A nice 1 one 1 in DF made me think

[Vaar]

Yep, I actually do think sometimes... Background part is just some ranting to get me started

Background: I a Thane (yey), RR1 (yey'er) who was doing some DF-farming the other night. Was getting ready to log for the nigth when I suddenly caught a glimpse of the back of an solo alb in a distance... Just logging on is my guess. It later turned out that he was a paladin, eagle Knight (RR5 I think? remember I'm a noob). WELL, what the heck I thought, I just as well give it a shot. I got close enough unseen. And initiated with some DD's. No wonder this cought the pala's attention and he was quick to come sprinting my way. DD's landed, and so did both instas, so I had a fair head start when we started our little block, slam, 2H, hit, hit 1H, block, stun, block, tiny hit, block, inta, block, tiny hit... combat. Slow but kinda strangly facinating... Heh. Good part is, I was self buffed, he was not, and my hammer went proc crazy, and I got him down to approx, 5 % when he IP'ed. Quite some time later I died, and he /saluted me, and ran off. I released, and logged kind off happy even though I lost. A good long 1v1 do that to you..

What im wondering is: Should there be an BIG(er) reward, for killing off much higher RR enemies. In my view I was about to win the fight, but his RR saved him and killed me. Fair and square. NP.

1. ARE there incorporated a code which give higher rp return for killing high RR?
2. Should this (if exsitant) bonus be increased to a definatly noticable level... For inctance 5*RP to kill an RR5, 10*rp to get an RR10, or whatever? Ok thats probably over the top, but you hopefully see my point.
3. Am I'm a inexperienced noob which is missing out on some vital points in my rambling?

Views will be appriceated.

 

[Silverblast]

At lower RR you need less RPs to rise in RR, so it pretty much balances out already.

 

[Aloca]

And you get 1 more rp for each realm level he is

 

[Vaar]

And you get 1 more rp for each realm level he is

Well Yay again...

I know ofc that the RR-lvls are scaled. But in my line of thinking...
Maybe it would be an small initiative for higher RR to pick more equal fights.. In my previous example I choose the fight, and I hold no grudges to the pala at all. But in my understanding. Low RR are more or less viewed upon as easy RP-fodder. And quite correctly btw. Our 2 fg (starting of an keeptake force) got seriously rolled by a FG of well played, higher RR albs the other day.

IF the reward of killing an High RR were noticable. Lets be a bit more "realistic" and say RP= 3 times RR10, 2 times RR5, of that of a RR1. (Numbers is really just for the sake of argument).

1. If a low RR group (or a solo) managed the miracle of killing off a much higher RR, the reward should be BIG... It's more or less impossible, giving equal numbers.
2. The good RvR gank group could, if they "choose" more worthy advessarys get more RP, than for killing noobs like me...

I do not have in mind a huge nerf in RP's for taking out RR1 noobs. More in the line of a decent bonus for the high RR.

 

[Flimgoblin]

currently you're far better going after "sheep" for RP than the difficult groups -

a near-100% win ratio for the same RP as a 50% win ratio...

double the value of killing high RR groups and suddenly it starts to be a bit more tempting to kill them (other than for the "challenging fight" factor that some of the gankers go in for)

 

[Silverblast]

Its all in the fun and challenge mate..

 

[Pin]

... some of the gankers ...

stlong typo

 

[Bernard]

It's like my rr3 friar ganking a rr6 bard eldrich duo.

Although at the end the bard killed me...

 

[Flimgoblin]

stlong typo

in that I spelled "all" as "some" or that I incorrectly used the "g" key?

 

[Skilgannon]

Our 2 fg (starting of an keeptake force) got seriously rolled by a FG of well played, higher RR albs the other day.

RR plays a big part. RAs give an advantage, higher DPS and AF give an advantage, the extra spec point per RR level gives an advantage.

I have often wondered if there is also some hidden game mechanics involved in RR. The ease with which you can takeout a lower RR player to me cannot be explained by the above factors.

A few examples. A couple of nights ago my group of 5 Albs headed HW following reports of Mids gathering at Beno. Running to Beno we ran straight into 10 Mids. The Mids didn't do anything particulary wrong. They didn't play badly, yet 1 min later they were dead and noone in our group had even come close to dying. They were Skiltvaktens/Isen Vaktens whilst we were mainly RR5/6.

Another example is a few nights ago I was jumped by 3 Hibs, all Brehons. Two tanks and a Bard should have finished me easily, and though I died it was a very long fight. They were not in epic, and they didn't fight badly.

