any lawyers in da house?

[old.ignus]

....or anybody who has a basic understanding of the law

Ok here's the situation, the people I work for are really dodgy fuckers who will do anything to cut costs, even if it is exactly legal. I could give you a list of things but heres the latest that drastically effect several members of staff for absolutely nothing in return.
Ok as with all companies we have a security and fire alarm that is monitored through the company that installed it, it was decided a while back that now if the alarm went off at night 2 people were required to enter the premises in case of an intruder, so 6 members with access codes and keys were chosen to pair up, one of these being me. Over the past few days the alarm has been experiencing faults and going off regularly, luckily I missed all of them, but because of this the comapny bosses have written a memo to the key holders saying that if a member of staff on "call out" doesn't show up, they will recieve a disciplinery and possibly a dismissal. And for this we will recieve absolutely nothing, aside from basic wage if we do have to come in. So what they are saying is that 1 out of every 3 weeks we have to not go out, and stay by a phone at all times, make ourselves available to come in during the middle of the night reguardless of what time you have to be up in the morning and all you get is basic wage.

This seems illegal to me and I was wondering if anybody could confirm it in any way.

 

[Sar]

Depends if it was in your contract or not.

 

[mr.Blacky]

hmmm last time I looked at it you should get paid more (an extra percentage). Uhmm this is in holland though. Check your contract and look at the Union Agreement for your kinda work

 

[old.ignus]

good point, unfortunately they lost the copy that I signed, or at least claim to have. So I don't know, but as I wasn't a key holder and had no access to the alarm when I signed my contract I doubt it.

 

[S-Gray]

they "lost" your contract?

no backups or somethin? me never seein a contract in my life tho... lol

 

[L_Plates]

i always thought if you was on call out ... IF you If got called out you got a AGREED sum but if nothing happens you get diddly squat and thats in the uk ....

 

[mr.Blacky]

yeah thats standard, though sometimes companies say well it cost you this much time add a bonus caus its so late.

Lost the contract my I ask what for company you work for? Also if its a big company they often have backups at the HQ if not where is your copy? I have m8 he used to go out for call outs and he got a nice reward.

 

[Sar]

Tell them you were promised free hookers every friday night, and it's in your contract and you'll take them to Industrial Trib. if they don't make with the readies

That should get them to find a new copy pdq

 

[mr.Blacky]

rofl like that

 

[Summo]

I'm no legal-type person but it seems to me that this is either:

• A voluntary undertaking to which you can say no if you want. Given the repercusions if you cock up though, I think you'd be a fool to say yes, or
• A major change to your working hours which would require you signing a new contract with these conditions included, along with a reasonable overtime payment if you are called out and a standard 'stand-by' payment for when you're on call.

I don't know anything about your company but if you have a personnel department I'd certainly take it up with them, or the Citizen's Advice Bureau . Your employers are blatantly taking the piss.

 

[old.ignus]

thing is the contract I signed said full time employee, this entittled me to double time bank holidays, days in lieu and all that crap as a full time employee, however the evil scummy bastards turned around and said that I shouldn't be getting double time as I wasn't employed as a full time member of staff, when I said my contract says otherwise they promptly replied with we've lost your contract.
I may start looking for a new job if this shit keeps up, I'm hoping they'll fire me for a poor reason so that I can take them to court.

50 in the space of 5 days suggests full time to me.

 

[Summo]

Fuck that! Full time does not mean 168 hours per week. My contract says I'm full-time and specifies the number of hours per week I am expected to work. If they tried to increase that I'd expect more money or I'd feel well within my rights to tell them to fuck off.

They are taking the piss without due regard for your well-being or safety.

Citizen's Advice Bureau, Ignus, I swear. I've seen grown employers weep at the sight of a CAB-headed letter with the words "It has come to our attention..." on it.

 

[Sar]

Isn't there a limit on the amount of hours you can actually work in a single week under European law?

 

[Furr]

I dont think they can dismiss you from not performing a voluntary and not legally binding (if it weren't in your contract) activity, if they did then you could charge them with unfair dismissal and get loadsa dosh.

Also i swear that this is not legal... Aren'y you meant to have a dedicated night watchmen for those sorts of things,

 

[raw.]

I worked for a security company, basicaly from what i can remember if you are called out at night you should by law be paid extra / or if mentioned whatever in your contract. Also they could quite easily pay a key holding firm such as securicor very little per day to provide this service for em, i think they charge sommat like 1p per day, then if called out theres a charge etc.

And another thing, if they have lost your contract, then its useless basicaly, so either request a new one (which is probably what there expecting you to ask for so they can fit in the little callout part) or go see the citizens advice.

 

[Damini]

Well, if any of those crap letters I have to photocopy at work for human resources bear any relevance here (it may be different in a non super market place but I think alot of this is an eu new thing)

Employers are now obliged to give you an eleven hour break between shifts. This can only be over ruled if you voluntarily opt out. (Does not apply to NHS jobs)

There is a maximum number of hours you can work per week. I cant remember what it is, but Im fairly sure you are riding high above it.

Work over a certain time at night is payed at an "unsocial hours rate" which adds a percentage of your basic on top of it. It is not legal for young workers to work unsocial hours.

When you sign a contract, you are meant to keep a copy of it, and so are they. So two copies. Not one that disappears.

I hvae a poop memory but these letters were fairly recent, so maybe you can look into them from there.

 

[Scouse]

OK - your company can NOT require you to work more than an AVERAGE 48 hour week. (European Directive - you have to sign something to say you don't want to work by those rules if they want you to work more).

