An Observation

[old.Zanaa]

Yesterday we took our guildgroup for a rather long rvr session in emain (without being at alb wall/full party release a single time). We had many good fights against mid/alb groups (thank you) at varous locations and i observed this-

Being quite high levels we won almost every encounter against both mids and albs, even when somewhat outnumbered EXCEPT when the opposing force had speed+insta-attack ppl with a clue. When a healer comes rushing in with skaldspeed and his insta-AE mez ready, together with some skalds wth their shouts, there is nothing our Hibby force can do. Same goes for when Alb force with minstrels and clerics come rushing in with speed with their instastuns/dds/pbae-mez - hard to stop them.

This is because as we all know hibernian classes are not blessed with insta-attacks except for bard shortrange dd and champion dd - but there are not many champs around. All our useful spells has a 2-4sec casting time. This is because crowd control is what wins most fights. Even if our bard/druid targets the front enemy and pushes down the cast-key, they will get insta-broken/crowd controlled way before a single spell goes off, if the opponents are not clueless. It happened time after time yesterday.

This means we have to take them totally unawares to win. And it's impossible to do that every time.

I, and many with me, don't think all these instaspells belong in this game. At least not being so powerful. Can live with DD shouts I guess, but instant crowd control is silly.

Zana, Lliad Ddraig

 

[old.Halfmad]

Zana just a point but everytime I see a group of Hibs they're standing close together almost holding hands. I rarely see anyone shouting "spread out" and at the end of the day that's all it really takes to mess up AOE spells.

Right now though Hibernia (being the so called magical realm) should have more insta spells than either of the other 2 realms, I think it's stupid that they havent to be honest.

 

[old.chesnor]

Can't speak for Clerics, but Middy healers spec into the Pacification (the only line worth speccing as Mending is uselss past 22 and Aug is a total waste) purely to get the instas. These instas (2 stuns, 2 mezz both single + AE ) and a power regen are the mainstay of the Pac line. It is the Healers ONLY weapon, as we have no offensive spells and an unspecced weapon. Now imagine the lfe of a solo Healer without instas in PvE or RvR, if we get aggroed by suprise, without our instas we are dead meat. Healers neeeeed them, its all they have got.

In 1.49 (?) mezz is kinda nerfed with spirit resist actually doing something and purge. Hibby druids get purge in one of their lines (plus purge is a realm ability available to every class) and they are the only class in the game to get this spell from a spec line. This will make the problem you describe easier for the non-insta classes. Sure at this time, first mezz wins, but with purge being a must have realm ability, I guess mezz wil play a much less pivotal role in RvR after 1.50.

 

[lofff]

u see zana? u always need me >.<, but agree at all, Our champs comunity is quite reduced due to tha nerfing question, we are supossed to be tha insta-part of hib forces, semi-tanks and tha best on 1vs1, muahahahha [/ironic]. Actually debuffs = caster interrupt keys [no other f**king use] so we have just a long range dd and the always usefull snare but... where is that instamezz/stun from other realms? will be happy with tha single target one dont really need to push a key and ae/pbaoe mezz a full group [love those clerics charguing with thir fingers on tha insta-heal and tha instapbmezz thing]

Actually our best point (as champs) is to chargue those instamezzers using tha shouts to slow em and forcing those healers/clerics to use their instamassmezz on us (singletarget) that usually improves ur group posibilities and of course, kills us, kamikaze action from those semi-tanks with no hp....

agh SHUT UP LOFFF! YES CHAMPS ARE NERFED FU!


edit: added those things betwen []

 

[old.Mousah]

Zanaa

want to join us in Albion?
we kinda need healers

we requested a Cleric that could heal and rezz
we got a Cleric that can rezz and SMITE!

(obs! to all of you clerics that are smiters, no hard feelings?
hope you still rezz me when im dead, afterall im just a tincan



Mousah mOO
Pikeman at 47
<Dragon Knights>
R3 L1

 

[old.Veeshan]

Well Zana you find instant - mez silly and i find 9 seconds stun on each Hibi-caster silly
thats + and - of each realm thats what balance the game
Mitgard has best instants ( Stackable with normal cast ! ) - yea pacify healer can use instant area/single mez then cast it and youll be mezed again same about area/single stun, but its really not much fun playing healer b/c they dont have any offensive spells - so Mitgard always lack em.
Albion has only pba instant mez actually short radius on smiters
but again you can stop rushing cleric before they get close and mez you.
Hibernia has as i said single longtime stun on each caster and stun>mez badly b/c no one can do mez/break and ruin crowd control ( like most albs usually do ) also bards and light eldritches have nice area mez and Hibernia doesnt lack em like Mitgard lacks healers for example or Albion lacks sorcerers.
So mitgard has best crowd control in theory but here on Excalibur they have bad class-disbalance so its about same as Albion and Hibernia .