Not everything, to me, can be explained by experience, gear, passives, .3% dps and +5/6/7 extra skill points. You do seem to hit alot harder and take alot less damage as you progress in rank.

I agree with the original poster. I would like to see RP awarded based upon the respective RR of the opponants.

 

[[NO]Subedai]

not a good idea imo.
a rr2 savage shuld get 7*rpts for killing my cleric solo.s
shuld be other way round

 

[Vaar]

not a good idea imo.
a rr2 savage shuld get 7*rpts for killing my cleric solo.s
shuld be other way round

Yep. Got to agree on that point. But imagine a RR2 cleric killing a RR7 sava... That should give an instant RR alone...

Well. Ofc its only an idea. And I feel its a decent one...

Low RR don't get affected much
Medium RR don't get affected much. (although arguably they can gain the most)
High RR don't get affected much

BUT ALL.. will have a ingame reward for beating a higher RR. All don't go to FH, if they manage to take down a higher RR. (sorry I just hate those posts..) AND I truly feel that If you take out Medde, or Bedde or whoever , you SHOULD get a bigger reward then for taking down a lowly Thane.

Not to sure if you can claim that it will benefit the alb/hib/mid zerg most though. Thats the one downside I can point my finger at... But then again, if those sorry RR1 zerging loosers, like myself, gain a few RR. They MAY feel more inclined to actually poke their noses out of APK... sorry... the portal keep, in somewhat smaller numbers every now and then.

 

[[NO]Subedai]

well there is a slightly higher reward atm..but its really neglagible.
summin like 50 extra rpts per rr wuld be good.
so 1.5k for rr10
and 1k for rr1
maybe a bit more but that wuld be good.

 

[Skilgannon]

But then again, if those sorry RR1 zerging loosers, like myself, gain a few RR. They MAY feel more inclined to actually poke their noses out of APK... sorry... the portal keep, in somewhat smaller numbers every now and then.

They do. The RR1 zerging losers undergo a strange metamorphasis at RR5 into highly principled, fg only players who spam 'Don't Add' and 'F**king zerging twats' , after a partial lobotomy removed the memory of where they got their early rps.

Bit of a generalisation, but true in many cases.

 

[emma]

How about make rp gains a bit like PvE. As an rr6 myself. Say i kill an rr10 i get 1k rp`s. Now if i kill an rr1 i get 500 rps.

Make it so kill equal or higher realm rank players gives max rp`s. kill players that are lower realm rank than you lowers the rp`s by 100 pts per rr level lower.

That would mean high rr gank groups wouldnt be getting there 2-4k rp`s for killing a low rr zerg and would possibly discorage them from taking on zergs because they would know it would give few rp`s for the effort needed to do it.

 

[Vaar]

Well thats one way of doing it... But IMO that would penalize high RR, and that would not be MY intention. I guess as I see it there are 3 (or more) possible routes if you should choose to make a diversified RP system.

1. Fixed RP for a lvl 50 RR0 char say 1000 (again for the sake of argument) + 100 bonus RP for each RR. ALL toons that kill a RR5 gets 1500 RP. Should be pretty simple to implement since this kind of bonus already excists. Just enlarge the numbers.

2. PvE solution. RP based on lvl of killer vs lvl of victim. Harder to calculate with several attackers, I would guess, and making climbing from RR5 and up EVEN more impossible than today. The most fair option you can argue, and still an option though.

3. Simple bonus for each RR higher than your own. RR1 kills RR 3 He gets 300 bonus RP, while a RR5 (or a RR10) killing the same RR3 will only get "normal" rp. Possible but a bit too much to expect from Mythic I recon?


As I see it only option 1 is possible as a "quick" fix. And by the logic that we have learned from playing Daoc, the only solution (of my 3..) that is worth asking Mythic for. Still am wondering of what the outcome of such a change would be on live servers... More zerging, more fair fights, no change in "infrastructure" but easyer to get to RR5, more RR10?...

 

[XeffoInfil]

How about make rp gains a bit like PvE. As an rr6 myself. Say i kill an rr10 i get 1k rp`s. Now if i kill an rr1 i get 500 rps.

Make it so kill equal or higher realm rank players gives max rp`s. kill players that are lower realm rank than you lowers the rp`s by 100 pts per rr level lower.

That would mean high rr gank groups wouldnt be getting there 2-4k rp`s for killing a low rr zerg and would possibly discorage them from taking on zergs because they would know it would give few rp`s for the effort needed to do it.

but then if they ran into the zerg, they still wouldnt ignore em.

