I was 8 i think, thats 19 years, and i've never shot anyone. I was carefully educated before I was allowed to go near a gun, let alone actually hold one and fire
it.

guns don't kill people; people kill people. take the guns away and creative yobs will find another way. the only thing I see is very careful licencing, and even more careful education. My nephew shoots on a european level, he also has a small child. He follows every rule there is to be able to enjoy his hobby and keep his house safe for his daughter. Still, there are always the idiots who don't

 

[GDW]

Living in Northern Ireland all my life I will probably have a different perspective on it, but here are my thoughts

1. If the gun problem in Britain is escalating then I believe that the police have a right to carry firearms for their own protection.(In NI the Police have been armed both on and off duty for as long as I care to remember.)

2. The gun problem is likely to be worse than what is reported in the papers. (In NI the 70's and 80's had thousands of shooting incidents which never reached the public via the media)

3. No the punishment currently does not fit the crime, then again what crime is sufficiently punished?

 

[doh_boy]

I'm not sure if they do this but one idea I heard was to have one car armed in a certain area so that any call that requires armed officers would be dealt with by the armed car.

Also the birmingham shootings investigation are also being hampered by people not willing to tell the police because "they don't represent the people of this community". I heard a 'Community Worker' saying this on the news the other day and I really can't understand the thinking behind it. I live in an area of manchester that peope tend to avoid if they're not from it. (I have friends from stockport that I've known for around six years and I so far haven't managed to get them to any of my local pubs) and I have seen and very nearly experienced police brutality. So there is no real reason for me to like the police but if I saw someone shot or knew who it was I would be straight down the police station.

As for getting worse I do think it has gotten worse over the last few years, since around 1996, but not very recently. It has been more of a steady increase.

 

[Will]

Originally posted by doh_boy
I'm not sure if they do this but one idea I heard was to have one car armed in a certain area so that any call that requires armed officers would be dealt with by the armed car.

That is how things work currently, and I think thats pretty sensible. Your average policeman doesn't seem threatening, criminals don't tend to be armed, but when they are, armed response is only a few minutes away.

 

[Testin da Cable]

Originally posted by doh_boy

being hampered by people not willing to tell the police because "they don't represent the people of this community"

I've heard of this too. In some places there are voluntary patrols by people in a neighborhood-watch style thing. I don't really understand, because to me it reeks of taking the law into your own hands.

If I needed an officer then I'd bloody well grab the nearest one I saw heh

 

[Nos-]

I do believe the Police should be given guns.

But bullets I draw the line at.

</MarkThomas>

 

[Flimgoblin]

There's not been enough dodgy paedophile murders over christmas so the tabloids are blowing up the gun killings.

1. no
2. no
3. not sure.

Mark Thomas has a good way of putting things have to agree.

 

[Scouse]

...

The police themselves do not in general want to be armed.


The reason?? More criminals will arm themselves to counter the percieved threat.

 

[Wazzerphuk]

I don't think the Police should carry guns as standard. They don't need any more encouragement to feel more powerful than they are, and should be. We all know the police force in this country is a joke: partially racist, almost completely ageist and has more double standards than the fucking government.

I shan't rant, but yesterday was a good example of police using their power in completely unnecessary manners: Myself and a couple of friends were going down the police station, for them to clear something up (I was providing a lift). The officer wasn't there - he was out on call. So we get told to return in 20 minutes. I go and park up by the river, and we stop and sit for a while, talking in the car and having a cigarette before we head off again to the police station.
Behind us pulls up a vectra, stops, reverses back and pulls into the space next to me. Ask what we're doing - we reply having a cigarette before we go down the police station. Apparantly, even though specifically telling the officers who we are going to see and at what time, they decide we haven't provided good enough reason to be there, and they were going to perform a bodily search on me, my two friends and my car.
Firstly - they had no reason to search any of us. More abuse of the random stop and search of people. Secondly - by LAW they need "probable cause" to search someone's vehicle - they did not have this at all, and decided to make up a probably cause - claiming my friends looked "pretty fucked to be honest" (Is that really the language a policeman should be communicating in?) - when they were utterly sobre. Plus - why would they go down the police station fucked, go away, and then come back fucked again?

