Impressed £67.5 billion... nope... 117.4 billion, and rising.

Raven

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Thats a bit of a bionic duckweed statement ;) Bionic duckweed - EverybodyWiki Bios & Wiki
Yes, very good :)

However, we aren't pulling anything out, we haven't put in yet. The roll out of electrical points for home charging etc hasn't started yet, will take years to install, and will cost an absolute fortune, by which time it will be redundant anyway.
The vast majority of people do not have off street parking where they could hook up to a home charging point. Personally, my car is about 30+ metres from my house (the end of my garden) on the other side of the road, the road is so narrow that you can only park one side. I am sure we could dig up some of the front garden to put a drive in but it is a 400 year old cottage garden with some extremly rare plants, let alone the stone wall at the end of the garden that is protected.

It's also a preservation area, much like a lot of villages. The road is just too narrow to have cables and enough charging points all over the place and would look utterly shit anyway.

The infrastructure for hydrogen distribution is already there in the form of petrol stations that can be adapted.

We need to stick to and improve hybrids until such time that we can switch to hydrogen.

It may be different in mainland Europe due to many towns and cities being flattened and properly planned/rebuilt during and after WW2, a huge amount of places in the UK are untouched by large scale rebuilding and just aren't suitable.

Edit, there is also the possibilty that in 10, 20 years we might not even own our own cars, there may well be fleets and fleets of self driving cars that you "call" when you need to go somewhere, that then return to charging points when necessary.
 
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Scouse

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Big, long cable @Raven. Draped over your wall.

Until hydrogen comes along that'll be tge solution.

We'll punish the kids that fuck with them, of course. But that'll be it.
 

Job

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The claim by the national grid that thry can supply the power for chargers is just utterly ludicrous.

Just look at the power reqd for Teslas superchargers and megachargers.
A truck charge requires 1 fucking megawat!! or an entire 1st gen turbine running at max efficiency for one truck.

A home charger runs from a ordinary plug at 7 m per hour.

32a charger allows 22 miles per hour, and that one car.
How many houses have multiple cars, the full speed home charge requires 120kw !!!!

 

Ormorof

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Yes, very good :)

However, we aren't pulling anything out, we haven't put in yet. The roll out of electrical points for home charging etc hasn't started yet, will take years to install, and will cost an absolute fortune, by which time it will be redundant anyway.
The vast majority of people do not have off street parking where they could hook up to a home charging point. Personally, my car is about 30+ metres from my house (the end of my garden) on the other side of the road, the road is so narrow that you can only park one side. I am sure we could dig up some of the front garden to put a drive in but it is a 400 year old cottage garden with some extremly rare plants, let alone the stone wall at the end of the garden that is protected.

It's also a preservation area, much like a lot of villages. The road is just too narrow to have cables and enough charging points all over the place and would look utterly shit anyway.

The infrastructure for hydrogen distribution is already there in the form of petrol stations that can be adapted.

We need to stick to and improve hybrids until such time that we can switch to hydrogen.

It may be different in mainland Europe due to many towns and cities being flattened and properly planned/rebuilt during and after WW2, a huge amount of places in the UK are untouched by large scale rebuilding and just aren't suitable.

Edit, there is also the possibilty that in 10, 20 years we might not even own our own cars, there may well be fleets and fleets of self driving cars that you "call" when you need to go somewhere, that then return to charging points when necessary.
That's the exact argument the bionic duckweed guy used "by the time it will be installed it will be redundant" the prediction being that electric trains would be replaced by hydrogen cells powered by duckweed by 2020, and here we are with infrastructure investment not happening because of a possible future that may or may not happen

Same argument i have been hearing about hydrogen cars for a decade and not a single major car company has released a hydrogen powered car.
 

Scouse

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The claim by the national grid that thry can supply the power for chargers is just utterly ludicrous.
You've lost this one m8. Give it up.

Instead of pathetically attempting to rubbish claims by the people who actually run the national grid, why not answer the two very clear questions on stakeholder capitalism and your 'new world order'...


I know you love to avoid actually discussing stuff, but it would be a step in the right direction to, you know, having people stop dismissing you out of hand as being nothing more than a shit-talker...
 

Bodhi

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That's the exact argument the bionic duckweed guy used "by the time it will be installed it will be redundant" the prediction being that electric trains would be replaced by hydrogen cells powered by duckweed by 2020, and here we are with infrastructure investment not happening because of a possible future that may or may not happen

Same argument i have been hearing about hydrogen cars for a decade and not a single major car company has released a hydrogen powered car.
I'd say Toyota were pretty major.

 

Raven

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9.6 according to the brochure, which is pretty shit these days but its a new tech. My stage 2 VXR does it in just shy of 7 if I get the start right. It's also a Toyota so I imagine its about as exciting as filling in a tax return but they were the pioneers of mass produced hybrids/electric vehicles so I see no reason why it won't be developed/copied. There are some mental electric cars about, after a relatively short period of time of them being a thing.

 
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georgie

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I don't know if any of you caught this on the Top Gear Youtube channel but it's quite interesting.

 

Wij

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My wife's 4x4 does less than 7 seconds easy. Needs sorting tbh.
 

Raven

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I looked up the Taycan mentioned in the video.

2.8 seconds. lol
 

Ormorof

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I'd say Toyota were pretty major.

I stand corrected that is impressive, lets hope the others go with this also. Surprising they haven't made a bigger deal of it
 

Raven

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It's also an electric motor so it's not actually that far away from normal hybrid vehicles.
 

