A little Toa Wajn

[Shadowhawk]

I realise plenty of these Toa wajn posts have been created but the reason im making this one, is the perhaps naive belief that if we whine enough Mythic might actually take notice.
Im not however going to restrict myself to saying that Toa is just crap but rather try to give some reasons as to why i think its crap.

First of all its extremely time consuming and most of the trials has to be done with a significant amount of people. This has the obvious drawback that you need to be on raids to complete them, raids that can be hard to find. The raids also take a long time, and so i have recently lost a lot beautysleep over the past few days, which to be honest is affecting my rl atm.
Conclusion to this argument is that its quite hard for "non power players" to keep up with these ML´s.
The problem with this Toa drawback is that you need ML´s and artifacts to stay competetive in RvR. Its my strong belief that the extra style damage, speed and range what have you. Will even in its nerfed state make a diffrence in RvR.

I heard people saying that you dont need to bother with these ML´s and that you should just have fun. I do however mostly play solo classes (although i also grp dont take this as a stealther whine) and since there is no fun in loosing all the time you need to max your items skills and now with Toa also artifacts.
What im trying to say is that i think Toa has decreased the overall RvR experience for people who does not have the time to invest in Toa as some people do, imho thats crap.

The reason this is such a big problem for me, because i play daoc for social reasons mostly, and it appears that most of my friends do not share this view on Toa. (or they simply have more time to play it than i do and therefore does not share the same issues with lack of time and so ends up getting stronger as a result of Toa Vs the people who didnt have time to farm).
As a result of this daoc has now become a problem for me rather than a game to enjoy when i had the time to play it.
Im faced with 2 options .....

I can either grind these Toa ML´s and let my studies and real life in general suffer because of this.
Or i can prioritise real life higher and basically stay at a low ML with little or no artifacts and get owned by all the people in RvR who happend to have the time to farm these things.

In releasing Toa mythic faced me with these 2 choises and tbh i dont like either of them, for the time being i have lost the sense of enjoyment in a game i loved to play and recommended to people i met. Needless to say i stopped doing that.

Give me your thougts

(Finally a big thanks to all the people and officers in Herfølge Boldklub whom without i would never have made it this far into toa )

 

[Pin]

First of all its extremely time consuming

If it took a week to finish everything you'd be left with 51 weeks of same-old, same-old again. Time-consuming with a wide variety of things to do is VERY VERY good... It's what makes the game.

and most of the trials has to be done with a significant amount of people.

The VAST majority of ML steps can be done with 2fg or less, and many do not even need a full group.

This has the obvious drawback that you need to be on raids to complete them, raids that can be hard to find.

You only need a 'raid' for a very small number of ML steps. And with 300 people doing various MLs almost all the time, finding a group to do steps is a complete doddle.
Also, with little restriction on the order you do any of the quests, you can often just walk about, see people doing a step and join them for credit.

The raids also take a long time, and so i have recently lost a lot beautysleep over the past few days, which to be honest is affecting my rl atm.

The raids in entirity may often take a long time. But there is nothing saying you have to attend the whole raids, or that you have to do an entire ML in 1 session. Break it up. Do a couple of steps 1 day, a couple another day. Take your time.

Conclusion to this argument is that its quite hard for "non power players" to keep up with these ML´s.

Keep up? Well, of course there are going to be people who do things faster than you if you don't have time to waste. But so what? Why do you need to keep up? You don't. Relax and take your time. If you don't count yourself as a 'power-player' then why try to compete with them in speed?

The problem with this Toa drawback is that you need ML´s and artifacts to stay competetive in RvR.

No you don't.

Its my strong belief that the extra style damage, speed and range what have you. Will even in its nerfed state make a diffrence in RvR.

Of course these things make a big difference. But you don't need to have artifacts to get most of the bonuses and there's no rush to get to higher MLs to 'compete'.

I heard people saying that you dont need to bother with these ML´s and that you should just have fun. I do however mostly play solo classes (although i also grp dont take this as a stealther whine) and since there is no fun in loosing all the time you need to max your items skills and now with Toa also artifacts.

Most MLs really are crap for 'solo classes', but that's not really the point. The main point is that you do not need to get everything at the same time as the few who do have endless amounts of time to waste.

What im trying to say is that i think Toa has decreased the overall RvR experience for people who does not have the time to invest in Toa as some people do, imho thats crap.

How do you know that? Nobody who is spending masses of time in ToA is spending any time at all in RvR, and vice versa.

