Friendly Fire

soze · Feb 6, 2007

This transcript dose not read like its the pilots fault they tell base they have orange pannels. Base says no freindlys destroy them. And unlike what the paper says this dose not read like the A-10 carry on after the smoke signal.

Spoiler long read

Transcript starts:

1336.30 MANILA HOTEL: POPOV from MANILA HOTEL. Can you confirm you engaged that tube and those vehicles?

1336.36 POPOV35: Affirm Sir. Looks like I've got multiple vehicles in reverts at about 800 metres to the north of your arty (artillery) rounds. Can you switch fire, and shift fire, and get some arty rounds on those?

1336.47 MANILA HOTEL: Roger, I understand that those are the impacts you observed earlier on my timing?

1336.51 POPOV35: Affirmative.

1336.52 MANILA HOTEL: Roger, standby. Let me make sure they're not on another mission.

1336.57 POPOV36: Hey, I got a four ship. Looks like we got orange panels on them though. Do we have any friendlies up in this area?

1337.03 MANILA HOTEL: I understand that was north 800 metres.

1337.12 MANILA HOTEL: POPOV, understand that was north 800 metres?

1337.16 POPOV35: Confirm, north 800 metres. Confirm there are no friendlies this far north on the ground.

1337.21 MANILA HOTEL: That is an affirm. You are well clear of friendlies.

1337.25 POPOV35: Copy. I see multiple riveted vehicles. Some look like flatbed trucks and others are green vehicles. Can't quite make out the type. Look like may be ZIL157s [Russian made trucks used by Iraqi army].

1337.36 MANILA HOTEL: Roger. That matches our intel up there. And understand you also have the other fixed wing up this push? For terminal control, if you can.

1337.44 POPOV35: I'd love to. I didn't talk to him yet.

1337.46 MANILA HOTEL: Roger, I believe CASPER is up this push too. Two Super Tomcats.

1337.54 POPOV35: Hey dude.

1337.56 POPOV36: I got a four ship of vehicles that are evenly spaced along a road going north.

1338.04 POPOV36: Look down at your right, 2 o'clock, at 10 o'clock low, there is a, left 10 o'clock low, look down there north along that canal, right there. Coming up just south of the village.

1338.21 POPOV35: Evenly spaced? Where we strafed?

1338.23 POPOV36: No. No. Further east, further west, right now. And there's four or five of them right now heading up there.

1338.29 POPOV35: No, I don't have you visual.

1338.30 POPOV36: I'm back at your 6 - no factor.

1338.31 POPOV35: OK, now where's this canal?

1338.35 POPOV35: Don't hit those F18s that are out there.

1338.38 POPOV36: OK. Right underneath you. Right now, there's a canal that runs north/south. There's a small village, and there are vehicles that are spaced evenly there.

1338.49 POPOV36: They look like they have orange panels on though.

1338.51 POPOV35: He told me, he told me there's nobody north of here.

1338.52 POPOV36: I know. There, right on the river.

1338.53 POPOV35: I see vehicles though, might be our original dudes.

1339.09 POPOV36: They've got something orange on top of them.

1339.10 POPOV35: POPOV for MANILA 3, is MANILA 34 in this area?

1339.14 MANILA HOTEL: Say again?

1339.15 POPOV35: MANILA HOTEL, is MANILA 34 in this area?

1339.19 MANILA HOTEL: Negative. Understand they are well clear of that now.

1339.23 POPOV35: OK, copy. Like I said, multiple riveted vehicles. They look like flatbed trucks. Are those your targets?

