Sceptic dual wielder

Meradesh

Fledgling Freddie
Joined
Feb 21, 2004
Messages
622
I can only see fotm bladeshades everywhere, that's to the new players trying a dual wield class, if you don't know how dual wield works and the haste effect, or you know it but have no ideaabout how much it helps to your damage, read this, hope it will help you to choose your offhand weapon.

OK we'll only work with dmg caps, our %melee dmg %style dmg and main skill at the weapon must be the same at any test.
It will be only an orientative test, you need to know about this:

-Dmg cap, to get it smash a low grey con with a combat style.

-unstyled dmg cap, find a low grey con mob, engage combat, that is. Your weapon dps and speed gives it, toa %melee dmg increases it.

-style dmg cap = dmg cap - unstyled dmg
style dmg works like a damage add spell, it will be greater when your swing is slowand will decrease with fast swings, but, over time will be the same dmg. Each combat style has a "value" and is increased by toa %style dmg and skill. The weapon dps or speed is not important,only quality % con % and the swing speed.

-Haste, celerity, haste items and quickness: makes you swing faster, your style dmg will decrease but over time it will remain the same, it's a huge boost to your unstyled dmg.

- Dual wield haste effect: it takes place when you swing both weapons at the same time,your mainhand speed will be hastened and your offhand will be slowed, if both weapons are 16'5 your unstyled dmg won't change with this "false" haste, but your style damage will.

It works like this, mainhand 4.0/offhand 2.0, your normal swing speed will be 4.0, when Dual wield haste effect takes place your swing speed will be 3.0 (mainhand+offhand/2).
when it happens you will hit at 3.0 but your styled dmg is calculated as if you would hit at 4.0, it's a nice boost to your styled dmg.

Now let's test some mainhand/offhand pairs to get an idea about it.

I did the test with a lvl 50 ranger, 152 Quickness, 50 composite blades skill, no haste or toa items always hitting with "Glowing blade"lvl 10 combat style, the weapons were all 99% qua and 100% con. we need a weapon speed calculator to engage with tests

http://daoc.nisrv.com/modules.php?name=Weapon_Speed_Calc

R-4'2/L-4'1: after quickness our normal speed swing is 3'427s, and 3'386 with dual wield haste effectwe check our normal styled damage cap (3'427) and calculate it to our dual wield hastened swing (dwhs)

3'427 styled damage cap: 112
3'386 styled damage cap: 111

that's an impressive 0'9% boost to our styled dmg

R-4'2/L-3'4

normal swing: 3'427
dwhs: 3'1
3'427 styled damage cap: 112
3'101 styled damage cap: 102

it's going better, 9'8% damage styled boost.

R-4'2/L-2'5

normal swing: 3'427
dwhs: 2'734
3'427 styled damage cap: 112
2'734 styled damage cap: 90

We get a nice 24'4% damage styled boost.

But it's not soo sweet as we dual wielders doesn't hit with both weapons every time,
the real %styled dmg boost is modified by your % to swing both weapons



CD/DW skill ---- %swing ---- R-4'2/L-4'1 ---- R-4'2/L-3'4 ---- R-4'2/L-2'5

----20 ------------ 38'6 -------- 0'35% -------- 3'78% -------- 9'43%

----30 ------------ 45'4 -------- 0'41% -------- 4'45% -------- 11'1%

----40 ------------ 52'2 -------- 0'47% -------- 5'12% -------- 12'76%

----50 ------------ 59 -------- 0'53% -------- 5'78% -------- 14'42%

---- 60 ------------ 65'8 -------- 0'59% -------- 6'45% -------- 16'08%

---- 70 ------------ 72'6 -------- 0'65% -------- 7'13% -------- 17'75%

----LA user -------- 100 -------- 0'9% -------- 9'8% -------- 24'44%

this style boost doesn't adds to toa style dmg, it's calculated after it.

And we are done, sorry about my poor english and hope it helps someone out there to chose an offhand weapon.

PD: Many shrooms died and a bot was severely injuried to test this.
 

