A look at the weapon choices for LA users (axe)

[Slu]

Originally made this post for VN Boards, but I guess some people here would like to see it as well, so here goes



Did some calculations regarding the different weapon choices LA users have. I've only done it with axes though.


Let's have a look then, shall we?

This first bit is something I did to help a guy asking for best set up with his TG axe. Was a 16.5dps 3.2spd axe.



4.2spd main hand + 3.2spd off hand with 250 qui = 2.294spd

3.2spd main hand + 2.9spd off hand with 250 qui = 1.891spd

Speed difference: (2.294 - 1.891)spd = 0.403spd

__________


I: 16.5dps 4.2spd MAIN HAND WEAPON + 16.5dps 3.2spd OFF HAND WEAPON


Unstyled damage:
U = DPS * SPD * 3 * (1 + (SPD – 2) * .03)

Main hand base damage: 16.5dps 4.2spd axe = 16.5 * 4.2 * 3 * (1+ (4.2-2)* 0.03) = 221.6214 base damage

Off hand base damage: 16.5dps 3.2spd axe = 16.5 * 3.2 * 3 * (1 + (3.2-2)* 0.03) = 164.1024 base damage

!Then we have to find the actual Left Axe base damage.
(Using 1LA all the time in my calculations)


Base Damage done with LA: Unstyled Cap * (0.625 + 0.0034 * LA spec)

Maind hand: Unstyled LA cap with 1 LA, 4.2 spd: 221.6214 * (0.625 + 0.0034 * 1)= 139.2668878

Off hand: Unstyled LA cap with 1 LA, 3.2 spd: 164.1024 * (0.625 + 0.0034 * 1)= 103.1219482

Unstyled LA damage from both weapons: 139.2668878 + 103.1219482 = 242.388836 and an actual swing speed of 2.294spd




II: 16.5dps 3.2spd MAIN HAND WEAPON + 16.5dps 2.9spd LEFT HAND WEAPON


Unstyled damage:
U = DPS * SPD * 3 * (1 + (SPD – 2) * .03)

Main hand base damage: 16.5dps 3.2spd axe = 16.5 * 3.2 * 3 * (1 + (3.2-2)* 0.03) = 164.1024 base damage

Off hand base damage: 16.5dps 2.9spd axe = 16.5 * 2.9 * 3 * (1 + (2.9-2)* 0.03) = 147.42585 base damage


!Then we have to find the actual Left Axe base damage.

Base Damage done with LA: Unstyled Cap * (0.625 + 0.0034 * LA spec)

Main hand: Unstyled LA cap with 1 LA, 3.2 spd: 164.1024 * (0.625 + 0.0034 * 1)= 103.1219482 base damage

Off hand: Unstyled LA cap with 1 LA, 2.9 spd: 147.42585 * (0.625 + 0.0034 * 1)= 92.64240414 base damage


Unstyled LA damage from both weapons: 103.1219482 + 92.64240414 = 195.7643523 and an actual swing speed of 1.891spd




Then you have to look at the style multipliers: (still using 250 qui and no haste)

First we have to find the effective speed:


Effective Speed = SPD * (1 – (Quickness – 60) / 500)) * (1 – Haste%)


I 4.2spd axe: 4.2 * (1 - 190/500) = 2,604spd

II 3.2spd axe: 3.2 * (1 - 190/500) = 1.984spd


Style multiplier: ((Growth Rate * Weapon Spec) * Effective Speed) / Unstyled Damage Cap

Using an effecitve CS spec of 44.

Let's take Garrote as an example:
Growth value for Garrote is 0.75. Using the CS spec as weapon spec.


I Style Multiplier using 16.5dps 4.2spd axestyle = garrote) = ((0.75 * 44) * 2,604) / 139.2668878 = 0.617031093

II Style Multiplier using 16.5dps 3.2spd axestyle = garrote) = ((0.75 * 44) * 1.984) / 103.1219482 = 0.6348987887


Hitting a target with no absorb / resists we get:

I 16.5dps 4.2spd axe:
Style bonus: +85
Total damage with main hand: 224 damage

Add in off hand damage (main hand styled damage + off hand base damage): 224 + 103 = 327 damage


II 16.5dps 3.2spd axe:
Style bonus: +65
Total damage with main hand: 168 damage

Add in off hand damage (main hand styled damage + off hand base damage): 168 + 92 = 260 damage



Final note!