1339.30 MANILA HOTEL: That's affirm.

1339.31 POPOV35: OK.

1339.34 POPOV36: Let me ask you one question.

1339.35 POPOV35: What's that?

1339.45 POPO36: (to MANILA HOTEL) Hey, tell me what type of rocket launchers you got up here.

1339.50 POPOV36: I think they're rocket launchers.

1339.52 MANILA HOTEL: . . . (garbled) You were stepped on, say again.

1339.54 POPOV35: MANILA HOTEL, fire your arty up that 800 metres north, and see how we do.

1340.01 MANILA HOTEL: Roger, standby for shot. They are getting adjustments to the guns now.

1340.34 POPOV35: Copy.

1340.09 POPOV36: Roll up your right wing and look right underneath you.

1340.12 POPOV35: (angry) I know what you're talking about.

1340.13 POPOV36: OK, well they got orange rockets on them.

1340.17 POPOV35: Orange rockets?

1340.17 POPOV36: Yeah, I think so.

1340.18 POPOV35: Let me look.

1340.26 POPOV35: We need to think about getting home.

1340.29 POPOV36: 3.6 is what it says (a fuel measurement).

1340.31 POPOV35: Yeah, I know. I'm talking time wise.

1340.35 POPOV36: I think killing these damn rocket launchers, it would be great. (The tape then becomes garbled)

1340.52 MANILA HOTEL: Yeah, POPOV36, MANILA HOTEL. I've got other aircraft up this push. Not sure they're coming to me. Someone else might be working this freak.

1341.00 POPOV35: Yeah, MANILA34 is working them, break, break.

1340.12 POPOV36: Yeah, I see that, you see I'm going to roll down.

1340.15 MANILA 34: Break, be advised MANILA34 is not working the F18s unless they are trying to check in with me, over.

1341.21 POPOV35: Copy.

1341.24 POPOV36: OK, do you see the orange things on top of them?

1341.32 MANILA HOTEL: POPOV 36 from MANILA HOTEL. Are you able to switch to Crimson?

1341.37 POPOV36: POPOV 36 is rolling in.

1341.40 MANILA HOTEL: Tell you what.

1341.41 POPOV35: I'm coming off west. You roll in. It looks like they are exactly what we're talking about.

1341.49 POPOV36: We got visual.

1341.50 POPOV36: OK. I want to get that first one before he gets into town then.

1341.53 POPOV35: Get him - get him.

1341.55 POPOV36: All right, we got rocket launchers, it looks like. Number 2 is rolling in from the south to the north, and 2's in.

1342.04 POPOV35: Get it.

According to The Sun, POPOV36, then puts his A-10 into a dive to strafe the British column, destroying two Scimitar armoured vehicles and killing L/Cpl Hull.

1342.09 - GUNFIRE -

1342.18 POPOV35: I'm off your west.

1342.22 POPOV35: Good hits.

1342.29 POPOV36: Got a visual.

1342.30 POPOV35: I got a visual. You're at your high 10.

1342.31 POPOV36: Gotcha.

1342.30 POPOV36: That's what you think they are, right?

1342.39 POPOV35: It looks like it to me, and I got my goggles on them now.

1342.59 POPOV35: OK, I'm looking at getting down low at this.

1343.13 MANILA HOTEL: POPOV 36 from MANILA HOTEL, guns . . .

1343.17 MANILA HOTEL: To engage those targets in the revetts [slopes].

1343.24 POPOV36: It looks like he is hauling ass. Ha ha. Is that what you think they are?

1343.34 POPOV36: 1-2

1343.35 POPOV35: It doesn't look friendly.

1343.38 POPOV36: OK, I'm in again from the south.

1343.40 POPOV35: Ok.

1343.47 - GUNFIRE -

1343.54 LIGHTNING 34: POPOV 34, LIGHTNING 34.

1344.09 POPOV35: POPOV 35, LIGHTNING 34 GO.

1344.12 LIGHTNING 34: Roger, POPOV. Be advised that in the 3122 and 3222 group box you have friendly armour in the area. Yellow, small armoured tanks. Just be advised.