AngelHeal

Part of the furniture
Joined
Apr 18, 2004
Messages
3,757
lol
glad im playing 2 casters ^^
i didn't understand shit of this:p
 

Dracus

Fledgling Freddie
Joined
Dec 24, 2003
Messages
2,242
Its very simple and LA users benefit the most from it, altho they have celer most the time so it wont help grp'd chars that much ;) but on SB I'd use fast, mebbe even crafted off hand with recent changes. No doubt.

/Dracus
 

Ivynoxia

One of Freddy's beloved
Joined
Dec 23, 2003
Messages
569
Thanks for the analysis, I understand how the % damage increase is worked out but I've got some questions about the values used if you can answer them that would be great
R-4'2/L-2'5

normal swing: 3'427
dwhs: 2'734
3'427 styled damage cap: 112 [from testing?]
2'734 styled damage cap: 90 [how is that calculated?]
The value of the 3.427 styled damage cap is from testing?

but what about the value of 90 for the 2.734 styled damage cap? How is that calculated? I think that part deserves more explanation since all percentage damage increases follow from that.
 

Ivynoxia

One of Freddy's beloved
Joined
Dec 23, 2003
Messages
569
I think I understand now how you calculated it, did some background reading :) I'm guessing you used the formula for style dmg modifer by Jay Ambrosini aka Wyrd.

(Growth rate * Style line spec ) * Effective swing delay / Unstyled dmg cap

Which, for clarification, you can rearranage as:

Effective swing delay * ((Growth rate * Style line spce) / Unstyled dmg cap)

Looking at the second formula, it's easy to see that if you lower your swing delay by 5%, your style dmg will decrease by 5%, too. After all that's the whole reason why you get smaller hits when you put on red haste. You used this fact to work out the value of 90 from 112, by calculating the % decrease in swing time between 2.734 and 3.427, which was 20.22% [the maths: (1 - 2.734 / 3.427) * 100 ] so style damage is lowered by 20.22% as well.
R-4'2/L-2'5

normal swing: 3'427
dwhs: 2'734
3'427 styled damage cap: 112
2'734 styled damage cap: 90
112 lowered by 20.22% is ~90 [ the maths: (100-20.22 / 100) = 89.35 ] Then you drew your conclusion by knowing that when you dual swing, swing delay is lowered but the style dmg decrease doesn't happen.

The difference in the two style damages is used to work out the % bonus dmg. Nice work :) now I believe the figures are right, fook me a 24.4% increase to style DPS, that's quite a lot!
 

Meradesh

Fledgling Freddie
Joined
Feb 21, 2004
Messages
622
Ivynoxia said:
I think I understand now how you calculated it, did some background reading :) I'm guessing you used the formula for style dmg modifer by Jay Ambrosini aka Wyrd.

(Growth rate * Style line spec ) * Effective swing delay / Unstyled dmg cap

Which, for clarification, you can rearranage as:

Effective swing delay * ((Growth rate * Style line spce) / Unstyled dmg cap)
.....

You can do it this way but what I did was far more simple, as I wrote the "styled damage" on any strike is like a damage add spell, the original speed of the weapon is not important, the only important thing is your swing speed, so if I need to calculate the styled dmg with a 2'734 speed weapon, I just get a 3'1 speed sword (same quality 99, con 100, same toa style dmg 0%, same toa melee dmg 0%, same blade skill) and seek at the weapon speed calculator how much quickness I need to get a 2'734 swing speed (3'1 weapon and 104 quickness to swing at 2'736), then just go to a grey mob to check the 3'1 sword (swinging at 2'736) damage cap with glowing blade combat style and the unstyled damage, styled damage it's the total damage cap - unstyled damage.
I like more doing it this way as it's only about tested facts, the only formula I use here is the weapons speed calculator.

It's a very simple test really and anyone can do it, you just need some swords and many different quickness items to play with the stat.

PD: oh I forgot to write about this, when you hit the weapon speed hard cap, or you get more than 250 quickness,
your melee damage will stop increasing and your styled damage will freeze and won't go down any more, on a weird
way you could calculate your real weapon speed, (yes, as the time to load a bow, mythic don't tell us the complete speed, when it says our weapon is 4'2 it can really be 4'288..) you hit the swing speed hard cap when styled damages
freezes, the only problem woud be to test it with a huge value (growth rate) combat style, prolly PA so the style damage will be more "sensible" to a little quickness modification.
 