Looks good, but now we have to look at the actual swing speed and look at the dps again.

I gives 327 damage every 2.294 second, ie: 327 / 2.294 = 142.5457716 damage per second


II gives 260 damage every 1.891 second, ie: 260 / 1.891 = 137.4933897 damage per second



SUMMARY:
So the best choice for you is clearly going with 16.5dps 4.2spd MAIN HAND and the 16.5dps 3.2spd TG axe in your off hand.




Note! If you can, you SHOULD use Gazsi's Bearded Axe because it's 16.2dps 2.4spd. This will bump off hand damage up and hte combo will be even better.



IMO most of the TG axes are just crap to us LA users, so don't waste money on them unless you really really want them because of the looks or something like that.


If there has been any recent changes to the TG axes lately, then I might be wrong, but from what I know at this time, the other axes simply aren't worth using.

_______________



Just to give you the best choice avaliable for us SBs, after all we need all the help we can get:

(4.2spd main hand + 2.4spd left hand with 250 qui = 2.046spd)

Unstyled damage:
U = DPS * SPD * 3 * (1 + (SPD – 2) * .03)

Main hand base damage: 16.5dps 4.2spd axe = 16.5 * 4.2 * 3 * (1+ (4.2-2)* 0.03) = 221.6214 base damage

Off hand base damage: 15.0dps 2.4spd axe = 15.0 * 2.4 * 3 * (1 + (2.4-2)* 0.03) = 109.296 base damage


!Then we have to find the actual Left Axe base damage.

Base Damage done with LA: Unstyled Cap * (0.625 + 0.0034 * LA spec)

Maind hand: Unstyled LA cap with 1 LA, 4.2 spd: 221.6214 * (0.625 + 0.0034 * 1)= 139.2668878 base damage

Off hand: Unstyled LA cap with 1 LA, 2.4 spd: 109.296 * (0.625 + 0.0034 * 1)= 68.6816064 base damage

Unstyled LA damage from both weapons: 139.2668878 + 68.6816064 = 207.9484942 and an actual swing speed of 2.046spd


Then you have to look at the style multipliers: (still using 250 qui and no haste)

First we have to find the effective speed:


Effective Speed = SPD * (1 – (Quickness – 60) / 500)) * (1 – Haste%)


4.2spd axe: 4.2 * (1 - 190/500) = 2,604spd


Style multiplier: ((Growth Rate * Weapon Spec) * Effective Speed) / Unstyled Damage Cap

Using an effecitve CS spec of 44.

Let's take Garrote as an example:
Growth value for Garrote is 0.75. Using the CS spec as weapon spec.


Style Multiplier using 16.5dps 4.2spd axestyle = garrote) = ((0.75 * 44) * 2,604) / 139.2668878 = 0.617031093


Hitting a target with no absorb / resists we get:

16.5dps 4.2spd axe:
Style bonus: +85
Total damage with main hand: 224 damage

Add in off hand damage (main hand styled damage + off hand base damage): 224 + 68 = 292 damage

This gives 292 damage every 2.046 second, ie: 292 / 2.046 = 142.7174976 damage per second


So one of the best weapon set up you can have if you got no haste buff is still the slowest main hand weapon and the fastest off hand weapon you can find, ie 16.5dps main hand 4.2spd + 15.0dps 2.4spd off hand weapon.
Yes it sucks that our fastest craftable off hand weapon is only 15.0dps, but it's still one of the best choices for LA users.
One advantage with this choice is that you swing the fastest possible, minimizing the chance of them landing reactionary styles on you. You get you main damage from MAIN HAND, which will hit more often than the off hand will, so even though your off hand misses from time to time, the main hand will still deal out much damage at a fast swing speed.


Note! If you can, you SHOULD use Gazsi's Bearded Axe because it's 16.2dps 2.4spd. This will bump off hand damage up and hte combo will be even better. I'll show you later in the post.


If you're using a 16.5dps 4.2spd axe in Main Hand and a 16.5dps 2.9spd axe in off hand it will be like this:

(Using the main hand numbers I got from above.)

