Albion RvR TL Report - March

[Kagato]

Albion RvR Report, March 2004

Overview:

RvR battles over the past 2 years have steadily moved to a state where players are faced with higher necessities to effectively compete as a single individual along with more stringent requirements for competitive groups. Current RvR is much less forgiving in regards to diverse and unique specs, much more fast-paced and much less a game catering to casual or even regular players. The results observed include an underutilization of many class types to meet 8-person group needs, more one-dimensional speccing, population disparity issues, and continuing core balance problems.

Concern: RvR Group Design and New Major Group Abilities

The issue of Albion’s major group abilities spread across more classes is still a primary concern in this report. The dilution of major group abilities among Albion classes has been thoroughly explained in the past August and November reports and the current situation has not changed. New major group abilities are also being introduced that may further increase the requirements for a specific number of classes/specs to form a competitive group. This would contribute to the frustration felt by many Albion players since Albion groups must already sacrifice one or more major support abilities for more damage output to effectively compete in RvR.

Concern: Realm Abilities

With the upcoming RA review, many Albions feel that an equalized offering of RA’s would be better for overall RvR balance. However, a major concern is the fact that Albion RvR groups tend to rely on their currently powerful group RA’s to compensate for weaker base group design. With a more equal distribution of realm abilities, Albion groups would fare more poorly in RvR than what is currently observed. This relates directly to the primary concern that Albion has the most number of classes with core abilities that are the most spread out.

Concern: RvR Incentive System and Population Control

Unlike PVE, which has multiple types of rewards, RvR only has benefits from realm points (which grant RA’s and higher skills from realm ranks) and Relic bonuses. This incentive system primarily promotes regular and hardcore players to form “gank groups” and operate separately from a main force. Players are hoping that changes will be made to the current incentive system and more types of rewards will be added to promote a “realm-war” atmosphere as oppose to the “group/guild-war” theme that RvR has been shifting towards over the past 2 years. In respect to the Frontiers expansion, the “Emain-farming” effect will only shift to a new area if nothing is done to better reward players for taking/defending keeps, relics and other key structures along with making such battles more fun for both sides. Players would also like to see more active population control methods to better equalize the current population disparities among the realms/servers.

Concern: Class Desirability and Optimal Group Templates

There are many underperforming classes in RvR that are excluded from well-known, optimal group set-ups. This is a major source of frustration for many players when trying to form RvR groups. For Albion, much of this problem has to do with the high number of classes with specific key abilities that are needed in each group. To increase the number of desirable group templates, classes should be balanced more towards the goal where any class can join the group and contribute equally in effectiveness once a core set of necessary abilities is present. The core set of abilities (healing, buffs, speed, suppression etc.) should also be easier to attain across the available classes. This would dramatically reduce the one-dimensional speccing seen in current classes along with addressing the issue of class exclusion that is felt by many players.

Specific Issues: Crowd Control

The lack of instant-ranged AE crowd control is still a major concern for Albion players as outlined in the August and November reports. This type of ability has especially proved effective when combined with PBAE or for regaining the initiative in combat. With the upcoming RA review, key abilities such as range 1500 insta-AE mez/stun/root need to be re-evaluated for availability across the realms to ensure better balance in RvR.

Specific Issues: Identification of Classes in RvR

Specific Albion support classes still tend to be easier to identify in RvR. With the use of TOA artifacts, certain support classes from other realms can now also hide their appearance, while such availability is not granted to the same degree for Albion support classes.

Other Issues:
-TOA items/abilities contributing to lag and server problems with large-scale RvR
-Power Relics viewed as more beneficial than Strength Relics
-Overwriting Resurrection spells
-Radar and other forms of cheats
-Melee Style imbalances
-Albion still has a Double-speccing disadvantage
-Master Abilities still need some more balancing among the different lines

-----signature-----

Kiamar Blackblade
Mercenary Master
Unicorn Knight
GM of Vigilance
Albion RVR TL


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Agree with him all you like but Mythic wont do sweet FA about it.

 

[Draylor]

Another TL that specialises in stating the obvious it seems.