 

[tilde]

nono mOO, dont lie - we dont hate ALL of the smite-clerics, just the ones who prior their smiting above their groupmates.

 

[lofff]

ROFL@mousah and tilde, glad to know thats not only in hibernia muaaahahaha. i wish to know why most of droods/bards forget their healing powah in tha vault keeper before heading to emain >.<

thats no tanks the most of hibs and even been tha only tank in a group u wont get a heal, ull see how droods chargue with u and will try to kill some1 before it gets their 3 lifes (2 instaheals)

Anyway i love u all naturalist from hibernia, i was one in beta and know tha feelings, keep resing me plz (altho u had to check all emain before coming back to res tha deads)

 

[<Harle>]

Originally posted by chesnor
Now imagine the lfe of a solo Healer without instas in PvE or RvR, if we get aggroed by suprise, without our instas we are dead meat. Healers neeeeed them, its all they have got.

Not much to imagine here - just play ANY Hibernian healer-class, and you got it.

 

[old.Zanaa]

You didn't get it Veeshan, how am i supposed to be able to land a stun on a cleric that comes rushing for me with minstrelspeed? as i said there is no chance whatsoever for me to land my stun/mez before he or his minstrel reaches me and mez me. not even in quickcastmode and stunbutton pushed to the bottom. Stun is good in many situations, but mongoclerics ALSO got 9sec stun, got more hps than i can take off them in 9sec(at least without dexbuffs) and can just instaheal and sprint me down after stun(on less expereinced clerics u can do 1 nuke frst and then stun, but the good ones pull an insta before stun.

Besides, i would trade my stun for your quickcastable Aeroot +Aemez+runspeed any day. But don't get me wrong, I dont feel nerfed. I just think instamez/stun is silly feature.

And of course if they were removed, healer and the other classes who depend alot on it would have to be compensated. Not that it's ever going to happen but still. Btw purge will work on hib spells also :-

Zana, Lliad Ddraig

 

[old.Arya]

Originally posted by Halfmad
Zana just a point but everytime I see a group of Hibs they're standing close together almost holding hands. I rarely see anyone shouting "spread out" and at the end of the day that's all it really takes to mess up AOE spells.

Get a bard in your group and play hit and run, we survived long (only had to release 1 time when we stumbled over mids crauchon force ) in 3 hours emain. And killed quiet many, even if we were a somewhat outnumbered (like zana said already).
Killing somebody and stand there longer than needed is most stupid thing you can do. Only thing more stupid is camping Alb TK.

 

[malenka]

I really symathise with you. Shamans have no instas and by the time we cast, the battle is over. I didnt know it was a nerfed class until I started reading the USA forums.

 

[old.Jazhara]

Funny that the best ranged realm complains about Albions rushing in - thats the only thing we can do - close the distance or we are rooted/nuked/nearsighted/bolted/mezzed by hibernia.

If you don't like it don't play the game. If you die to often to Albions maybe get some new tactics instead of whining.

And to shamans, they have a right to whine - that class is kinda broken.

Jazhara

 

[Karam_gruul]

Originally posted by Zanaa

Being quite high levels we won almost every encounter against both mids and albs, even when somewhat outnumbered

Zana, Lliad Ddraig [/B]

wait.. your trying to tell me hib won a fight.. ?

all thats needed to kill any group of hibs is a tank with minstrel speed just charge him in, and no hib stands a chance

 

[old.Arya]

Re: Re: An Observation

Originally posted by Karam


wait.. your trying to tell me hib won a fight.. ?

all thats needed to kill any group of hibs is a tank with minstrel speed just charge him in, and no hib stands a chance

You are simply the most stupid guy posting here, even Organ Grinder can learn something from you.

P.S It takes ages before I get mean but you are seldom annyoing ^^

 

[old.Nol]

zana

If you have a bard with you, tell 'em to use "lullaby", it is instant and wrecks the charge buy stopping their speed. Gives you those 2 extra seconds you need to mezz the buggers. Group lull is awesome, and is prolly the most underused bard spell, this will serverely change the outcome of your battles.

Thanks to brennik for showing me

 

[old.chesnor]

Originally posted by Harle


Not much to imagine here - just play ANY Hibernian healer-class, and you got it.