The reason this is such a big problem for me, because i play daoc for social reasons mostly, and it appears that most of my friends do not share this view on Toa. (or they simply have more time to play it than i do and therefore does not share the same issues with lack of time and so ends up getting stronger as a result of Toa Vs the people who didnt have time to farm).

If you play for social reasons then why complain about losing your fights? If you play for social reasons, why attempt to keep up with those who wish to wtfpwn asap? And if you have all these friends investing time into playing in ToA, how come you have problems finding raids?

As a result of this daoc has now become a problem for me rather than a game to enjoy when i had the time to play it.

Then I see it as your attitude towards it that needs to change. If you don't have the time to put in to keep up, then don't try to. Why care if you get there in 2 weeks or 4 months?

Im faced with 2 options .....
I can either grind these Toa ML´s and let my studies and real life in general suffer because of this.
Or i can prioritise real life higher and basically stay at a low ML with little or no artifacts and get owned by all the people in RvR who happend to have the time to farm these things.

You get owned by people who put more time into something? OMG. The end of the world!
Go for the 3rd option: Change your mindset and have fun - it's the only reason you should be playing the game in the first place.

Give me your thougts

Done.

 

[Sanka Coolrunnings]

Sorry bit off topic but i must say that is a hell of a nicely formed reply from Pin. /clap

 

[old.Whoodoo]

Think Im gonna use Pins answers as a template for all threads like this, well summed up bud, nice one!

There are 3 sides to DAoC, all must be fulfulled for any player;

Pure PvE - Gets you to 50
Pure RvR - Gets you to RR10
Hybrid PvE and RvR - This is where we all must find balance.

For too long ppl have had the PL to 50 way too fast, PvE is essentail to the game, nerfing it with PLing just takes away an essence from the game thats always been one of its major peices.

Some people like the PvE, the same amount like RvR, and some like me like all aspects of the game, and Mythic have done their utmost to keep us all happy.

These days too many players have been spoilt with the luxury of /level and places like malm for PLing to 50, and not playng the exp grind like we used to. PvE is an essentail part of the game, ToA is mainly for that. Frontiers is what you seek, and when it comes, us PvEers still wading through the MLs will be the ones left out, not being able to find groups, and watching as Emain fills once again.

Give back the good ols days before DF, spellcrafting and MLs, those were the real fighting days.

 

[Teh FnoRd]

The problem with this Toa drawback is that you need ML´s and artifacts to stay competetive in RvR. Its my strong belief that the extra style damage, speed and range what have you. Will even in its nerfed state make a diffrence in RvR.

You are really biting yourself in the arse here (no offence), 'cus you could just twist it pre-ToA to "Nerf RRs! I don't have the time get RR5+ and be the buildingstone of a fotm-ubergankgrp! I also don't have time to farm for my MP SC-suit!"
As said above, and in several of other threads, there will always be people who have more time to put in. Should not these people be awarded for that time?
And another referal to Pins thread! Top one imho.

And now for the good news: Teh Cheese is free!

 

[Greenfingers]

Hey Shadowhawk U old buggar !

well, tbh .. the way I see it, U should do the ML's at your own pace. Noone is forcing you to do the ML's faster, or keep up with the rest of the guild, and there is already a few that are left behind, one way or the other. Most of HB is currently doing ML4 atm and we are almost through with it, but there is a small group that are still doing ML1 or 2, so not to worry, U will have plenty of guys to do this with ... and tbh, Im gonna be one of em .. I still need ML's with my scoutiee

but lemme say that our intentions (Me and Freez) is to help U out as much as we can, don't doubt that

and don't worry, we will get U to ML10 in no-time !

Wub U Shadow ! :wub:

 

[Cracked]

Hmmm, dont agree with you Pin. Ill try to tell from my point of view.

If it took a week to finish everything you'd be left with 51 weeks of same-old, same-old again. Time-consuming with a wide variety of things to do is VERY VERY good... It's what makes the game.

Problem is that it doesnt take a week to finish everything, how long have u played ToA so far? lets say it will take you a couple of months atleast (if u play normal and not like a junkie).

The VAST majority of ML steps can be done with 2fg or less, and many do not even need a full group.

Maybe so, but the biggest problem then comes in next quote answer, there is almost always 1 or more steps that needs more then 2fg todo.