For now Mythic are going to ignore this answering 'Frontiers is coming' to every point - so its a bit of a waste of space

 

[Nerve]

Another TL that specialises in stating the obvious it seems.

For now Mythic are going to ignore this answering 'Frontiers is coming' to every point - so its a bit of a waste of space

^^

My thoughts exactly.

 

[Asha]

Another TL who thinks people want zerg warfare/keep sieges.
the truth is that there is nothing to stop this "realm warfare" from going on right now except the lack of desire for it.
what is a gank group going to do in the face of a keep take force? nothing. in front of a relic raid force? nothing.
people could have keep sieges all day if they wanted to, they don't. It's more fun to fight where you're actually effecting what is going on than to be one of 40 or 50 or 100. You're never going to get around that.
"Unlike PVE, which has multiple types of rewards, RvR only has benefits from realm points (which grant RA’s and higher skills from realm ranks) and Relic bonuses. "
That is just a stupid statement - so RvR grants RAs, skill points, relic bonuses, keep bonuses, and FUN - but it's lacking compaired to PvE? I guess that is why we all love to PvE and rvr is dead in DAoC.

 

[sibanac]

Another TL who thinks people want zerg warfare/keep sieges.
the truth is that there is nothing to stop this "realm warfare" from going on right now except the lack of desire for it.

I think he means the lack of desire is caused by the lack of reward for it.
Its faster to get rp's running around in a gank group then defending a keep.
Thats what he wants changed.
If they can make keep warfare more intresting and more rewarding in terms of rp's then it would be a good thing i think

people could have keep sieges all day if they wanted to, they don't. It's more fun to fight where you're actually effecting what is going on than to be one of 40 or 50 or 100. You're never going to get around that.
...

The emain zerg doesnt seem to think that way

 

[swords]

Im sure mythic will fix everything with one wave of the magic wand

 

[Konah]

The emain zerg doesnt seem to think that way

the emain alb-zerg is a function of overpopulation and mythics failure to introduce a realm population balance system. /level doesn't quite cut it, those toons are alts, its not gonna have a lasting effect on an underpopulated realms presence in RvR or PvE.

i'm sure the majority would prefer more even/close fights than the rather sickening rp stampedes (which all realms seem to manage from time to time regardless of population) that albion are teh masterz of

 

[sibanac]

the emain alb-zerg is a function of overpopulation and mythics failure to introduce a realm population balance system. /level doesn't quite cut it, those toons are alts, its not gonna have a lasting effect on an underpopulated realms presence in RvR or PvE.

i'm sure the majority would prefer more even/close fights than the rather sickening rp stampedes (which all realms seem to manage from time to time regardless of population) that albion are teh masterz of

the emain zerg is on right about every server in the world, no matter who has the bigest population.
The reason in that its the easyest frontier zone to get to , the terain is open and easy to navigate , and there is little or no aggro.

 

[Kagato]

Another TL who thinks people want zerg warfare/keep sieges.
the truth is that there is nothing to stop this "realm warfare" from going on right now except the lack of desire for it.
what is a gank group going to do in the face of a keep take force? nothing. in front of a relic raid force? nothing.
people could have keep sieges all day if they wanted to, they don't. It's more fun to fight where you're actually effecting what is going on than to be one of 40 or 50 or 100. You're never going to get around that.
"Unlike PVE, which has multiple types of rewards, RvR only has benefits from realm points (which grant RA’s and higher skills from realm ranks) and Relic bonuses. "
That is just a stupid statement - so RvR grants RAs, skill points, relic bonuses, keep bonuses, and FUN - but it's lacking compaired to PvE? I guess that is why we all love to PvE and rvr is dead in DAoC.

I agree to an extent, people form their perfect guild groups because its what they enjoy, not just because its effective, alot of people enjoy getting the maximum out of their characters and perfecting them and the groups. Its like driving a sports car, you want to get all that you can out of it And when you win you enjoy it, when you lose you learn from it.

In the face of a zerg how do you tell if you made a differance? individual skill and knowledge makes no differance when its all down to numbers. And some people do enjoy keep sieges, but I sure as hell don't. I like to use a treb in siege defense, but only because its the only way a tank will help in any way, during a keep take your just cannon fodder too.
Mythic could fix that, but then it becomes unrealistic.

