1.62h o_0

[Ensceptifica]

Originally posted by Pin
There's 5 straight misses, 18 absorbed by bt, 6 shield blocks and 11 hits...


what point were you making?

I was wondering the same thing ( : It tells something about pbt being broken even though an arrow is blocked (a bug which I'm not sure exists on Excal too), and it tells me an archer will have a hard time hitting a warden who's cast bladeturn in a 1-1 fight. Not really saying anything about group situations or about the chance to hit others protected by the warden's pbt.... was nice to read all the same (;

 

[Ensceptifica]

Originally posted by Strapon Sally
yeah i mean his point is great 29 of 40 shots missed/bt/blocked, but hey nothing is wrong

In a 1-1 situation... meaning the archer can just walk up to the warden and melee him to death anyway, assuming the archer is a fast melee weapon user ( ;

 

[Ensceptifica]

Originally posted by loxleyhood
I think that archer miss rates should be decreased depending how close you are to your target. Theres nothing more annoying than slamming, moving behind, and missing your shot on a perfectly stationary target 5 inches away.

Not a bad idea imho... take a point in the middle, decrease the chance to hit when further away, and increase to hit when nearby... longshot ignoring the penalty for moving away ofcourse... or maybe introduce a Point Blank RA to allow increased to-hit chance when in close range (like in D&D).

 

[loxleyhood]

Also, this is just a shot in the dark, or a longshot (or whatever archery pun you care to use ) but do you think the shield block rate is so high on arrows because arrows are lvl1 items?

 

[<Harle>]

Originally posted by Strapon Sally
try geting something better to try and convince yourself and only yourself pbt wasnt one of the main problems for an archer.

Archers were the kings of RvR before the nerf-bat hit them. pbt was allready in the game back then. How come it only became a problem after the nerf ? If pbt was making archers useless then they would never have ruled...

 

[Ensceptifica]

Originally posted by loxleyhood
Also, this is just a shot in the dark, or a longshot (or whatever archery pun you care to use ) but do you think the shield block rate is so high on arrows because arrows are lvl1 items?

I block about 1 in a 987938457987 melee attacks and have yet to block an arrow shot by a player, so I dunno ( ; I block NPC arrows a lot more often in any case.

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by Pin
There's 5 straight misses, 18 absorbed by bt, 6 shield blocks and 11 hits...

I would also point out that (due to the order of resolution of combat events) for this sample of 40 attacks, there is..

15% block rate (unspecced shield, etc)
14.7% miss rate (i.e. not much different from normal melee)
62.1% 'BT rate'



And you'll see that it was impossible for the archer to actually kill the warden, even if the warden does nothing but stand there and heal when he can (twice the archer ran out of end and was no longer able to shoot) - and I'm pretty certain the archer would lose in melee to the warden

 

[loxleyhood]

Wardens can't spec in shield right? That means you have 3% chance to block on anything. And theres no difference between pc and npc arrows.

 

[Ensceptifica]

Originally posted by loxleyhood
Wardens can't spec in shield right? That means you have 3% chance to block on anything. And theres no difference between pc and npc arrows.

Aye. Still in my experience, which I can't support with screenshots or logs, I block NPC's (like keep guards) a lot more often, both in melee and vs archers. Even if the NPC's are orange con. Ofcourse NPC's usually aren't buffed; maybe that's what's causing the difference.

 

[Mirhen Morkir]

The point i was making was not to show definative figures for PBT/block/miss, but to show that the original screenshot posted meant nothing because you could not tell a true miss from a pbt miss, and therefore you could not say that all you misses are pbt, you could also not say that all your misses where 'true' misses.

If, from your screenshot you can prove nothing then it proves nothing and your argument gains nothing from it.

As for the chance of missing 6 times on the trot, it's not hard, ask a warden we miss loads

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by loxleyhood
Wardens can't spec in shield right? That means you have 3% chance to block on anything. And theres no difference between pc and npc arrows.

base block chance is higher than 3% (don't know if it's 5 or 10).

but that's just base chance. chance to block is raised by dex (wardens will typically have 180-200 dex when self-buffed) and modified by opponent's weaponskill or by npc level (which is used to calculate a weaponskill for the npc).


And there is a huge difference between pc and npc arrows due to the difference in weaponskill calculated.