Off hand base damage: 16.5.0dps 2.9spd axe = 16.5 * 2.9 * 3 * (1 + (2.9-2)* 0.03) = 147.42585 base damage

Off hand: Unstyled LA cap with 1 LA, 2.9 spd: 147.42585 * (0.625 + 0.0034 * 1)= 92.64240414 base damage

Unstyled LA damage from both weapons: 139.2668878 + 92.64240414 = 231.9092919 and an actual swing speed of 2.201spd


16.5dps 4.2spd axe:
Style bonus: +85
Total damage with main hand: 224 damage

Add in off hand damage (main hand styled damage + off hand base damage): 224 + 92 = 316 damage

This gives 316 damage every 2.201 second, ie: 316 / 2.201 = 143.571104 damage per second

This gives you a bit higher damage per second than the hand axe combo did, but you're more dependant on hitting with your offhand as well since you swing a bit slower.




Done an example with the fastest TG axe, Tuscar's War Axe 16.5dps 3.0spd:

Off hand base damage: 16.5.0dps 3.0spd axe = 16.5 * 3.0 * 3 * (1 + (3-2)* 0.03) = 152.955
base damage

Off hand: Unstyled LA cap with 1 LA, 3.0 spd: 152.955 * (0.625 + 0.0034 * 1)= 96.116922 base damage

Unstyled LA damage from both weapons: 139.2668878 + 96.116922 = 235.3838098 and an actual swing speed of 2.201spd


16.5dps 4.2spd axe:
Style bonus: +85
Total damage with main hand: 224 damage

Add in off hand damage (main hand styled damage + off hand base damage): 224 + 96 = 320 damage

This gives 320 damage every 2.232 second, ie: 320 / 2.232 = 143.3691756 damage per second





NOTE!

Using Gazsi's Bearded Axe because it's 16.2dps 2.4spd. BEST POSSIBLE SET UP!



Off hand base damage: 16.2.0dps 2.4spd axe = 16.2 * 2.4 * 3 * (1 + (2.4-2)* 0.03) = 118.03968 base damage

Off hand: Unstyled LA cap with 1 LA, 2.4 spd: 118.03968 * (0.625 + 0.0034 * 1)= 74.17613491 base damage

Unstyled LA damage from both weapons: 139.2668878 + 74.17613491 = 213.4430227 and an actual swing speed of 2.046spd


16.5dps 4.2spd axe:
Style bonus: +85
Total damage with main hand: 224 damage

Add in off hand damage (main hand styled damage + off hand base damage): 224 + 74 = 298 damage

This gives 298 damage every 2.046 second, ie: 298 / 2.046 = 145.6500489 damage per second



Thanks for reading, and if you find anything that doesn't seem right, let me know please. I'm sure others are more into this than I am hehe

 

[Silenzio]

my head

 

[Harm]

Excuse me, but I seem to disagree slightly here. I'm no experienced SB, but wouldn't it be kinda not so smart to use a 25% bon weapon?

Additionally, the proc kinda sucks - and you will not be able to spellcraft stats to fit your own template..

Just a thought.

 

[taobitzz]

I think the new Gazsi axes come with 35% bon but aye the proc sucks

 

[Damon_D]

Originally posted by Harm
Excuse me, but I seem to disagree slightly here. I'm no experienced SB, but wouldn't it be kinda not so smart to use a 25% bon weapon?

Additionally, the proc kinda sucks - and you will not be able to spellcraft stats to fit your own template..

Just a thought.

Aye lot's of reason's not to use it too , one more is that its not 16.5 dps ( atleast its a reason if your rr5 )

 

[Harm]

Well the stats are good and might fit a template, but I wouldn't use it if it were 25% bon. Can you mayhep confirm that taobitz?

 

[klavrynd]

remember, if a mid thing does damage it gets nerfed, so don't bother

 

[Slu]

Originally posted by Damon_D
Aye lot's of reason's not to use it too , one more is that its not 16.5 dps ( atleast its a reason if your rr5 )

It's not 16.5dps, but if you look at my calculations you'll see that I have used it as a 16.2dps weapon, and even then you will find out that you will get a higher damage per second than the fastest left hand weapon (16.5dps 2.9spd) combined with the 16.5dps 4.2spd axe.