I don't think changing the rewards will help any either, rps are fine as they are, keep claiming is fine too, it gives a guild a place to show of and gives the guild rps, we don't need more, and if they do add a new reward, its just something else to farm.

The basic core of the problem is balance, it always has been and always will be, and until mythic stop hiding from this fact and get the balls to deal with the problem, nothing will change, its all just fluff.

By now mythic should have gathered what it is people want from the game, we would not be trying so hard to perfect our groups and characters for gank groups if we wanted to zerg or bash keep doors.

 

[Skilgannon]

What is popular with players is directly related to what supplies the most reward.

I hear players say that it is boring to take/defend keeps, and you see they are in a tank group. Those same players like to be in a group during a siege where the group is packed with cabalists and ice wizzies.

It isn't the fact that being in a siege is boring. They aren't doing anything different when a few cabbies join the group. The difference is rps. Something stops being boring when rps flow.

If Mythic made siege warfare inherently more rewarding in terms of RP earning than running in an optimal gp ganking low rr, then guess what most people would do.

Would the leet Guilds say, 'No! We are not going to participate in sieges! We prefer running 1fg and having 'fair' fights. We don't earn any RPs but we're happy.'

If sieges gave high returns the leet groups would enjoy sieges.

 

[Asha]

I think he means the lack of desire is caused by the lack of reward for it.

Its faster to get rp's running around in a gank group then defending a keep.

Thats what he wants changed.

If they can make keep warfare more intresting and more rewarding in terms of rp's then it would be a good thing i think

Personally, I still would not enjoy a keep fight even if I got a huge rp bonus for doing it. Maybe it's the class I play, but a keep take is torture to me. I don't enjoy RvR because of the RPs... I enjoy RvR for RvR, if I just wanted RAs I would role an infil ><

MAYBE if they made it more intresting and not just a matter of numbers or bashing doors ... but atm for a cleric it is the most dire thing.

The emain zerg doesnt seem to think that way

well that is who we should base things on ...


Kagato, I think it's several things that ppl are unhappy about - he touched on some. The in-realm balance thing Mythic looks to be addressing (except friars and they are fucking armsmen) in frontiers. However, it looks like they are screwing up the rvr balance at the same time. It's not rocket science. Things were pretty balanced RvR-wise before TOA - now they are talking about making Albion the weakest again by totally diluting our RAs between more classes than can fit in a group. I think it's like Konah said, they won't admit that we have too many ppl playing Albion - so they just make it very very PvE happy and make us weaker in rvr, and hope it fixes it a bit. They have tried offering /level, but that really isn't an option when SI Artifacts, Mlvls, crafting are taken into account - especially for the casual player (more of whom I think chose Albion).

After 2 years, I still can't think of a good way to fix population in-balances.

 

[CorNokZ]

Im sure mythic will fix everything with one wave of the magic wand

Agree. They have the time... Erhm... ?

 

[wittor]

if I just wanted RAs I would role an infil ><

aww

 

[Bracken]

I don't think it's just about balance - it's also about class/spec viability. If you only achieve balance by forcing every realm to have a perfect, very specific group setup then you end up with a glorified version of cs that appeals only to a narrow range of people - and the game won't survive in the long run. To me, the ideal is that you can have balanced fights (whether that be 1v1, 1fg or 4fg+) with a range of different classes and specs. You will always need a basic core (such as healing/ cc etc) - but outside of that the game needs to allow groups to compete with a range of different classes and specs. That way people can really enjoy a character of their choosing rather than being railroaded into a particular set up. If mythic manages to pull that kind of balance off then they really would ensure the game's long-term future.

 

[Asha]

What is popular with players is directly related to what supplies the most reward.

I hear players say that it is boring to take/defend keeps, and you see they are in a tank group. Those same players like to be in a group during a siege where the group is packed with cabalists and ice wizzies.

It isn't the fact that being in a siege is boring. They aren't doing anything different when a few cabbies join the group. The difference is rps. Something stops being boring when rps flow.