You MUST have an ELEVEN HOUR break between shifts.

There's all sorts of other shit aswell.....

Anyway - for your situation - they can't force this upon you. If you agree to do this negotiate a call out charge(minimum, say, 4 hours), plus time-and-a-half for every hour you spend working (and charge from when you wake up).

If they don't agree - tell them to fuck off - and if they sack you - sue

 

[xane]

Originally posted by Sar
Isn't there a limit on the amount of hours you can actually work in a single week under European law?

As Scouse mentioned, this is actually a "directive", but I don't think this is enshrined in British law as yet, there are of course "reasonable" limits to what can be expected of you.

My company had call-outs, for which they used to pay a quite hansome hourly rate for just being on standby, but that was abolished, and although they replaced it with a salary compensation it did not make up the money for people like myself, who where on 24/6 callout.

If the job description requires callout, then I am afraid that is what you must do, or leave your job, however, as Damini and Scouse describe, there are certainly laws that cover "breaks" between work, although I'm not quite sure this includes callout as well as shifts. In any case, in the abcense of a contract, it will be up to lawyers to decide and to dice may be stacked against you in that game.

As far as I can see, the only thing you have grounds for is a requirement for them to renegotiate your contract for correct full-time status, considering the hours you are working. Sadly, the only pressure you can inflict is to threaten to leave, and they may well call your bluff

If other members of staff feel the same way as you, then I'd strongly advise getting together to approach them en masse, strength in numbers and all that.

Remember you can always call in "sick" if it "gets too much"

 

[old.samm]

Originally posted by camazotz


As Scouse mentioned, this is actually a "directive", but I don't think this is enshrined in British law as yet, there are of course "reasonable" limits to what can be expected of you.

I dont think that's a law but if you get ill from working too many hours you can sue your employers. Even to the point where if your main job is within the limits but you take a part time job that is over the limit, your main jobs employer is responsible for making you sign a form to show that you are aware of the risks of working too much.

In the eyes of the law Employees are everything and employers are wrong. I work in the accounts dept of a Solicitors and when we have genuine problems with our own employees there is so much red tape to go through to do anything withoiut the very real chance of them turning around and taking you to a tribunal. But if you haven't got a definate answer by tomorrow I'll ask at work.

 

[stu]

ok, Employment Law was never my speciality but from what I can remember of it (and basic rules of Contract, which I was pretty good at):

- Most contractual matters (and civil disputes) are determined by what a reasonable person would think reasonable to expect in those circumstances. On that basis, it would be unreasonable to assume that a "full-time" employee would be required to be on call-out, or even available, at any time beyond normal working hours of the company. In absence of these being explicitly determined contractually (it should be virtually the first line of the contract to be honest, it's as important as the fact you're actually employed), the classic '9-5' or similar is adopted. What hours is your company actually 'open', doing business? They're the hours that you have to put in, as full time.

- Having said that, it's not illegal for them to ask you to perform extra duties. However, you are perfectly within your right to say that you're not prepared to do them, or that you require some other benefit as a result (extra renumeration, flexibility in main working hours, 1/2 day a week off, etc). If they refuse, or fire you, they've caused an actionable breach - unilateral change of contract terms is cause for immediate, prima facie breach and termination, with the responsible party (in this case, your employer) responsible. It's also worth noting that, if you told them that you're not doing it and they then made your life at work difficult, you could still quit and claim unfair dismissal, or sue for a breach.

- Similarly, all these other points in your contract that you claim you are entitled to, but they are not giving you, are grounds for prime facie breach. The fact that they've directly contradicted the terms of your contract, and then are telling you they don't have the copy, could be used to prove bad faith (useful for punitive damages or action). Where is your copy of the contract exactly? Please don't say you've lost it... If you have, there's very little you can do, given that it basically means you don't have a contract any more (you could suggest contract-by-action, but it's pretty weak and not much use for the finer points of employment disputes). If you've got your contract, book a meeting with your head honcho, take it with you, and clarify all the things you require (that are expressed). If they refuse, it's breach - quit and claim unfair dismissal. Although to be honest, any company that would lose their employees' contracts must be a total fucking joke, and you'd do best to get out of there asap.

- Of the other things that have been mentioned by other people... Working Time Directive isn't really relevant to be honest. It's calculated over a probable average of working time, based on a 13 week calculation, so wouldn't be much use to you. Added to which, there's virtually no avenue of enforcement or punishment should it be broken. The vast majority of smaller companies in the UK just ignore it. The "unsociable hours" or "danger pay" rules refer to shift or contract work, or those positions where a 'significant proportion of their working day' are placed under these conditions - this thing you've been asked to do has little/nothing to do with your primary employment, so doesn't apply.

In summary, you've got a lot of options (from a legal perspective), and you are pretty much guaranteed to come out on top. However, in the real world, any company that displays the kind of disregard to basic conditions of employment that yours seems to, is also the kind of company that won't have adequate general liability cover, or is likely to section 5 itself and fuck off with your paycheque. So just leave.

 

[Wij]

Wow. A well-informed post

 

[xane]

I still say get some support.

A company I worked for required someone to come in on a Bank Holiday, it is actually illegal to insist this, you have to ask. The company offered nothing but a day in lieu, consequently everyone refused and there was NOTHING they could do about it

When they upped it to two days per Bank Holiday they had a queue of people, I got an extra six days coming in Xmas and New Year

Talk to your workmates, in most situations if you act alone you'll get nowhere.

 

[old.ignus]

thanks for all the help guys but I can see me looking for a new job soon which would be nice to leave them in the shit, as I have 2 years training of a unique job skill.