All Hibby Naturalists can spec weapons Whether or not they choose to do so is their problem. Midgard Healers get NO offense. Not one medieval sausage...nothing, nish, squat

I think a compromise on this issue would be to remove all instas from 'fighter' classes with offense, like clerics for example (blatantly overpowered when they neglect their rejuv line). Such that the mezzing/stunning is a pure support class role. (No matter which way you square it, its hard to label a smite specced cleric as a support class ). However, being a pure support class with no offense is tremendously dull (as someone else pointed out). Shame it took me 46 levels to realise that heh. Anyway, take heart that another insta mezz/stunner won't be tearing around emain anymore

 

[Tank Init]

guess u never played on hib then as a druid cant spec into a weapon

 

[K0nah]

Oh please, Hibs complaining about mezz? Come off it

But thanks for the tips - I've been trying to tell our lot to charge u or get nuked to death for sometime now...

 

[ceixava]

mezz is annoying, but atleast when it is casted, it can be interrupted, hib is the only realm without insta stun/mezz

if a loner hib group in macha with bard/mentalist/druid meets a group of the other realm, even if the hib group sees the other group first, the other group can still win easily with a small tactic.

all they have to do is interrupt the caster that is doing his crowd control spells, i find that really annoying, not even being a caster class

and as insta spells are not interrutable (?) by lullaby or melee, a minstrel/skald/healer who knows their game can practically wipe any group they come by

rvr still is mostly so that the side to first land a major crowd control spell wins

 

[old.Niljindil]

Originally posted by Jazhara
Funny that the best ranged realm complains about Albions rushing in - thats the only thing we can do - close the distance or we are rooted/nuked/nearsighted/bolted/mezzed by hibernia.

If you don't like it don't play the game. If you die to often to Albions maybe get some new tactics instead of whining.

And to shamans, they have a right to whine - that class is kinda broken.

Jazhara

Ok, jaz, you normally say very logic stuff and it normally makes sense and all.

BUT, just because the PLAYERS in your realm dont want to be sorcerors and cabalists doesnt give you the right to say our realm is the best ranged realm.

Make a sorc alt(for some random mezing/rooting), or even better, a CABALIST alt speced in matter and you will see how much the "ranged realm" owns you.

Your realm has all the things we do, just that the players in your realm are to stupid to play anything else than clerics to make the realm balanced.

 

[Novamir]

I checked out the Pac spec line the other day and frankly im gobsmacked... the Healer Pac line is UBER UBER uber.

Thank god most of the time mids arent clever enough to use healers (or dont have many)

 

[Feldegast]

If I might add to the Hib-healer-speccing-weapons-hence-no-instas topic..

Hibernias Naturalist dmg table IS the worst in the game

The argument of, U can specc weapons doesnt make it. Even if I specc my blunt to 50 (making me utterly nerfed in all other aspects of this game) my dmg output is still crap and I will be beat down to a bloody pulp by most classes.

Wearing the damn rf armor and only getting evade 2 also kind of sux

 

[Brennik]

Yepp, that's the thing I'm thankful too: too few Middie healers. I'm actually contemplating on deleting by dr00d and going over to Mid to play a healer. I would love to see the Albs' faces when they finally learn rushing in would just get them insta-aemezzed and picked off one by one (while stunned of course, can't let the evil clerics use their instas).

But guess all the people are too caught up with their "me must kill" attitudes.

Oh yea, thanks for reminding lullaby still works Kami. It gets broken in some future patch, so it won't interrupt squat

Still wondering what the hell the developers where thinking... In every other game there's always a counterspell for each and every spell, or then the "uber"spells get nerfed to oblivion...

Oh yea and Mousah, I'd be more than happy with the smite clerics if they couldn't even ress. Would see a ton less of the feckers that way. You get one powerful trick, you'd lose some others. Too bad the tincans can have all the power and virtually no drawbacks.

Anyway, was fun last night. Ganked some unsuspecting Albs and Mids and then some suspecting Mids ganked us (/wave Liv), thank god we got to return the favour later. Then we got sloppy after killing this soloing soft Avalonian at Mid gate (hi Veeshan, think that's 10-0 for our group vs you, bring some friends next time) and a full group of bluecons wiped our five sorry butts back to mBeo. (I can see the replies now: did you really expect to win that fight? Hell yea!)

 

[old.Jazhara]

Rofl
make a cabalist?
I'm not that stupid ;P

Dots = useless
Pet = useless

only good thing is the range debuffer - and oh wonder the hib bolt casters have that wonderful debuff

Sorcerer? Nice class, but ever tried to mez with negate sight?

use negate sight and see how mighty a smiter is - btw their range is only 1350.

And to all those whines - just tell it to someone that is interested in it, noone tells you that you have to play this game.

Sorry i'm just a bit upset cause i played on US Servers and i'm through every debate about classes, gimps, whines or whatever.

There are some underpowered classes in this game (Shamans, Cabalists, ... ) that have a right to complain a bit. But nevertheless, if you don't enjoy the game then don't play it. Every discussion about it or whine about won't make it better or help in any way.