 

[Sepiritz]

Yes, imo, it should be a reduction in rp gained when a rr10 kills a rr1 player, but then maybe make an 'Excellent' bonus, or as they say in UT, Monster kill, or whatever.

 

[Drummer]

How about make rp gains a bit like PvE. As an rr6 myself. Say i kill an rr10 i get 1k rp`s. Now if i kill an rr1 i get 500 rps.

Make it so kill equal or higher realm rank players gives max rp`s. kill players that are lower realm rank than you lowers the rp`s by 100 pts per rr level lower.

That would mean high rr gank groups wouldnt be getting there 2-4k rp`s for killing a low rr zerg and would possibly discorage them from taking on zergs because they would know it would give few rp`s for the effort needed to do it.

Fighting a zerg should be fun.
And fun > rps ofc

 

[Nalistah]

if u dont count IP u won rr1 thanes are underestimated

and yeah.. if u kill a much higher ranked dude 1vs1 the reward should be abit higher...

 

[Tualatin]

let them balance PvP servers first, then think about this stuff

 

[[SS]Gamblor]

hey about 2 weeks ago i was defending Surs with my ickle lvl 45 scout , i was solo and nailed a chanter .. got 1040 rps for it .. made me smile =)

ofc i tryd the same thing witha animist and got my ass handed to me rater quickly


and no i was not b00fed in anyway

 

[Qaewin]

RR plays a big part. RAs give an advantage, higher DPS and AF give an advantage, the extra spec point per RR level gives an advantage.

I have often wondered if there is also some hidden game mechanics involved in RR. The ease with which you can takeout a lower RR player to me cannot be explained by the above factors.

A few examples. A couple of nights ago my group of 5 Albs headed HW following reports of Mids gathering at Beno. Running to Beno we ran straight into 10 Mids. The Mids didn't do anything particulary wrong. They didn't play badly, yet 1 min later they were dead and noone in our group had even come close to dying. They were Skiltvaktens/Isen Vaktens whilst we were mainly RR5/6.

Another example is a few nights ago I was jumped by 3 Hibs, all Brehons. Two tanks and a Bard should have finished me easily, and though I died it was a very long fight. They were not in epic, and they didn't fight badly.

I think experience plays a lot in the outcome of high rr vs low rr fights and whilst ra's +5/6pts to shield and experience seperately might not explain the difference combined they might.
On one of my first trips to emain I was duoing with another epic arms we were both buffed and were rr1 or low rr2 but both 50. An rr 7 bard came along and mezzed us both..he then killed my m8 by dding sprinting then dd sprinting again and healing himself when necessary, he then did the same to me. We hadn't bothered with resist buffs and probably had low resists. I didn't know bards had end regen at that stage so both me and my m8 wasted our end sprinting to try and catch him after the initial dd broke mezz. My ra's at the time were aug dex and some mob and mop as were my m8s.
I wouldn't say we did anything very wrong but with experience we would have had end pots and have had purge. We would not have wasted our end trying to close him down when oor but waited till he did one of his drive-bys and slammed him and then used sprint to stay in range. Basically with more experience we would have won easily.
I also think that high rr's are a lot more likely to be bb buffed than low rr's which makes a big difference.
Another example of us duoing was after he rolled a merc he had ip and purge at the time as he only duoed with me and never fgvfg coz of the time at which he played. We were in odins when we both got mezzed by a grp of 2 enchanters a hero and a bard he had ip and purge up and mine were both down. The enchanters each nuked me but didn't debuff for the nuke my m8 purged and the hero, who was going after me, changed to ele as did the nukers, I was at 1/2 life, I sprinted to close down the distance to the enchanters who were standing together i killed the first while ele chased the bard then the 2nd who hadn't moved. Ele ip'd and was eventually slammed by the hero, but i was free to kill the bard and then we both killed the hero. With more experience they wouldn't have switched targets, finished killing me and then ele.
I think these things happen fairly often and in the fight where there are 5v10 and you still won, they would have made mistakes...not assisted, chosen the wrong target, kept swapping target etc.
I think the ease with wich you kill low rr oppenents is there inexperience primarily, and with the help of ra's better equip and the +from rr's does explain, it as well as them being less likely to be buffed.

 

[yaruar]

if u dont count IP u won rr1 thanes are underestimated

and yeah.. if u kill a much higher ranked dude 1vs1 the reward should be abit higher...

non buffbotted fights = thane >>>>>>>>> all

shame everyone is buffed to the gills these days...

 

[Vaar]

non buffbotted fights = thane >>>>>>>>> all

shame everyone is buffed to the gills these days...