Jupitus

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If F1 end up going down the hydrogen route, as is very possible, then we can probably expect some epic improvements...
 

Scouse

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If F1 end up going down the hydrogen route, as is very possible, then we can probably expect some epic improvements...
And explosions when they rupture the fuel tanks :)

Electic cars will take over until hydrogen becomes viable for the rest of the time. If we bother.
 

Job

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You've lost this one m8. Give it up.

Instead of pathetically attempting to rubbish claims by the people who actually run the national grid, why not answer the two very clear questions on stakeholder capitalism and your 'new world order'...


I know you love to avoid actually discussing stuff, but it would be a step in the right direction to, you know, having people stop dismissing you out of hand as being nothing more than a shit-talker...
They are being very evasive about home charging, they say you can smart charge in low usage times.
Which is boloks because everyone will be doing it. Eon even suggest we make our own electricity, which is sort of doable, but not very.
'We dont need to upgrade to supply power for EVs.
Eons website
When everyone has an electric car, where will all that electricity come from?
It will come from you. People are already moving away from the grid and generating their own energy in their homes and businesses. From solar to wind energy, self-generation systems will put the power in your hands. You can use it to heat your home and hot water, and of course, to charge your electric car.

If they are referring to 13amp charging, thats unworkable..7 miles an hour...
32a or 8kw charging is enough but thats most of the night entire towns pulling 8KW each house constant on top of normal usage, put your shower on and it 70 amps , before we even talk about electric water heating.

They originally said no upgrades to the grid would be required, what they really mean is youll have to put up with serious inconvenience, including pay more to charge now or at a higher rate.
You can charge your car or run the washing machine.
 

Scouse

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Oh do shut up and answer the questions you've been explicitly asked @Job.
 

Wij

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7 miles an hour would do me to be honest.

Even when I was travelling to work I did 20 miles a day. Maybe 100 if I'm going out for the day on a weekend.

Now, of course, I do about 2 miles a week.
 

Scouse

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7 miles an hour would do me to be honest.
And the slowest household chargers do more than double that. He's just shit talking when it's clear that there's plenty of power, the grid can supply it and it's just not a big deal.

He'd rather be a shit-talker than answer the questions asked of him.
 

Gwadien

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Governments need to do more to make the change happen, car companies are still investing money in developing fossil fuel cars. They have 10 years to make sufficient changes to make electric or hydrogen cars attractive, I really don't see the issue with it.
 

Jupitus

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And explosions when they rupture the fuel tanks :)
This part I disagree with tbh - I have seen plenty of serious F1 crashes in the last, say, 15 years and yet zero fuel fires. They'd do it safely or not at all.
 

Bodhi

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9.6 according to the brochure, which is pretty shit these days but its a new tech. It's also a Toyota so I imagine its about as exciting as filling in a tax return but they were the pioneers of mass produced hybrids/electric vehicles so I see no reason why it won't be developed/copied.

AKA eventually.
Governments need to do more to make the change happen, car companies are still investing money in developing fossil fuel cars. They have 10 years to make sufficient changes to make electric or hydrogen cars attractive, I really don't see the issue with it.
Main issue is around resources for the batteries. Considering we are throwing everything behind these bloody things, from automotive to grid balancing to our usual need of phones / laptops etc, there is only a finite amount of lithium / cobalt etc we can dig up and process into batteries - and the more we need, the more expensive it gets.

Personally I don't see EV's really taking off until we've replaced that 90's laptop technology we're using - the Lithium Ion battery. Too hard to make in the quantity we need, too many chemicals in them where the mining process makes drilling for oil look like a big fluffy bunny factory, too long to charge, too difficult to recycle afterwards. Solid State batteries may be a plan but haven't seen how development of those is going.

Fossil Fuels will be around for quite some time yet, considering they're pretty much responsible for all of modern civilisation. They are getting ever cleaner and will improve more as we go through the 2020s - in fact I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if the 2030 ban got quietly moved into the future when the practicalities of building and charging them become more apparent. Not just load on the grid - which is an issue considering we are already marginal on capacity at times, for instance 2 weeks ago - Subscribe to read | Financial Times , but the charging infrastructure to go with it.

Guess we better get building some nukes. No rush, I probably have another 18 years of burning dino juice to be cracking on with. Might have an M2 next, or even that new Yaris GR.
 

Scouse

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Fossil Fuels will be around for quite some time yet, considering they're pretty much responsible for all of modern civilisation. They are getting ever cleaner
Pffft.

Not materially or in the orders of magnitude we require.

Bull. Shit.
 

Bodhi

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Pffft.

Not materially or in the orders of magnitude we require.

Bull. Shit.
Yes they are - a quick look at the progression of the Euro Emissions standards for cars will show you that.
 

Scouse

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Yes they are - a quick look at the progression of the Euro Emissions standards for cars will show you that.
It's not orders of magnitude - I was specific in stating that.

There's an irreducible minimum issue with the burning of hydrocarbons. That's just physics - it's unfixable within an energy envelope (especially with cars, from an engineering standpoint).

So we have to phase it out - and are doing.
 

Scouse

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Job

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From the information I supplied from Teslas website, the fact that a fast charge on a tesla truck requires a Mw of power should pretty well put it to bed .
There are 450 thousand trucks in the UK, as in full size lorries.

450 thousand megawatts just to charge trucks.

Then theres commercial vehicles and were not even up to cars.

Obviously we could stagger the charging, though that doesnt seem an easy process.
Just the amount of batteries in only UKs trucks would be staggering and they have a limited lifetime.
 

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