The raids in entirity may often take a long time. But there is nothing saying you have to attend the whole raids, or that you have to do an entire ML in 1 session. Break it up. Do a couple of steps 1 day, a couple another day. Take your time.

This is so not true. Take ml4 for example, (im at work and dont remember every single detail. numers may be a bit off) in order todo 4.10 u need to take all the other steps first. In order to do 4.8 you need to have done 4.7, 4.6, 4,3, 4.2 etc, because you get a certain stone from the main mob of those steps. The mob is usually highlvl so you need 2fg to kill them and they drop 1 stone. This means that in order for you to complete step 4.9 the raiding party needs to have all 6(!!) stones.

Im sry, but if u go to bed after finishing half of the steps you will have to do them all again (or atleast some) just to get hold of the stones again. So you stay up and hope that the carrier of ml4.2 stone dont LD so you have to do that horrible step again.

Now that was just 1 example, ml3 is a little diffrent but requires alot of ppl and a good 12hours todo... That is if all have done the pre-quests to complete it. ToA is full of this shit.

Keep up? Well, of course there are going to be people who do things faster than you if you don't have time to waste. But so what? Why do you need to keep up? You don't. Relax and take your time. If you don't count yourself as a 'power-player' then why try to compete with them in speed?

Well kinda agree here, but im tired of PvE and i love RvR. But still i have to do all this ToA PvE crap to compete.

Of course these things make a big difference. But you don't need to have artifacts to get most of the bonuses and there's no rush to get to higher MLs to 'compete'.

Ofcourse you need artifacts to compete in RvR, the opponent will have a HUGE advantage over u if u dont have the stuff. U know what i like? to be overpowered and win all the time in 3secs? No, i want a fair and even fight that lasts a looong time, that is the best fights no matter what gear, lvl, etc the opponent have. Usually thoose fights (in my case, as im a stealther mainly) are againt opponents like u Pin, medium-high RR that BaF and it takes a looong time to win/loose.

Most MLs really are crap for 'solo classes', but that's not really the point. The main point is that you do not need to get everything at the same time as the few who do have endless amounts of time to waste.

True with ML's not true with artifacts, and i still have todo alot of PvE just to compete again.

You get owned by people who put more time into something? OMG. The end of the world!
Go for the 3rd option: Change your mindset and have fun - it's the only reason you should be playing the game in the first place.

Exactly, so i dont play.

Currently i have farmed ml4 and 3 artifacts for 1 char and still need to farm a couple for my SB. Was trying to get belt of sun the a week ago, 2 mobs more to kill and go grab the belt, then i made a misstake and was killed. Rushed back to grab it only to find out that someone had already killed the 2 remaining mobs and snatched the loot. I dont blame him, i would have done the same. I blame ToA :kissit:

Maybe ill be back ingame in a week or 2, maybe not.

 

[Pin]

Problem is that it doesnt take a week to finish everything, how long have u played ToA so far? lets say it will take you a couple of months atleast (if u play normal and not like a junkie).

What problem? As I said, I don't want it to take a week or a month, or 4 months to 'finish everything'. I don't view PvE as a (torturous) pre-game that must be completed in order to progress on to the real game of RvR.
My point was: Why would you want to 'complete' it in such a short time as a month, if that then means you have 11 months of repetitiveness in RvR?

For too long this game has been a) boring pve to 50, then b) go rvr. Personally, I just get bored of the same-old RvR after a few months (so stop playing a character, level another and go RvR with that). Now, ToA has added a whole load of non-boring PvE, giving me a wider choice of fun things to do with my time. Why would I want to be finished in a month or two?

Take ml4 for example, (im at work and dont remember every single detail. numers may be a bit off) in order todo 4.10 u need to take all the other steps first. In order to do 4.8 you need to have done 4.7, 4.6, 4,3, 4.2 etc, because you get a certain stone from the main mob of those steps. The mob is usually highlvl so you need 2fg to kill them and they drop 1 stone. This means that in order for you to complete step 4.9 the raiding party needs to have all 6(!!) stones.
Im sry, but if u go to bed after finishing half of the steps you will have to do them all again (or atleast some) just to get hold of the stones again. So you stay up and hope that the carrier of ml4.2 stone dont LD so you have to do that horrible step again.

No. YOU don't need to do all those steps together in a raid. All that you need is to attend raids which do them. This can be 1, 2 or 3 raids. You can solo 4.1, 4.3, 4.4, 4.7. Do the rest over a number of raids.
If you end up repeating a step? Well, there's 20-30% mlxp in your pocket.