(And no, arrow miss-rates have nothing to do with the level of the arrow)

 

[Ensceptifica]

Originally posted by Pin
And you'll see that it was impossible for the archer to actually kill the warden, even if the warden does nothing but stand there and heal when he can (twice the archer ran out of end and was no longer able to shoot) - and I'm pretty certain the archer would lose in melee to the warden

I think I can outmelee a hunter when both are using nothing but their own buffs. Don't have much experience with it, seeing most 1-1 fights I have are vs heavily buffbotted stealthers ending with me dead and the stealther at 80% after I used IP But let's not go into the buffbot issue ( ; Tbh I think a warden stands a fair chance vs an archer in melee, if the warden has IP and the RR isn't too much in the archer's favor.

 

[Mirhen Morkir]

Originally posted by Pin
I would also point out that (due to the order of resolution of combat events) for this sample of 40 attacks, there is..

15% block rate (unspecced shield, etc)
14.7% miss rate (i.e. not much different from normal melee)
62.1% 'BT rate'



And you'll see that it was impossible for the archer to actually kill the warden, even if the warden does nothing but stand there and heal when he can (twice the archer ran out of end and was no longer able to shoot) - and I'm pretty certain the archer would lose in melee to the warden

I'm still unsure of the patch level that those logs where from, what I do know is that PA is not needed, and with rapid fire the archer can by pass bubble. So why add a passive always on ability to the archer class as well ?

 

[Mirhen Morkir]

Originally posted by Pin
base block chance is higher than 3% (don't know if it's 5 or 10).

but that's just base chance. chance to block is raised by dex (wardens will typically have 180-200 dex when self-buffed) and modified by opponent's weaponskill or by npc level (which is used to calculate a weaponskill for the npc).


And there is a huge difference between pc and npc arrows due to the difference in weaponskill calculated.



(And no, arrow miss-rates have nothing to do with the level of the arrow)

It has been proven that Dex only effects block rate if you can spec shield.

This is suposedly one of the fixes added in 1.62.

 

[Ensceptifica]

Originally posted by Pin
base block chance is higher than 3% (don't know if it's 5 or 10).

I heard 10% base, but I also heard a non-speccable ability like warden shield equals 1/2 specrate of the person's level, so a lvl 50 warden would have the equivalent of 25 shield, which means about 12.5% base chance to block. But in standard RvR I'll be happy if I block once in an entire evening. I also noticed a difference between fg fights and duels.. I heard there was a bug messing up block/parry rates when fighting in groups, dunno how much truth there is in that.

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by Ensceptifica
I heard there was a bug messing up block/parry rates when fighting in groups, dunno how much truth there is in that.

yes, there is a bug still messing up block/parry rates in groups. this won't come into play if the archer is solo attacking you solo, etc. (supposedly fixed in 1.62... again)

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by Mirhen Morkir
I'm still unsure of the patch level that those logs where from, what I do know is that PA is not needed, and with rapid fire the archer can by pass bubble. So why add a passive always on ability to the archer class as well ?

As the archer was firing at a Warden, Penetrate Arrow won't come into play at all - the archer will not penetrate the BT of the Warden (but can penetrate a stacked BT from another Warden, etc).


Now, imagine if the log was on a shield tank who was grouped with a Warden. Let's give the tank a 70% block rate 1v1 against the archer (assuming block/parry bugs are fixed, etc)... How many hits would the archer get from those 40 arrows?


Well, 28 would be blocked by shield... 2 would be flat misses... and the remaining 10 would all hit BT (or with a bit of luck the archer would land 1 of them)....

That's getting lucky and hitting someone once on 3 full endurance bars over the space of 3.5 minutes.


See the problem?


Replace the shield tank with a Rogue/Friar with high evade and you get the same effect.


Now with Penetrate Arrow, the archer will be able to pass through that BT and hit the tank for reduced damage (or full damage if specced to 50 bow).

 

[Mirhen Morkir]

The problem with PA, is not the effect it will have on Wardens or Tanks/hybrid tanks. It's the effect it will have on those classes that have no real DEFENSE other than PBT in RvR.

Think of the effect it will have on a druid or bard grouped with a warden on the above case.

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by Mirhen Morkir

Think of the effect it will have on a druid or bard grouped with a warden on the above case.

a druid sends his pet to the archer, archer is out of commission the entire fight.

a bard can move away, move closer and mezz, use shouts, etc. and next patch has evade.


But seriously, the changes are not going to destroy either class. All they do is improve the archer in group situations.

It makes no change whatsoever to snipers, it just means that an archer an actually do SOMETHING rather than stand there and go ooe without really doing anything.

 

[Ensceptifica]

Originally posted by Pin
Now with Penetrate Arrow, the archer will be able to pass through that BT and hit the tank for reduced damage (or full damage if specced to 50 bow).