Ivynoxia

One of Freddy's beloved
Joined
Dec 23, 2003
Messages
569
I see all the figures are from testing, that's ever better, well at least it shows wyrd's formula seems to be working lol
 

Meradesh

Fledgling Freddie
Joined
Feb 21, 2004
Messages
622
Sneakers|Matriarch said:
Ivy, then the mighty question will be:


Croc or CW as offhand??!?! :)

there is not an universal better offhand, your offhand must fit your, class, template, spec and playstyle.
Rangers deals far more melee dmg than style dmg, so style dmg bonuses is not as important as quickness, haste and toa melee %. Ns style dmg can be huge so a very fast offhand would be really nice but once again it must fit at the ns template high (toa style %), spec very high Cs and high CD, and playstyle, if you strafe too much or can't counter your strafing enemies any style dmg boost doesn't worth really, or if you change at each strike to reaply lifebane, you are loosing the style boost granted by a very fast offhand there.
Each player and char has his own "better" offhand =)
 
Joined
Apr 26, 2006
Messages
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Hmm, I hate answer like that :)

But say I got 10 styl 10 melee dmg and 7 melee spd

50 cs specced got 58% dual hit chance

4.1 spd main (malice) and 3.5 spd offhand (crocs)

temp gives +428 hits, +30 af
and all stats caped, all resists decent/capped. Should I then choose crocs over CW or choose CW over crocs and gain a bit better template wich 10 melee spd instead of 7, some more hits, and a tiny bit better resists on the ones that atm are decent?
 

Meradesh

Fledgling Freddie
Joined
Feb 21, 2004
Messages
622
Sneakers|Matriarch said:
Hmm, I hate answer like that :)

But say I got 10 styl 10 melee dmg and 7 melee spd

50 cs specced got 58% dual hit chance

4.1 spd main (malice) and 3.5 spd offhand (crocs)

temp gives +428 hits, +30 af
and all stats caped, all resists decent/capped. Should I then choose crocs over CW or choose CW over crocs and gain a bit better template wich 10 melee spd instead of 7, some more hits, and a tiny bit better resists on the ones that atm are decent?

-4'1 mainhand / 4'0 offhand :
Quickness:250
Haste:20%
ToA haste:10%

Normal swing:1'83024 s
After dual swing:1'8079 s
Normal swing (Malice debuffed):2'2022 s
After dual swing (Malice debuffed): 2'1753 s
Damage style boost after dual swing:1'2 %
Damage style boost over time (58% dual hit chance) :0'7 %

-4'1 mainhand / 3'4 offhand :
Quickness:250
Haste:20%
ToA haste:7%

Normal swing:1'8912 s
After dual swing:1'7298 s
Normal swing (Malice debuffed):2'27556 s
After dual swing (Malice debuffed): 2'0813 s
Damage style boost after dual swing: 9'3%
Damage style boost over time (58% dual hit chance) : 5'4%

-4'1 mainhand / 2'5 offhand:
Quickness:250
Haste:20%
ToA haste: 8% (SoM, MS)

Normal swing:1'8709 s
After dual swing:1'5056 s
Normal swing (Malice debuffed):2'2511 s
After dual swing (Malice debuffed): 1'8119 s
Damage style boost after dual swing: 24'3%
Damage style boost over time (58% dual hit chance) : 14'1%

Damage style boost (DW mechanic) is applied after any ToA dmg style % calculation.

This one was a numeric answer, hope it helps you Sneakers.
 
Joined
Dec 31, 2003
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I'm not good with nummbers Mera but words.

But as far as i can see using a 3.5 spd croc would be superior to a 4.0 CW when u take into account the increased dmg over time and the qu debuff vs 10% slash resist debuff?

Or ;o?
 

Meradesh

Fledgling Freddie
Joined
Feb 21, 2004
Messages
622
Matriarch|Sneakers said:
I'm not good with nummbers Mera but words.

But as far as i can see using a 3.5 spd croc would be superior to a 4.0 CW when u take into account the increased dmg over time and the qu debuff vs 10% slash resist debuff?

Or ;o?
I, as a ranger use a CW offhand but as a ns would go for CTD instead of CW
 

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