Now that was just 1 example, ml3 is a little diffrent but requires alot of ppl and a good 12hours todo... That is if all have done the pre-quests to complete it. ToA is full of this shit.

And you could spread ml3 over a week, doing 1 or 2 steps each day with different groups of people.

Then you can look at the other examples. Like ml5 - takes 1fg about 3 hours to do the whole 5.1-5.9 - 20 minutes per step. Join a second group to do 5.10 at some point.

Well kinda agree here, but im tired of PvE and i love RvR. But still i have to do all this ToA PvE crap to compete.

ToA PvE bares no resemblance to the previous PvE in the game, but nvm.



Anyways, not much point going over al the same things again. If you don't want to spend all your time in ToA PvE, then don't. Just go to RvR like before. You aren't going to find everybody running about at ML7+ with 4 artifacts each, kicking the crap out of you. You're probably going to find a lot more fun there as a soloer for the couple of months. Break it up. Take your time.

 

[Conchabar]

Give back the good ols days before DF, spellcrafting and MLs, those were the real fighting days.

so well put <tear in eye>

 

[oblimov]

hmmm why bother playing a game that makes u feel this way?

imo /quit

sure toa is time consuming but like pin said wheres the fun in something that takes a short time to complete?

why not start ur own ML raids when ur on and things?

ive not been playing a huge amount (more than usual ) and i managed to get to ML5 in about a week and a half just by joining raids for a few steps each day or starting my own raids with some help

wub ya miss, aloca n xfear

 

[Wabbit]

There are 3 sides to DAoC, all must be fulfulled for any player;

Pure PvE - Gets you to 50
Pure RvR - Gets you to RR10
Hybrid PvE and RvR - This is where we all must find balance.

The real problem is option 4 (the option we call jobless, schoolkids and students) who get 50, RR10 and ML10 before other people have even reached OR RR5 OR ML5.....put 8 of them in a group and the game called RvR is no fun anymore....and face it RvR is main goal or at least distraction from XP/ML-grinds...so if half the game aint fun anymore you better /quit

 

[Marczje]

The real problem is option 4 (the option we call jobless, schoolkids and students) who get 50, RR10 and ML10 before other people have even reached OR RR5 OR ML5.....better /quit

Yes, students have oceans of spare time, just like schoolkids and jobless people

 

[Wabbit]

kk lets state it a bit different: students/schoolkids/jobless could (if they choose to) to play 24/7...someone with a job doesnt have that choice....I know, from my own experience, that study is for some people....learn 5 hours per exam, pass exam, rest 3 months....for other people study or school is indeed as hard (or even harder) than a 40-hour job...

 

[Arindra]

Give back the good ols days before DF, spellcrafting and MLs, those were the real fighting days.

The reason pre DF SC ML etc DAoC was so much fun in rvr was because

1) Everyone was a noob - and therefore everyone was capable of what today would be seen as mind numbingly stupid mistakes, and the vast majority were not clued up on uber leet tactics, thus making battles longer.

2) You were experiencing situations and content for the first time, not the fiftieth.

It had nothing to do with the lack of pve content, the inability of crafters to make anything useful, or the prescence of game breaking balance problems and exploits.

1.68 > 1.37.

Obviously.

 

[Z^^]

.
. . .
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[Khalen]

ML3 is doable in 4 hours and 5 mins (tested that ourselves we even did Medusa 2 times as she spawned when someone walked outside the room )

There's just a rush with a lot of people to be highest ML as soon as possible. Take it at your own pace imo and forget about those Power-MLers. It's you that counts not them. And about artifacts, some are soloable and some need a FG or even more. I don't deny that they take some time to get especially when it's not a 100% drop. I'd wish Mythic took some more time in creating them as people will obviously camp em and might even farm em to sell em to others who never get the chance to try the encounter themselves (as some have ridiculous spawn times).

Just don't expect TOA to do miracles in RvR it's still you who needs to control the character and it's abilities and not the other way around...
(So you could have all the fancy stuff and abilities but if you don't know when and how to use it you still back at square 1 )

 

[Path]

I bet you moaners are among those who thought SC was a brilliant idea too - let's make everyone, noob or veteran, equally good after farming cash for a few hours. Horrific shit that. Now we finally get something interesting to do in PvE; DAoC been missing this from the very beginning Of course someone who plays more than you should smash you into the ground and walk over the remains, if you want a complete "level" field go play a FPS - a MMORPG should reward the time put into it.