What players would those be? Sounds like you're making that up tbh. It's not people who run groups to play together and work together. The reason that anyone would like to be in a caster group during a keep take is that a tank group is USELESS for a keep take/defense. It has nothing to do with RPs - it's common sense. Why is that so difficult to understand? Personally, I find keep taking to be the most boring part of the game no matter what kind of group I am in or what kind of realm points I get. Keep defense can be ok, but as a cleric it's usually v v v dull. The only thing rvr-wise that is worse is wall fights.

Reward isn't only RPs, it's also enjoying the game. Enjoying working with your group to do something. Having a direct effect on the outcome by your choices and actions. In "Realm Warfare" - you don't get that as intensly as you do in smaller fights. Mythic can't get around that.

I don't know what people you are talking about, but I doubt you're talking about anyone who runs a "gank group".

If sieges gave high returns the leet groups would enjoy sieges.

If sieges gave high returns in terms of enjoyment, interaction (being able to have an effect on what is happening), then leet (whatever the hell you think that is) groups would enjoy sieges.

If the people you're talking about only cared to get RP for the sake of RPs, then they would never reroll, never try other realms. The other thing that people bitch about is the "leet" rerolling fotm ... well sorry but you can't have it both ways.

You will not balance this game in any way by trying to force "realm warfare" onto the people who enjoy playing with small groups of friends.

 

[Gordonax]

In the face of a zerg how do you tell if you made a differance?

Hmmm if you play to your classes strengths, you can make a difference in a zerg - as long as they numbers are roughly equal on all sides. In fact, some classes actually start to come into their own in longer fights. Necros start to become vital power sources, for example.

In a big battle, I occasionally drop into stealth, sneak round the back, and mezz/interrupt the hell out of anyone that looks like a healer. In 8vs8, the fight is over so quickly that that's not an option. In 4fg+ equal fights, it is - and it can make a hell of a difference to the overall outcome of the battle.

So yeah, you can make a different in a zerg fight - as long as you think about what you're supposed to be doing. And, of course, as long as the numbers are roughly equal: If it's 4fg vs 1fg, no one really makes any difference.

 

[Gordonax]

If sieges gave high returns in terms of enjoyment, interaction (being able to have an effect on what is happening), then leet (whatever the hell you think that is) groups would enjoy sieges.

Oh, I love sieges. But that's because, as a wall climber, I can have a real effect on the course of the siege. Not by jumping in and picking off the idiots who stand on their own, but by setting the perfect ground target and watching as the enemy inside is forced from the walls, from the courtyard, and into the inside - all before you've got the outer door down. Setting the best ground target possible is a point of pride for me. And of course, unless the earth wizzies are in my group, I get zero RPs for it

There's loads of different ways to get satisfaction out of the game that don't rely on being in a small group, and that don't rely on gaining RPs.

 

[Skilgannon]

If the people you're talking about only cared to get RP for the sake of RPs, then they would never reroll, never try other realms. The other thing that people bitch about is the "leet" rerolling fotm ... well sorry but you can't have it both ways.

Oh come on! Get real please.

Pray tell me why is it that gank groups hover around Emain/Odins?

Is it because Emain contains lots and lots of 'fair' balanced fights?

Is it because they only want to fight evenly matched opposition?

Surely, it would make more sense then for the PvP guilds to arrange a meeting in Snowdonia, Collory etc where other optimised groups could fight them.

That won't happen, you see, because it doesn't bring in the rps.

The point I am making is that if, hypothetically, Mythic decided that the only way to earn rps was by Realm based activities you would see the 'I don't like sieges crowd' happily smacking away on a keep gate.

People don't like doing things that aren't worth rps. Try dragging people atm from Emain/Odins kicking and screaming to retake Beno. They are not interested. If, however, there was 20k in it they would be incoming like greased weaselshit.

 

[Vindicator]

What players would those be? Sounds like you're making that up tbh. It's not people who run groups to play together and work together. The reason that anyone would like to be in a caster group during a keep take is that a tank group is USELESS for a keep take/defense. It has nothing to do with RPs - it's common sense. Why is that so difficult to understand? Personally, I find keep taking to be the most boring part of the game no matter what kind of group I am in or what kind of realm points I get. Keep defense can be ok, but as a cleric it's usually v v v dull. The only thing rvr-wise that is worse is wall fights.