Jazhara

 

[malenka]

Yeh, you are right, just concentrate on the great social life in the game (which it is - keeps us all at home on a Saturday night) and make the best of the nerfed chars that you have invested all that time in
Do what I do, and AF on a good player. Managed to leech up to lvl 2.2 by doing that, and surprisingly they dont seem to mind.

 

[Salazar]

Are pets really that useless Jaz? At least my nuking pet has saved my life many many times from archers/casters... of course i dont have nuking power of an eldritch... but pets have some use i think. Well... im not cabalist but enchanter... but i think that cabalist must be albs enchanter... ok... fine... im a gimp

Salazar lvl 50 Enchanter Elf
Best looking Elf in Hibernia

 

[old.Jazhara]

Enchanters could use some help with their spell lines.
But Enchanter pets are the best ones of the 3 pure pet classes (nuking pet - but that pet has limited use too cause it goes into melee after some nukes)

And to enchanter nukes: you nuke for same dmg as an Eldrich if you are specced properly.

Jazhara

 

[old.Whut]

Originally posted by chesnor
Can't speak for Clerics, but Middy healers spec into the Pacification (the only line worth speccing as Mending is uselss past 22 and Aug is a total waste) purely to get the instas. These instas (2 stuns, 2 mezz both single + AE ) and a power regen are the mainstay of the Pac line. It is the Healers ONLY weapon, as we have no offensive spells and an unspecced weapon. Now imagine the lfe of a solo Healer without instas in PvE or RvR, if we get aggroed by suprise, without our instas we are dead meat. Healers neeeeed them, its all they have got.

In 1.49 (?) mezz is kinda nerfed with spirit resist actually doing something and purge. Hibby druids get purge in one of their lines (plus purge is a realm ability available to every class) and they are the only class in the game to get this spell from a spec line. This will make the problem you describe easier for the non-insta classes. Sure at this time, first mezz wins, but with purge being a must have realm ability, I guess mezz wil play a much less pivotal role in RvR after 1.50.

I agree with you in many ways. I play support classes. What have Hib support classes got? No offense capability OR defense capability worth a candle!

They haven't got insta's either. Closest to anything useful is the Druids area root, and wow, is that supposed to compete?

That is why I do not play a Hib support class. I would like to in many ways, but what is the point?

If one support class in one Realm needs insta mezz and stuns, then ALL of them do. Personally I think they just ruin the game, and should be got rid of.

 

[old.Whut]

Originally posted by Jazhara
Funny that the best ranged realm complains about Albions rushing in - thats the only thing we can do - close the distance or we are rooted/nuked/nearsighted/bolted/mezzed by hibernia.

If you don't like it don't play the game. If you die to often to Albions maybe get some new tactics instead of whining.

And to shamans, they have a right to whine - that class is kinda broken.

Jazhara

Best ranged Realm is not Hibernia.

Without discussing the points regarding classes, things don't get changed, and balancing isn't attempted. Mythic ARE doing a steady job of addressing balance issues, for instance recent changes address much that is wrong with Shamans. For all that, a Shaman is a playable class at the moment, as it has quite a bit going for it. Far easier to compensate a Shaman than a Druid, for instance.

The best support class in the game at the moment, by quite a margin, is the Cleric. The closest to the Cleric, is the Shaman.

As a Shaman, my Cave line bolt has a range of 1875. Does any Hib caster have a bolt with longer range than that?

Also, Spec wise a Shaman has a good augmentation line that includes a decent damage add. The mending line has Friggs and Fungal Rejuvenation which are both great tools. The cave line has bolt, AoE Root, PBAOE disease, and a damage shield.

Baselines have the usual buffs with augmentation, heals, cures and group heals with mending, the useful area disease, single dot, and single root with the cave baseline.

It is a useful and usable tool kit by any stretch of the imagination.

The biggest problem many who play support classes have, is the individual tank. Far to many think that a support class is their for their exclusive use and benefit. They get 10% damage, and scream HEAL FFS!!!

People play support classes because they want to and pay to, but many don't know how to play them correctly, and it is a very rare tank that comprehends what is actually necessary. Far to many support classes listen to what tanks want, rather than what the suport class actually needs. Then they end up with messed up characters, lose interest, and go off and play something else.

The truth is, as the game is at the moment in RvR, it is not about tanks if they do their job and die, that is all that matters - then they get rezzed. Action is far too fast to even consider healing.

As a result, support classes have to survive, and they need the tools to be able to do it. Hib support classes do not have those tools AT ALL.

The Albion Cleric does, and both the Mid classes have useful tools available as well.

As a decent rule of thumb, the very LAST thing anyone playing a support class should do, is listen to advice from a tank.

Just my 2c.