1344.16 POPOV35: Ahh shit.

1344.19 P0POV35: Got a - got a smoke.

1344.21 LIGHTNING 34: Hey, POPOV34, abort your mission. You got a, looks we might have a blue on blue situation.

1344.25 POPOV35: Fuck. God bless it.

1344.29 POPOV35: POPOV 34.

1344.35 POPOV35: Fuck, fuck, fuck.

1344.36 MANILA 34: POPOV34, this is MANILA 34. Did you copy my last, over?

1344.39 POPOV35: I did.

1344.47 POPOV35: Confirm those are friendlies on that side of the canal.

1344.51 POPOV35: Shit.

1344.58 MANILA 34: Standby POPOV.

1345.04 POPOV36: God dammit.

1344.14 MANILA HOTEL: Hey POPOV 36, from MANILA HOTEL.

1344.25 MANILA 34: OK POPOV. Just west of the 3-4 easting. On the berm up there, the 3422 area is where we have our friendlies, over.

1344.39 POPOV35: All right, POPOV 35 has smoke. Let me know how those friendlies are right now, please.

1344.45 MANILA 34: Roger, standby.

1344.49 POPOV35: Gotta go home dude.

1344.50 POPOV36: Yeah, I know. We're fucked.

1345.54 POPOV35: Shit.

1346.01 POPOV36: As you cross the circle, you are 3 o'clock low.

1346.03 POPOV35: Roger.

1346.12 POPOV35: POPOV 35 is bingo. Let us know what's happening.

13446.15 MANILA HOTEL: Roger. We are getting that information for you right now. Standby.

1346.20 POPOV36: Fuck.

1346.47 MANILA 34: POPOV, this is MANILA 34 over.

1346.51 POPOV35: Go.

1346.55 MANILA 34: POPOV 4, MANILA 34 over.

1347.01 POPOV35: Go.

1347.02 MANILA 34: We are getting an initial brief that there was one killed and one wounded, over.

1347.09 POPOV35: Copy. RTB (return to base).

1347.18 POPOV35: I'm going to be sick.

1347.24 POPOV36: Ah fuck.

1347.48 POPOV35: Did you hear?

1347.51 POPOV36: Yeah, this sucks.

1347.52 POPOV35: We're in jail, dude.

1347.59 POPOV36: Aaaahhhh.

1348.12 SKY CHIEF: MANILA this is SKY CHIEF over.

1348.18 MANILA34: This is MANILA 34, send SKY CHIEF.

1348.22 COSTA58: SKY CHIEF, SKY CHIEF. COSTA 58.

1348.25 MANILA HOTEL: SKY CHIEF, this is MANILA HOTEL.

1348.30 COSTA58: SKY CHIEF, SKY CHIEF. COSTA 58.

1348.41 SKY CHIEF: Relaying for TWINACT, the A-10s are running against friendlies.

1348.47 COSTA58: POPOV 35, this is COSTA58. Relaying message for TWINACT. Abort, abort.

1348.54 SKY CHIEF: MANILA how copy A-10s are running against friendlies. Abort. Over.

1349.07 COSTA58: From TWINACT, abort, abort.

1349. 11 POPOV35: POPOV 35 aborting.

1349.14 COSTA58: We will relay that back to TWINACT.

1349.18 POPOV36: Fuck. God fucking shit.

1350.21 POPOV36: Dammit. Fucking damn it. 1351.17 P0POV36: God dammit. Fuck me dead (weeping).

1351.25 POPOV35: You with me?

1351.27 POPOV36: Yeah.

1351.30 POPOV35: They did say there were no friendlies.

1351.33 POPOV36: Yeah, I know that thing with the orange panels is going to screw us. They look like orange rockets on top.

1351.48 POPOV35: Your tape still on?

1351.49 POPOV36: Yeah.

1351.54 POPOV35: Mine is end of tape.

Calaen · Feb 6, 2007

I sympathise with the pilots, they queried the ID of the targets enough then done their job.

Mey · Feb 6, 2007

Aye that is not the fault of the pilots poor intel..

old.Tohtori · Feb 6, 2007

More then enough times the pilots pointed out the orange tags, which was basicly ignored by the HQ because the papers said there weren't any friendlies out there.