Reward isn't only RPs, it's also enjoying the game. Enjoying working with your group to do something. Having a direct effect on the outcome by your choices and actions. In "Realm Warfare" - you don't get that as intensly as you do in smaller fights. Mythic can't get around that.

I don't know what people you are talking about, but I doubt you're talking about anyone who runs a "gank group".

If sieges gave high returns in terms of enjoyment, interaction (being able to have an effect on what is happening), then leet (whatever the hell you think that is) groups would enjoy sieges.

If the people you're talking about only cared to get RP for the sake of RPs, then they would never reroll, never try other realms. The other thing that people bitch about is the "leet" rerolling fotm ... well sorry but you can't have it both ways.

You will not balance this game in any way by trying to force "realm warfare" onto the people who enjoy playing with small groups of friends.

The needs of the Small group of Friends Do not out way the needs of the many 'Zerg' In this case. As Mythic have said time after time and this TL report just further confirms that as they want there TL'S thinking like that 2. Oh and while I do actually believe 'You' Asha, that you want to have fun in a 8V8 with your friends and a challenging Fight that Certain people really can make the Difference but please .......... I do not for 1 second believe that you represent the majourity of the 8V8 Mentality.

Quite Frankly its naive to even believe that, for the most part its people that want to Earn the maxium amount of Realm points, which = respect irl ofc, while killing many enemys equal if possible or More than equal if they can so they can boost there ego. Hence why they Roam Emain / Odins etc, why would a 8V8 Loving guild / People go to Emain to find a 'fun' 8V8 battle which for the most part get 'Added' on or just plain zerged ? If All of these people truely loved 8v8 combat and NOT the rps involved just the pure love of combat and who will win, who will play best ? Why Dont they just go to HW every nite ? Or talk over IRC / FH and arrange Guild fights for every nite with different setups / RAs etc ? Because they doesnt make very good amounts of rps and they cant buy all those cool RA'S etc.

But lets say you gave HUGE rp bonus's to keep sieges / Takes and generally having large fights < Battle groups hello der >, Then these people would quickly enjoy those situations all of sudden. The tank 'gank' groups would fade because lets face it, casters are better at sieges and Large Group combat I think its easy to agree. So these players would reroll to get a more optimized 'zerg farming' Groups and then im sure they would be very happy. As I said I do actually believe you asha that you like that and I know for a fact there are others out there like you BUT they are definelty the minority in this case, now is it fair to spoil the majouritys fun / gaming experience or the Fun of the ppl that prefer only 8V8? < Rhetorical Question really> Mythic will and have answered that so no point really.

I do actually prefer 8V8 fights btw but I do enjoy keep takes / The occasional EVENLY matched Zerg V Zerg. But I wouldnt expect Mythic to keep what 'I' Want as they are a compay that listen to there customer base, the biggest 1 in every case.

Oh come on! Get real please.

Pray tell me why is it that gank groups hover around Emain/Odins?

Is it because Emain contains lots and lots of 'fair' balanced fights?

Is it because they only want to fight evenly matched opposition?

Surely, it would make more sense then for the PvP guilds to arrange a meeting in Snowdonia, Collory etc where other optimised groups could fight them.

That won't happen, you see, because it doesn't bring in the rps.

The point I am making is that if, hypothetically, Mythic decided that the only way to earn rps was by Realm based activities you would see the 'I don't like sieges crowd' happily smacking away on a keep gate.

People don't like doing things that aren't worth rps. Try dragging people atm from Emain/Odins kicking and screaming to retake Beno. They are not interested. If, however, there was 20k in it they would be incoming like greased weaselshit.

Basically, This is True and sums it up pretty clearly.

 

[Asha]

Oh come on! Get real please.

I am real, that is how I play.

Pray tell me why is it that gank groups hover around Emain/Odins?

Is it because Emain contains lots and lots of 'fair' balanced fights?

yes, it is, yes, it does..

Is it because they only want to fight evenly matched opposition?

not for alb groups, but I think mids and hibs get alot of matched opposition - vs 2fg ect. We go there to fight those groups.