Which I think is fair for the archer, but which also means warden is less use in RvR, which, along with the fact that a warden's active role in RvR is already very limited, was why a lot of wardens are unhappy and why I suggested improving wardens in other possible aspects Nice how we keep coming to the same conclusion in this discussion ( ;

Btw.. if an archer is grouped, another member in his group can (and should) put the bubble out of commission in some way, thus making it easier for an archer to hit people in the warden's group. Ofcourse if the archer is solo this will be hard, but imho it SHOULD be hard for a solo archer to kill someone who's in a fg with a warden. Fair enough to give a means to penetrate the bubble, but if the damage is not reduced then, it basically means nobody's safe from archers with 50spec bows except wardens, even if it's 5fg vs 1 archer. That would be unfair imho.

 

[old.Thanatlos]

Originally posted by Pin
As the archer was firing at a Warden, Penetrate Arrow won't come into play at all - the archer will not penetrate the BT of the Warden (but can penetrate a stacked BT from another Warden, etc).


Now, imagine if the log was on a shield tank who was grouped with a Warden. Let's give the tank a 70% block rate 1v1 against the archer (assuming block/parry bugs are fixed, etc)... How many hits would the archer get from those 40 arrows?


Well, 28 would be blocked by shield... 2 would be flat misses... and the remaining 10 would all hit BT (or with a bit of luck the archer would land 1 of them)....

That's getting lucky and hitting someone once on 3 full endurance bars over the space of 3.5 minutes.


See the problem?


Replace the shield tank with a Rogue/Friar with high evade and you get the same effect.


Now with Penetrate Arrow, the archer will be able to pass through that BT and hit the tank for reduced damage (or full damage if specced to 50 bow).

Why the hell would an archer fire at a shield tank?? or a warden for the same matter?

Do you think I as a warden will try and hit a shield tank with my 900ish weaponskill next patch when block/parry is fixed? hell no, I won't hit him. I'll hit mages and healers like usual!

I don't expect to do spearo damage, but I do expect to do equal damage to a 1h hero if i spec full weapon, which is hardly the case right now. I do expect to have some functionality to protect my casters/support from the enemy, which used to be pbt which now is just another ablative.

Wardens spec the way they do because they have no choice, theurgs can go ice and air and still have pretty decent damage. I agree earth is a very crappy line but they CAN spec other lines. I can tell you no warden is 50 in their weapontype. Highest i think are 39 and 44, if they were to spec to 50 they'd get 10 more damage (this isn't an exageration). They just need a little extra to have this spec option attractive to them. I don't say give them friar damage, i just say having more than 100 damage on mages would be nice if you speced full weapon :|

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by Ensceptifica
Which I think is fair for the archer, but which also means warden is less use in RvR, which, along with the fact that a warden's active role in RvR is already very limited, was why a lot of wardens are unhappy and why I suggested improving wardens in other possible aspects Nice how we keep coming to the same conclusion in this discussion ( ;

a 'warden's active role in RvR' is unaffected by the change. insta-casting PBT when you reach an enemy is hardly an active role, and actually having to heal a bit of arrow damage here and there could be seen as making you more active


But anyway, a Warden is certainly not the worst-off PBT class out there. An Earth Theurgist is far worse off - but again, the impact from this change on the class is hardly significant.

 

[Ensceptifica]

Originally posted by Pin
a 'warden's active role in RvR' is unaffected by the change. insta-casting PBT when you reach an enemy is hardly an active role, and actually having to heal a bit of arrow damage here and there could be seen as making you more active

Hehe ( ; Sure the active role isn't really affected, it remains small. The passive role is just reduced as well now. We had gimpy heals, gimpy melee, nm that we can use short bows , but offered nice pbt+resists, now we'll offer gimpy heals, gimpy melee, gimpy pbt, and nice resists. And we'll still have nice pbt for ourselves. Dunno about Earth Theurgists, but a warden who wants to add something to a group (which is what a warden's for), goes nurture. Nurture now basically gets a nerf. A small one, but for a class that wasn't uber to begin with, it's still a nasty one.

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by old.Thanatlos
Why the hell would an archer fire at a shield tank?? or a warden for the same matter?

Do you think I as a warden will try and hit a shield tank with my 900ish weaponskill next patch when block/parry is fixed? hell no, I won't hit him. I'll hit mages and healers like usual!

well, a warden is a healer so the archer should be shooting at him - and he should certainly be taken out early (assuming he's not mezzed) because as the log showed he provides a massive damage-sink.

And an archer with his bow has ~1700 weaponskill now and well over 2k weaponskill next patch.