Can't even start to imagine what they feel like when they hear they've just dropped their own, unless you count the times i've accidently taken out friendly tanks with my fighter jet in Battlefield 2

Calaen · Feb 6, 2007

There was a military specialist on the TV today saying that he could not see some signal that friendly vehicles are meant to give off on the HUD of the plane.

Ezteq · Feb 6, 2007

anyone else find it slightly odd that we alwasy hear about american FF on us but yet never hear of UK FF against anyone? im sure it must happen tbh.

i feel really sorry for the americans tbh the UK ppl should have said they were there man when the guy said he feels sick i really feel for him

horrible business

soze · Feb 6, 2007

Ezteq said:
anyone else find it slightly odd that we alwasy hear about american FF on us but yet never hear of UK FF against anyone? im sure it must happen tbh.

i feel really sorry for the americans tbh the UK ppl should have said they were there man when the guy said he feels sick i really feel for him horrible business

I do not think we are nearly as bad as them but then we spend money on training rather than just new hi tech gadgets. We do things like buy armor for our troops they buy ipods, says it all i think

Ezteq · Feb 6, 2007

well aparantly i hear about 10% of casualties are FF and they have those thingies in planes for identifying friend or foe in other planes so why cant they have a coded radio transmission in tanks, its a bit crap really you just got a bit of paint to stand between you and death

old.Tohtori · Feb 6, 2007

Well, i don't think anyone can say what they do and don't do to avoid Friendly fire.

You take into consideration enemy spies(radio trans etc), possible counteractions, secure ways to pass info and that's just a few really weird things i thought of.

I bet that avoiding friendly fire is in their top priorities, but in the heat of the battle, with people afraid to use their own sense over the intel(cause their afraid of getting blame or worse) and so much more stressing when it's a life and death of thousands, these things happen.

Calaen · Feb 6, 2007

My concern is the questions the prosecutors are asking is have the pilots been punished, are they still in active duty.

Why should they stop what they were doing? They carried out an order after serious questioning of whether the target was valid. After being given the order the carried out their job. Its not like you hear them snarling at the first sight of vehicle then start firing before asking questions.

Dreamor · Feb 6, 2007

Ezteq said:
well aparantly i hear about 10% of casualties are FF and they have those thingies in planes for identifying friend or foe in other planes so why cant they have a coded radio transmission in tanks, its a bit crap really you just got a bit of paint to stand between you and death

my understanding with that though, is that the 'codes' are only valid for a short space of time. The friendly fire incident a year or 2 ago on an RAF Tornado was because the Yank SAM sites had changed codes and not replicated to the jets in the air...

FF is stupid, the problem is - we rely too much on Intel and Technology and not enough on common sense...

soze · Feb 6, 2007

Dreamor said:
my understanding with that though, is that the 'codes' are only valid for a short space of time. The friendly fire incident a year or 2 ago on an RAF Tornado was because the Yank SAM sites had changed codes and not replicated to the jets in the air...

FF is stupid, the problem is - we rely too much on Intel and Technology and not enough on common sense...

Apparently in that incident the yank over rode the sam sit because it gave a mixed reason so the sam did not launch it self a yank pressed the button because the plane was questioned.

Mey · Feb 6, 2007

LOL since when have these middle eastern countries had ubber planes/tanks tbh..

Lethul · Feb 6, 2007

the swedish newspaper angeled this story to be like 100% pilots fault, if not even their intention. from the magazine it seemed like they knew what they were firing on but didnt really care.

and then in the bottom there was a small link to this conversation and it didn't seem to fit the story they had written at all. the quest for selling more copies is a strange quest indeed

Calaen · Feb 6, 2007

Yeah Lethul thats how it is being reported.

CorNokZ · Feb 7, 2007

I heard the conversation on the news and just hearing that guy saying "I'm gonna be sick" is really terrible

Seems like they did their job and followed the orders from the HQ.. I really feel for these pilots and I hope they won't be prosecuted or convicted for anything

Sad story indeed

For those who haven't seen it yet

Lethul · Feb 7, 2007

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70KuubVOZNg

the aircrafts rox tho!

old.Tohtori · Feb 7, 2007

Well after seeing the tape also, can't say at ALL that it was a pilot mistake.