Surely, it would make more sense then for the PvP guilds to arrange a meeting in Snowdonia, Collory etc where other optimised groups could fight them.

well, you tend to get guards in those zones and it's v hard to co-ordinate any kind of rvr thing, several ppl tried including me. It's easiest to go to emain or odin.

That won't happen, you see, because it doesn't bring in the rps.

no.. becuase it brings hours of down time

The point I am making is that if, hypothetically, Mythic decided that the only way to earn rps was by Realm based activities you would see the 'I don't like sieges crowd' happily smacking away on a keep gate.

If it was the -ONLY- way to earn rps, sure - but not exclusively. Do you think people get RPs only for the sake of having them? No, it's so they can have more toys in rvr.

People don't like doing things that aren't worth rps. Try dragging people atm from Emain/Odins kicking and screaming to retake Beno. They are not interested. If, however, there was 20k in it they would be incoming like greased weaselshit.

I love how you know what everyone would do and how everyone would act. GoL make shit loads of RPs in keeps - we could easily go join them any time. We have alot of caster alts, but we don't cause we all hate keep fights. They don't so they do it.

Maybe you think like that, but not everyone does.

 

[Flimgoblin]

possibly two things that keep takes need then:

1. more things to do (when yer not a caster)

2. some reward for it.

I like taking/defending keeps, but when you've spent all night fighting keeps and got a massive 2k RP whilst someone who's spent the same time in emain makes 20k and comes out with lots of flashy new realm abilities after a while it makes you start to think "why bother?"

 

[Konah]

Would the leet Guilds say, 'No! We are not going to participate in sieges! We prefer running 1fg and having 'fair' fights. We don't earn any RPs but we're happy.'

hehe, this is a good point. but believe it or not, its not about the rps, at least not for me, its about the combat.

if all i wanted was rps i would always go where i could find the most cosantoirs and skiltvatkens to steamroll without challenge or fear of losing unless outnumbered 2-3:1

challenge is good

competition is good

zerging pays very little of either.

 

[Konah]

Why Dont they just go to HW every nite ? Or talk over IRC / FH and arrange Guild fights for every nite with different setups / RAs etc ? Because they doesnt make very good amounts of rps and they cant buy all those cool RA'S etc.

nope, because its boring.

the whole point is u don't know who u gonna meet over that hill, u don't know what RR they will be, u don't know what grp setup it will be and finally u don't know what guild it will be. heard of the thrill of the hunt..?

it can take hours, days or even weeks to find a really really good fight but when u do find it u know

and it makes it all worthwhile :wub:

 

[Asha]

The needs of the Small group of Friends Do not out way the needs of the many 'Zerg' In this case.

The needs of 5 single fgs do equal the needs of 5fg playing together. That wasn't my point anyhow.

As Mythic have said time after time and this TL report just further confirms that as they want there TL'S thinking like that 2. Oh and while I do actually believe 'You' Asha, that you want to have fun in a 8V8 with your friends and a challenging Fight that Certain people really can make the Difference but please .......... I do not for 1 second believe that you represent the majourity of the 8V8 Mentality.

*shrug* maybe I don't. That is the mentality of the people I play with in BF and out. It's the mentality of the ppl I enjoy to fight vs. I don't know who is "gank groups" or "leet" or "rvr guilds" to anyone else, but the ppl I play with play for fun, not to just own.

Quite Frankly its naive to even believe that, for the most part its people that want to Earn the maxium amount of Realm points, which = respect irl ofc, while killing many enemys equal if possible or More than equal if they can so they can boost there ego. Hence why they Roam Emain / Odins etc, why would a 8V8 Loving guild / People go to Emain to find a 'fun' 8V8 battle which for the most part get 'Added' on or just plain zerged ? If All of these people truely loved 8v8 combat and NT the rps involved just the pure love of combat and who will win, who will play best ? Why Dont they just go to HW every nite ? Or talk over IRC / FH and arrange Guild fights for every nite with different setups / RAs etc ? Because they doesnt make very good amounts of rps and they cant buy all those cool RA'S etc.

zzzz have you ever tried to arrange something cross realm ? It's very hard. It's hard enough to get our guild group up much less co-ordinate that w/ other realms. People have tried about 10 times that I know of... it never works. So we go to emain or odin in hope of finding a good fight. And we get them sometimes. I play late at night so we get them more then.