Currently it's listed as a 25% bonus weapon, but I haven't checked if it's raised to 35% bonus in the latest patches.
I know they've raised a lot of lvl 50 weapons to a higher bonus, so I would hope (!) that it would be the same with this axe.


Yes, you can't SC it yourself, but it's fully possible to use the axe in a decent SC template.


The worst thing about it atm, is whether or not it's still a 25% bonus axe and the crappy 5dps damage shield proc it has. Other than that it's your best bet when choosing the most damaging weapons for most reliable damage. imho


Of course when you add damage procs / dot procs into this, it will be a bit different results whether or not the procs go off or not. This calculation shows what the most damaging melee weapons there are without adding those "possible" damage factors.

 

[GrivneKelmorian]

Originally posted by klavrynd
remember, if a mid thing does damage it gets nerfed, so don't bother

amen

 

[Whisperess]

Forget it Slu - you recall the heat I got when pointing out that a DB axe did more damage than a cleaver? With proof of it as well?

Some people just don't want to learn. They keep looking at the DPS and the QUA value and happily swing their 'über' TG axes and later whine that they hit like young girlies. I say let them - more targets for you and me in Emain

 

[Damon_D]

Well its hard enough as it is to cap all stats/resists/ and skills imho , no need to make it even worse..yeah you might get 0,001 what ever dps more pr sec...but how much due you loos due to it having a poo proc and maybe having to sacrifice some resists or something ell's on your temp

 

[old.Hardbein]

Imo: NERF -> CUT'N'PASTE!

 

[Whisperess]

Originally posted by Damon_D
Well its hard enough as it is to cap all stats/resists/ and skills imho , no need to make it even worse..yeah you might get 0,001 what ever dps more pr sec...but how much due you loos due to it having a poo proc and maybe having to sacrifice some resists or something ell's on your temp

Capping everything I need without using a cloak on my SB using a crafted DB axe and a crafted Hand Axe. If you can't make a good SB template then try a little harder.

 

[old.Hardbein]

Originally posted by Whisperess
Capping everything I need without using a cloak on my SB using a crafted DB axe and a crafted Hand Axe. If you can't make a good SB template then try a little harder.

I wanna see u caping

5x11 skills
4x75 stat
200 hits
9x26 resists

^^without using Cloak

Post template

 

[Whisperess]

Originally posted by old.Hardbein
I wanna see u caping

5x11 skills
4x75 stat
200 hits
9x26 resists

^^without using Cloak

Post template

What on earth you need all 9 resists for? I said I'm "Capping everything I need ". I have envenom on separate glove/boots - saves me +11 skills, and you can't change poisons while in-battle anyway.

My template is:

Stats:
Str: 75 Int: 0 Hits: 198
Con: 76 Pie: 0 Power: 0
Dex: 75 Cha: 0
Qui: 76 Emp: 0

Resists:
Body: 27 Energy: 19 Crush: 26
Cold: 23 Matter: 22 Thrust: 26
Heat: 19 Spirit: 19 Slash: 29

Skills:
11 Axe 11 Critical Strike
11 Stealth 11 Left Axe

Without using a cloak, only using 99% qua leather as well - it's not like it's hard.

 

[Damon_D]

Well I like em all cap'd and atleast +6 env so i can poison by switching my jewel....and I dont like that crap axe

 

[Slu]

hehe I don't care Whisp. I just posted it here cause I thought a few people would be interested in seeing it. I knew that 90% of the people here on BW doesn't care about stuff like that, and that's fine. Their loss, their SB, their money etc

Anyway I got some PMs from people interested in this subject and many of them wanted me to do some calculations for them about what weapons would suit them best out what they had to choose from. Did calculations for various types of swords and different axes etc, but I cba to post it all here since it's no point doing so




Anyway I think Gazsi's Bearded Axe is 35% bonus as well. Didn't check the axe on my SB, but my healer had the Gazsi 1h from the same quest in his vault and that was listed as 35% bonus. So I'm 99% sure that the axe will also be 35% bonus.

(just for those wanting to use the axe)