Bad bad intel...

They double checked, i think triple, that there weren't friendlies.

And to those who wonder what's so bad about some gunfire of a jet, the A-10's vulcan nose cannon tears apart modern day tanks like a swiss knife through butter. It's a 30mm gatling gun...also spelled "ouch".

Lethul said:
the aircrafts rox tho!

Always loved them and saw 2 of them launch side by side at a finnish airshow. Sound like harley's in air

Ctuchik · Feb 7, 2007

Ezteq said:
anyone else find it slightly odd that we alwasy hear about american FF on us but yet never hear of UK FF against anyone? im sure it must happen tbh.

i feel really sorry for the americans tbh the UK ppl should have said they were there man when the guy said he feels sick i really feel for him horrible business

UK friendly fire exists to, but thats, from the little ive read about it, is more from stray bullets and stuff. not something majorly bad like this. USA is so carved on the fact(?) that their paper intel is 100% true they dont listen to anyone thats saying otherwise. if the paper tells them theres no friendlies in the area then there isnt, even if there are for some reason. they have very little trust in the guys thats really out there it seems.

wittor · Feb 7, 2007

Sadly things like that happen in wars even though it shouldn't happen.

I feel sorry for the pilots, they checked it twice or more and you can hear clearly that they say 'it looks like orange' towards the HQ.
No friendly foes around is the reply from HQ ( I think the pilots even asked twice if they were sure and HQ said yes no friendly foes ) , then they are asked to engage which they do. They got the order and followed it.

Oh by the way I think this is were its all about tbh, in the newspaper they said how one of them made a joke after the shooting "It looks like he is hauling ass. Ha ha".

Yes you can hear the joke on the tape but they had no idea that they were hitting UK soldiers.
After they got the news that they shot on UK soldiers and that one died and one is injuried you can clearly hear how terrible that they find it and that they are totally sad and upset because of it, one pilot even 'cried'.

Sad story, its a shame that they blame the pilots even though that you can hear that they are sorry for what happend.

If they wanne blame someone then they should blame the guy who said twice "No friendly foes around".

soze · Feb 7, 2007

The moment the guys in the plane said it looks like orange panels ManilaHotle should have got onto joint command and asked if there is anyone there. Because lets face facts we would not tell everyone if the SAS were going in somewhere. The fact the guy dose not check he just says no friendly's this far north is where the problem lies the command. The sun are just sensationalising it to try and put a Human face as the thing to blame. If you really want to avoid the problem the American command structure needs to change to work better with other nations.

I would give the challenger 2 tank a fighting chance vs a A10 its armour can stand up to a main battle tank shell from close range and it turret dose a full rotation in 9 seconds.

Typical yanks to attack our un armed Scimitars. Also better training might have helped the yanks identify them as English as the closet thing to a Scimitar looks wise is a Yank Bradley so where did Iraq get these from?

Agell · Feb 8, 2007

The main issue was that before the pilots flew out to the area, they were given no training on how to identify British vehicles from the air. The second was that they were told in the initial briefing not to attack anything to the West of the river/river bed. However at the end of the day it seems to be a genuine mistake and you can hear the anguish in the pilots voices when they find out it was a blue-on-blue kill.

Dreamor · Feb 8, 2007

soze said:
Typical yanks to attack our un armed Scimitars. Also better training might have helped the yanks identify them as English as the closet thing to a Scimitar looks wise is a Yank Bradley so where did Iraq get these from?

The fact of the matter is, only the yanks and brits are using armour out there.... how can you get them confused with anything else??

I don't buy or even read a newspaper now, mainly because they all say random stuff just to sell papers.

There are more friendly fire incidents than they would admit to, I was talking to a mate out there the other week who came under fire.... ooo, wait, it was the yanks across the street... happens all the time. :touch:

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