Searched for fuck knows reason why, sitting in your vehicle must be suspicious these days or something....

BTW, anyone in the Twickenham Police area (Hamptons, Teddington, Richmod etc) look out for officer TW 440. He's a cunt.

 

[kameleon]

I'm Paranoid, so when I see (and this has been happening over the past few years) gun legislation being tied in with "sensational stories" in the press then I get suspicious.

Gun crime will always happen. FACT. Criminals are just that, criminals. Most criminals see a firearm as a tool for the job, it scares people and makes them more compliant (it makes the job easier). I don't think that if Police were generally armed more criminals would go armed for the job.

What the problem is with the shootings in Birmingham and the rest of the country (I live in Moss Side, Manchester, where shootings are quite prevalent), is that most of the shootings we hear about are "gang related". In business, if a competitor is successful and covers an area that would take too much time to build up business in, you buy him out, or form a partnership. This usually works very well. With drugs and the massive amount of paranoia involved, this does not often happen, because of the illegality of it, you can't "buy shares" in another firm and so the end result is to try and destroy the rival faction.

This is one of the arguments for making ALL drugs legal.

Bring in licenses for "coffee shops" or whatever, we do it with alcohol (which kills more people and causes far more cost to the state) , you can buy tobacco at the corner shop even though it has been proven to cause early death. Bring drugs into the public sector, let make people make life choices for themselves (governments think we are such children). One of the reasons a heroin user (for example) can't work is because they spend much of their time grafting and scoring. If drugs were made legal and freely available for those stupid enough to want to base their life around them, they would be able to contribute to society more, working and paying tax. Goods would become cheaper in stores (less theft), the Police would be able to concentrate on other crimes (like enforcing speeding tickets) and the criminal element would be driven out of the drugs market and maybe less innocent people would be affected.

then again maybe im just dreaming

 

[bodhi]

Yes. Legalise Heroin so the police can pick on the motorist even more!

 

[Sar]

The police in NI are armed afaik. Just as well really, considering.

 

[amobea]

The Police here are all armed...
Personally i don't see it as that much of a problem, as they don't tend to loose the weapons, as they are controlled very strictly. Police shooting people isn't really a problem either.
There tend to be more issues here with police use of battons and pepper/capsicum sprays.
Australia being Australia though it is a very different environment, with alot less crime than higher populated areas like the UK or the US...

There were a few incident several years ago, 4 or 5 times police in victoria took a shoot first, ask questions if they survive approach... but there was alot of bad press about it and it hasn't happened since...

Personally i think arming police is a fairly safe thing...
They'd be taught how and when is appropriate to use the weapons... so it's not like they are going shoot you over a parking ticket...

 

[Scooba Da Bass]

Australia has 1/5th of the gun crime compared to the US
UK has 1/50th of the gun crime compared to the US

If you take into account the population difference that's pretty staggering, clearly armed police doesn't in fact help.

 

[amobea]

where are you making these convenient statistics appear from ?

 

[kameleon]

Originally posted by bodhi
Yes. Legalise Heroin so the police can pick on the motorist even more!

Motorist = scum

walk you lazy bastards or get a train or a bus. Then maybe my asthsma would nt be so bad, you wouldnt have drunk drivers, drive by shootings or Mcdonalds drive thrus

 

[Sar]

Or even better, drunken drive by drive through shootings at McDonalds.

 

[Will]

Originally posted by kameleon
Bring in licenses for "coffee shops"...and the criminal element would be driven out of the drugs market and maybe less innocent people would be affected.

I hadn't thought about gun crime as a reason to legalise drugs. I must be slipping.

Some good points in there, you wouldn't see a total reduction in guns in the hands of criminals, but you would see some reduction.

The problem is that legalising drugs is political suicide for any party, except maybe the Liberal Democrats, and even they backed away from it (members voted for decriminalisation of cannabis, leadership put its fingers in its ears and started singing). I don't think Middle England is ready for legalisation, and won't be for a good long time.

Edited little extra bit : Wazz, that sucks, but do you think having guns would make much of a difference to his attitude?