Lets just say that I am naive, and that you are bitter cause we don't agree.

But lets say you gave HUGE rp bonus's to keep sieges / Takes and generally having large fights < Battle groups hello der >, Then these people would quickly enjoy those situations all of sudden.

No, we wouldn't. I won't put down why cause it's not nice.

The tank 'gank' groups would fade because lets face it, casters are better at sieges and Large Group combat I think its easy to agree. So these players would reroll to get a more optimized 'zerg farming' Groups and then im sure they would be very happy. As I said I do actually believe you asha that you like that and I know for a fact there are others out there like you BUT they are definelty the minority in this case, now is it fair to spoil the majouritys fun / gaming experience or the Fun of the ppl that prefer only 8V8? < Rhetorical Question really> Mythic will and have answered that so no point really.

I think you're wrong. I don't think that ppl would suddenly start playing in huge groups. I don't think I am in a minority. I think alot of ppl don't LIKE being surrounded by loads of people where your imput to the situation decreases with each person added. I know alot of people who feel this way.

I think that maybe the USA player base does play alot differently than we do.. but not sure cause I haven't played there.

If it was brought in that you had to have 4 or 5 fg to survive in RvR I think that the guilds that I think of as "rvr" guilds would insta quit. That isn't one or two groups of 8, that is 10 or 11. That is a huge hit to a server.

 

[Vindicator]

nope, because its boring.

the whole point is u don't know who u gonna meet over that hill, u don't know what RR they will be, u don't know what grp setup it will be and finally u don't know what guild it will be. heard of the thrill of the hunt..?

it can take hours, days or even weeks to find a really really good fight but when u do find it u know

and it makes it all worthwhile :wub:

Alternate Locations / Guilds / Players / Times etc.

The 1 Golden Rule being, Dont add on another Fg Fight .

I think your just avoiding the issue really, if the ppl that REALLY loved the thrill of fg combat wanted they could easliy Set up a League of Extradorinary Guilds ^^ < TM TM TM TM >.

In saying that, I do love a great fg Fight and those fights that go on for 10 mins and you dont know who will make the first mistake / Run out of power pots! ^^.

Perhaps you do love just fg combat Konah but im sure your not being completely honest with your self and others. its Fun to get lots of rps so you can get nice RAs and be The 'First' RR10 Merc, in example to your self , so yes while I agree with you fg V fg > Zergs, you cant just Dismiss them and there is actually fun to be had in partaking in EVENLY matched Zerg warfare and keep fights from time to time. Im sure you remember the Sieging in Mid, not when albs were relic zerging, but when there was like 3 weeks of just constant Mid Keep sieging. Epic battle after Epic Battle and yes after 3 weeks straight I was a little sick of it! but it was amazing, fun and different.

 

[Vindicator]

.

Your Guild and You.

As for your enemys that enjoy it also, they would be the equivalents in the other realms that are Hardcore only FG v FG Kind of players.

If you and everybody you know and play with is honest I think you would see that not everybody plays the same game as you nor do they play the same way. As I said earlier, I dont particularly Enjoy Zergs. I prefer fg action tbh with you but If I as a Leader I had to make a Desicision that would benefit most of my population I would take that option. As would a Company, As would a Dictator, As would a President etc.

Mythic Could easly make this a FG game, Medal on pad = Port to RR7+ BG with 16-32 player cap < incl BB's etc >.

Medal to Free for All BG, 16-100 cap, 16 cap and so on.

Not Everybody you 'play' Against / With have the same morals / beliefs than you regardless of agreeing with anybody. No 10 fgs of fg only peeps wouldnt be that badly missed at all. Within those 10fgs you will lose a whole lot of wankers + some nice ppl 2 ofc . If anything it would improve the game play of the 'plebs' you farm / get zerged by.

And ye your rite those rvr guilds would quit if it became a min of 5fgs to play and I know few guilds that could actually put 5fgs out on the battlefield. SS Could thou and has before \o/, In PvE Mostly!