Heh. With a possible exception for pallys

Then... Qaewin (heck I don't know how to quote twice in the same post... FH-noob and a Daoc Noob...)

"I think the ease with wich you kill low rr oppenents is there inexperience primarily, and with the help of ra's better equip and the +from rr's does explain, it as well as them being less likely to be buffed."

Yep. I agree. But in my line of thinking, a reward system for killing high RR will help those few who can manage to put up a nice fight (even at low RR), rather than noobs like me, who still are learning how to play.. (RR2 now btw).

To sum up that part:
High RR is more likely to play wise than a low RR.
Is bound to have better equipment in general.
Have his RA to fall back on if things go bad (IP-anyone?)
Is likely to have better buffs...

I think that a flat increase bonus for RR will be fair due to these points and more. Although there is no a=b logic between high/low RR and some of this factors, I feel that there is a obvious connection. Why not give a reward?

 

[PJS]

w is too far from g to be a typo

 

[Chilly]

I think it would be a bit daft really, there are characters who at rr1 are, relatively speaking, much more powerufl than other at r1. These chars would gain RPs MUCH faster and become higher rr and even more powerful far too quickly (read savages) while chars who perhaps are not as powerful at low RRs like nightshades, to be frank at low rr they suck ass, i routinely kill 1-3 of them simultaniously with my sorc in odins. But 1 ns could no way kill a high rr sorc solo, A high rr Ns could perhaps kill 2 1l1 sorcs though.

It would make the unbalanced nature of classes within a realm become more defined than they already are - which wouldnt be a good idea. Obviously a cleric isnt supposed to kill a hero on his own (even a SMITE!!11 cleric probably couldnt, just not enough dps) but heros can easily kill clerics.

If all classes were 100% equal in every ability then the system would indeed be fair and a very good idea (just as now if your lvl 45 you get 1K+ rp for a evel 50 and vice versa) but sadly this aint counterstrike with RPs

 

[Vaar]

This is touching some other points which are worth concidering...

First of all, and the subject from which I only have a teoretical and victim based point of view.

1. Stealthers. Yep. It's a HUGE differance in "deadliness" on a RR1 Infil and a RR1 NS. Since soloers will get the most direct effect of my suggestions, this may cause even more imbalance. But remember I'm suggesting a bonus for HIGHER RR. RR1 vs RR1 gives NO BONUS. And at RR5 stealthers are *cough* more balanced... I don't see that a RR2 infil can regularly expect to beat a RR7 shade. Simply DUE TO RA's. If he could pull it off... Give reward... (and keep nerfing dragonfang )

2. Some classes are better (apart from stealthers). SOLO- Hero > Cleric. Obviously. But if I had a medium RR cleric I would accept loosing to a lower RR hero, If I choose to be so stoopid that I soloed. I'm a noob still, but I havn't seen MANY solo clerics around. <Vaar batteling the extreeeeme urge to replace the word clerics with albs in last sentence>

I DO play a Thane, and BY THE GOD OF THOR, we sure as hell are not gods at low RR <Waiting for obvious remark to be inserted here>. A low Sorc is by far better. But in my perspective, even concidering the imbalances of the game, FEW roughly "simlilar-role" classes can outperform a RR7 at RR2, in a grouped setting. When I hit RR7, (late august 2011), I think I will be perfered over a RR2 sava from a groupleader with a tank spot left. At least I HOPE so...

But sorry... diversion... Your sorc may have a easyer (heh) ride up to RR10, because of ability to get in groups/class design, NOT because of a bonus for the ocational win over high RR's. Since there is a abundance of low RR players, but few High RR a change will not have HUGE impact.

But then If I kill you I'll get a bigger reward than if you kill me... (you could be sitting afk i odins... I can usually take out most pets if you give me a couple of minutes) and that is the fair part.

So in short (not my best skill obviously)

A reward system for killing off high RR -> good
Classbalance in daoc -> not perfect (heh)
The change -> No BIG impact. But a fair one.

 

[Belomar]

When I hit RR7, (late august 2011), I think I will be perfered over a RR2 sava from a groupleader with a tank spot left. At least I HOPE so...

At the current state of the game, I am sad to say that very few Mid RvR groups would take an RR7 Thane over an RR2 Savage. DAoC players in general, and Excalibur players in particular, are obssessed with the notion of "optimized groups" and will probably never invite a "non-vital" tank lacking determination, especially in competition against a Savage, regardless of realm rank.

However, I would not be too worried about this if I were you. The game is progressing and thanes will likely be FotM and quite powerful when New Frontiers hits us. Dark Age of Hybridalot is coming!