 

[Nuked]

who needs to take time in toa we are only using it to get what we need for rvr anyway, if i could get it all finished in 25 minutes you're damn right i would! i just want to get back into emain :kissit:

 

[Moriaana]

I haven't even started ML stuff yet. I only have 1 artifact activated (and its prolly classed as a crappy one). I dont have any 'uber' drops from anything in ToA...but do I care? NO!
Why? 'cos I am having FUN! Just wish single line respecs was cheaper so i could respec and have MORE fun

P.S. Thats a hint btw. Anyone with a single respec going cheap msg me

 

[Cracked]

Well ok, ML's are not too bad. They dont give a super advantage in RvR so it's a nice thing for PvE lovers.

Easy fix for ToA, remove all scrolls and artifacts. Think about it, no more lvling artifacts, no more farming scrolls and no more waiting for spawns. And best of all, no more über items that u gotta have for RvR.

Dont remove the artifact encounters, let the PvE lovers get some type of bonus for killing them (like money or something).

 

[Trubble]

If you dont like PvE, you are faced with 2 options:

1. Go RvR now, because this is the time to enjoy unzerged emain. When the zerg comes back well equipped and with high MLs, you quit the game.

2. Quit real life for a month or two, and join in TOA while there is momentum. Because it will definately take you longer time to get this stuff done once the majority has passed it (perhaps with the rare artifact camping as exception). After that the game will go back to the usual competitive state for you, that you were used to before.

For a RvR guy none of these options are optimal... but ToA is a PvE expansion, nothing you can do about it. Maybe the RvR guys will be the guys having the most fun in the next expansion.

 

[yaruar]

For a RvR guy none of these options are optimal... but ToA is a PvE expansion, nothing you can do about it. Maybe the RvR guys will be the guys having the most fun in the next expansion.

I doubt it there seems to be a move within mythic to remove teh dominance of gank groups from RvR and move back to a model of largescale battles.
I think most of the 8v8 advocating RvR freaks will just go back to playing wallhacked CS when frontiers comes out.

 

[Sheph]

Try to find out why you play the game.

Stop tryin to judge yourself by what other people accomplishes. You said yourself u cant play as much as a powergamer. Then why do u expect to do things as fast as powergamers ?

There will be ML raids for a long time. People miss steps and will do MLs for their alts too.

Most important is that if it doesnt come to you u have to go grab it yourself.

 

[Gef]

The majority of the ML encounters are actually not that fun, okay one in a handfull are interesting (Chess anyone? ) other than that they are bog standard beat on this mob till it dies, but remember to do this this and this or you get blown up and you have to spend ages getting organised again. It makes it seem more like a chore, probably exasperated by the fact that we are just following guides and not actually trying to figure anything out.

Can be frustrating! Very frustrating, I understand totally why people are getting hacked off with it. Most people just want to get it over and done with so they can carry on as they were before, but the grim realisation that it will take a VERY long time to get back to a state where they are as good as they need to be to compete realistically in RvR, adds to the frustration.

You talk about time, your right we do have all the time in the world and there is no real rush to get anywhere. That really isnt the point, when you spend 3 nights solid trying to kill one stupid mob to get one step in a ML, it really dawns on you how much wasted time your going to have to put in. Not time when your actually going to be doing something productive, but time just stood around, not making money, exp or basically anything beneficial. In fact most of the time you actually lose money due to releasing after yet another failed attempt.

I preferred levelling to be honest, at least you had a real immediate sense that you were actually doing something productive. With ML's all I hear is about a raid thats been going on for a few days without success and I just dread the day(s?) when I have to do it.

Other than that I think ToA rocks, artifacts are cool no question, new graphics and abilities etc all good additions. Just ML's are not very well thought out to be honest.

 

['Shy]

Give me your thougts

/comfort Shadowhawk

:wub:

 

[Chunky]

It seems to me that your only playing the game to do RvR. This is not how the game was designed, IMO it was designed to have a good balance of RvR & PvE. If you hate PvE that much i think you should alsk yourself why your playing the game.

Chunk...

 

[Asty]

It seems to me that your only playing the game to do RvR. This is not how the game was designed, IMO it was designed to have a good balance of RvR & PvE. If you hate PvE that much i think you should alsk yourself why your playing the game.

Chunk...

Cause only daoc has RvR?