 

[Konah]

Perhaps you do love just fg combat Konah but im sure your not being completely honest with your self and others. its Fun to get lots of rps so you can get nice RAs and be The 'First' RR10 Merc, in example to your self

rest assured i most definately do not RvR to see that number on my char screen get bigger. i do it cos i like killing other players.

the number getting larger is a (nice) by-product of that killing by which i can measure my performance and enables me to buy tools which help me kill more and better (also nice)

its not 'just' fg RvR i like either, i enjoy the large scale BALANCED battles and keep sieges too upto a point. there isn't alot a merc can do at a keep other than door bashing but give me my wiz or my scout and some buffs and im in heaven

i never claimed to be the first RR10 merc, my old sig said 'first 50 merc' which i was, on this server. its not a race to RR11. i RvR when i'm enjoying RvR, if i'm not enjoying it, or feel like i'm 'going thru the motions' i don't do it. coulda been RR11 aloooong time ago if all i wanted was rps.

 

[Tay]

Oh come on! Get real please.

Pray tell me why is it that gank groups hover around Emain/Odins?

Is it because Emain contains lots and lots of 'fair' balanced fights?

Is it because they only want to fight evenly matched opposition?

Surely, it would make more sense then for the PvP guilds to arrange a meeting in Snowdonia, Collory etc where other optimised groups could fight them.

That won't happen, you see, because it doesn't bring in the rps.

The point I am making is that if, hypothetically, Mythic decided that the only way to earn rps was by Realm based activities you would see the 'I don't like sieges crowd' happily smacking away on a keep gate.

People don't like doing things that aren't worth rps. Try dragging people atm from Emain/Odins kicking and screaming to retake Beno. They are not interested. If, however, there was 20k in it they would be incoming like greased weaselshit.

Fair point.

Many a time I have seen 130+ albs in emain running around in FG's and Mini Zergs and even big feck off zergs, some bright spark says hey lets do DC and get DF for some farming, 5mins later 30 odd people are smacking on the door then they get fed up and leave, the infils inside get left behind dragging pops away from DC.

So why is it out of a CG with 100+ people in it less than 30% turn up take a keep, dare I say it slows the RP's down a bit...

So yeah, yer right Skil

 

[Filip]

dont want to get involved in the going disqusion here .. but just want to note that in an equal figth it will get more complicatet the more ppl you bring to it ...

going from 1v1 - 8v8 - 50 vs 50 .... thing is when ppl are in large numbers they tend to start sleeping .. going afk .. thinking this tiny AE dot wont change much and i better cast it fast so i get lots of rps .. etc.. etc ...

the best figth i ever had in daoc was a 2fga vs 2fgh vs 1 fgm vs 1fgh vs 1fga vs 1-2 fgm ....

(in the order of appereance) the figth lastet 15+ min (3x mcl used) and was won becuase of a few pallies on the alb side played like supermen...

 

[Skilgannon]

The claims that the majority only want fg vs fg wouldn't stand up to much scrutiny.

It is very similar to another argument regarding the granting of free RAs at RR5. The claim was made that RR5 is easy to obtain, when the facts point to the exact opposite. Most players will never make RR5.

It is hard to comprehend that, for some, RR5 is an impossible dream. Only 11% of all level RvR active 50s (across US+EU) are RR5+ (though Excalibur is 20.6%). Equally, it can be hard to comprehend that others, incl the game's designers, want something that you don't.

All of the TLs have highlighted the same problems, in that the game currently does not promote nor reward the intended aim. I certainly hope for a more varied and exciting siege warfare componant in the new expansion, but any improvements will be pointless unless there is more to keeptaking then getting DF.

Even if taking keeps makes travel across the Realms easier, that is simply not enough. Players will rely on others to take/retake much as they do now. There has to be not just a reason, but also a reward, to taking a keep. I also believe that the reward must also not be generic i.e. it must only reward those who participated.

We have to remember that the majority are not in RvR Guilds, they are not in optimum groups and they are not RR5. Some snippets have been leaked to suggest that changes are planned. I guess we just have to wait and see.