And as for shooting the mages/healers, well the log showed the amazing 27.5% hitrate when 6sec BT was up. This would be 1% with stacked BT.

Originally posted by old.Thanatlos
I don't expect to do spearo damage, but I do expect to do equal damage to a 1h hero if i spec full weapon, which is hardly the case right now.

FFS! YOU ARE NOT A TANK!

A Warden is a hybrid. You have hybrid weaponskill. Spec full weapon and you will do the same damage as a 1h hybrid who is specced full weapon. A Hero is a full tank, and thus has over 50% more weaponskill than you.

If you were to hit as hard as a 1h Hero, then I think Heroes might be complaining about not having baseline heals or buffs when specced full weapon.

Originally posted by old.Thanatlos
I do expect to have some functionality to protect my casters/support from the enemy, which used to be pbt which now is just another ablative.

No, all you lose it full pbt effectiveness against archers. It still protects yourself fully, it still protects your group fully against all other physical damage.

Originally posted by old.Thanatlos
I can tell you no warden is 50 in their weapontype. Highest i think are 39 and 44, if they were to spec to 50 they'd get 10 more damage (this isn't an exageration). i just say having more than 100 damage on mages would be nice if you speced full weapon :|

Again, you're a hybrid. You're on a low-damage melee table. You are never going hit hard in melee. Anyway, you hit harder than a Shaman

 

[<Harle>]

that explains why Friars hit like little girls - cause they are hybrids, too

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by Ensceptifica
Dunno about Earth Theurgists, but a warden who wants to add something to a group (which is what a warden's for), goes nurture. Nurture now basically gets a nerf. A small one, but for a class that wasn't uber to begin with, it's still a nasty one.

Well, an Earth Theurgist wants to add something to a group also (I have one, he's my first character, etc, still specced 45 Earth)... And well, the only thing he adds is PBT, everything else can be done better by someone else - there's nothing else of any use in the line (plus the fact that PBT has a 4second cast time, meaning no running ghetto speed for the group, then insta-casting bubble when you hit combat).


Anyway, I'd rather play a Warden in RvR than my Theurg (PvE is different, at least I can sit comfortably with bubble on and shout orders in a chatgroup on a Sidi raid )

 

[Arnor]

Originally posted by Ensceptifica
Hehe ( ; Sure the active role isn't really affected, it remains small. The passive role is just reduced as well now. We had gimpy heals, gimpy melee, nm that we can use short bows , but offered nice pbt+resists, now we'll offer gimpy heals, gimpy melee, gimpy pbt, and nice resists. And we'll still have nice pbt for ourselves. Dunno about Earth Theurgists, but a warden who wants to add something to a group (which is what a warden's for), goes nurture. Nurture now basically gets a nerf. A small one, but for a class that wasn't uber to begin with, it's still a nasty one.

wardens>supp rm&earth theurg by a kazillion miles. why arent they whining like hell? all I see is wardens whining about getting nerfed...

 

[Novamir]

ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh no WAY ! supp runies rock. i've played a supp runie on camlann and we had several in guild. 3sec cast aoe snare dd is a form of CC in itself and is a very very powerful spell (nice aoe dmg but on only 3sec cast). snare DD is nice. 6sec pbt is ok. max nearsight rules.

if you want to try something funny, take a couple of supp runies when full buffed dex+int and set them on a bunch of enemies.. 1.5sec cast time per aoe and they cant escape coz they're snared :>

earth theurgs, however, are awful :/

 

[Ensceptifica]

You do have some good points Pin, but

Originally posted by Pin
If you were to hit as hard as a 1h Hero, then I think Heroes might be complaining about not having baseline heals or buffs when specced full weapon.

I don't expect to hit as hard, but I shouldn't hit less than half as hard when specialising in weapons. We can't block or intercept, we don't have as many hits, we don't get cheap IP, we don't get determination. We get base heals and nice resists and a bubble which protects from slow weapon users and maybe more if we're teamed with other wardens. I don't know how well other hybrids perform, but I know wardens could use a dmg output boost.

Btw I know friars beat the crap out of any tank. I don't know how well such a friar supports his group with his other specs.

 

[Ensceptifica]

Originally posted by Arnor2
wardens>supp rm&earth theurg by a kazillion miles. why arent they whining like hell? all I see is wardens whining about getting nerfed...

Maybe because the classes aren't really comparable and have totally different 2nd/3rd speclines. For a warden, the other speclines are ok to have given the fact that nurture is strong.

Ofcourse we'll have to wait until after the patch to see if the pbt has gotten a nerf as big as some now dread.