Politics Should the UK remain a member of the EU?

Should the UK remain a member of the EU?

  • Yes

    Votes: 27 73.0%
  • No

    Votes: 10 27.0%

  • Total voters
    37

old.user4556

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I felt this needed a thread.

Let's have a discussion / argument / flame war. All opinions welcome, as long as they're correct / well educated. Golfers not welcome, shoes and grass cutters are.

I'll start, I believe we should stay in the EU.
 

dysfunction

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I agree we should stay in the EU.
It just makes sense to be involved from within the EU rather than an outsider.
 

Gumbo

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The question can't be answered until we know what, if any, concessions Cameron has managed to secure. Except it probably can because I can't see us leaving. It pains me, because I don't want to be part of a federalised Europe, but there is a certain inevitability about it. I imagine a Grexit and the cascade that might follow would change the whole picture though, not to mention what shenanigans Putin gets up to between now and 2017.
That turned into a stream of consciousness type without thinking it through before I started.

Basically, ask me on the eve of the poll.
 

Scouse

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Yes. Increasingly federalised Europe.

Lets get it done with quickly and move on to one world government at breakneck speed please.

It's going to happen sooner or later. So bring on the endgame.

:)
 

caLLous

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I've spoken to people who think there will be a massive majority no vote (because Murdoch wants us out of the EU) but I'm not sure it will turn out like that. I don't see Cameron getting any worthwhile concessions but, when presented with all of the facts, it seems like madness to want out. Even more so if Europe then pushes on with TTIP - the UK will be properly out in the cold.
 

DaGaffer

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The question can't be answered until we know what, if any, concessions Cameron has managed to secure. Except it probably can because I can't see us leaving. It pains me, because I don't want to be part of a federalised Europe, but there is a certain inevitability about it. I imagine a Grexit and the cascade that might follow would change the whole picture though, not to mention what shenanigans Putin gets up to between now and 2017.
That turned into a stream of consciousness type without thinking it through before I started.

Basically, ask me on the eve of the poll.

He'll get nothing substantial; the problem is some of the key things he wants (around labour movement especially) cut across the whole point of the EU in the first place, and, are flat out bad ideas anyway*. As for any structural reforms; by 2017? With the whole Greek thing going on? No chance. So thinking about yes/no needs to be on the basis of the EU as it is now, not the moonbeams and fairies version Cameron wants. So for me personally, I'll be voting to stay in. UK leaving would be a right pita from a personal perspective, but even if it wasn't, I'd still vote to stay in.

*If Cameron wants to make the UK a less attractive place for EU migrants, there are laws in his own control to do that, but British people might be less than thrilled with the results.
 

Raven

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Yes, more power to Europe but massive improvements to the way its run. It needs to become far more democratic.
 

old.Tohtori

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Yes. Increasingly federalised Europe.

Lets get it done with quickly and move on to one world government at breakneck speed please.

It's going to happen sooner or later. So bring on the endgame.

:)

This.
 

Tom

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I don't know. It's a hugely complex subject that requires expertise on many levels. I don't feel qualified to answer so I'd rather leave it to the politicians.
 

Moriath

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At the moment i would vote no. I do t believe it would be a blocker that its made out to be on trade and we would be able to negotiate our own deals with china etc rather than supporting the less countries in europe.

The 14 billion or more that we pay into the eu club could be better spent at home.

Also the human rights laws need changing so that prisoners in our jails cant use them to minimise their sentences. Like they are trying to do with life means life.

I would prefer a uk justice system and not to have it over ruled by brussels if people appeal there.

If those things came in the concessions i would vote yes.
 

Moriath

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I don't know. It's a hugely complex subject that requires expertise on many levels. I don't feel qualified to answer so I'd rather leave it to the politicians.
But we are being required to answer in 2017.
 

DaGaffer

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At the moment i would vote no. I do t believe it would be a blocker that its made out to be on trade and we would be able to negotiate our own deals with china etc rather than supporting the less countries in europe.

All raises cost and the likes of China don't actually agree. They've already said that by definition a standalone UK would be a lower priority for them. Which thinking about it logically, of course it would. Plus, UK trade is still dominated by trade with the EU anyway.

The 14 billion or more that we pay into the eu club could be better spent at home.

On what? Seriously. 14bn in to get 215bn back? Sounds like money well spent to me.

Also the human rights laws need changing so that prisoners in our jails cant use them to minimise their sentences. Like they are trying to do with life means life.

This is the biggest load of Daily Mail nonsense of all. Abuse of the ECHR is a small price to pay for the benefits it brings.

I would prefer a uk justice system and not to have it over ruled by brussels if people appeal there.

Why? Because something, something foreigners? Is the UK justice system objectively better? Is it more democratic? Do you even want a democratic judiciary (seems to cause lots of problems in the US)? Are there any laws brought in by the EU that have made life worse for people in the UK?

If those things came in the concessions i would vote yes.

Well you're not going to get them so I guess you're voting no.
 

Tom

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But we are being required to answer in 2017.

Depending on the question, I may or may not vote. A referendum can be a useful device but if we asked the UK public to vote on—for instance—if fuel duty should be abolished, the result would be obvious. And wrong.
 

Scouse

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Only if people choose to vote, it is not mandatory.
Aye. And quite rightly so.

It's not as if they'll put a 'I don't feel entirely qualified' option down...
 

Zarjazz

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As far as I can tell Cameron only agreed to have a Referendum because they were worried about UKIP in the General Election. Now I bet he's seriously regretting it as they'll have to spend the next few years wasting time arguing with a vocal minority when it's almost certainly going to be a vote to stay in the EU.
 

Raven

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I think more peope want out than specifically want to stay. Both groups are smaller than those that arent bothered.

It could be a case of us leaving the EU with only a small percentage of the population actually wanting out.

The vote needs to be weighted so that we leave only if over 50% of the population want it, rather than 50% of the voters.
 

Wij

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2 things.

The human rights act is nowt to do with the EU. It comes from the ECHR which is a separate institution. We could leave the EU and still keep the human rights act.

Secondly, the EU hasn't actually negotiated free trade agreements with China and India, the two biggest growth markets in the world. If we left the EU we could negotiate them much more quickly ourselves (without 26 partners with vested interests to worry about) which would benefit our economy. The EU won't be the largest market in the world for long, its percentage is declining year on year. Anyway, the EU would set us up a free trade agreement pronto as its in their interest as well as ours.

Currently undecided but playing devil's advocate...
 

Bodhi

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Would like to see a bit more information, preferably from an unbiased source (like that's ever going to happen), but currently my gut instinct is a No. Great idea in principle, but the current implementation is undemocratic, bureaucratic and completely unaccountable. Perhaps if the EU managed to get their accounts through an independent auditor once in a while, I may change my opinion. However in it's current guise, I'm struggling to see too many advantages to it.

Plus if we were to leave, I'm pretty sure trade agreements would be set up pretty sharpish, otherwise the Germans are going to have to find someone else to take all their cars.
 

old.user4556

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otherwise the Germans are going to have to find someone else to take all their cars.

China is VW's largest market. They've also opened a factory there to produce competitive cheap shite.
 

DaGaffer

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2 things.

The human rights act is nowt to do with the EU. It comes from the ECHR which is a separate institution. We could leave the EU and still keep the human rights act.

Secondly, the EU hasn't actually negotiated free trade agreements with China and India, the two biggest growth markets in the world. If we left the EU we could negotiate them much more quickly ourselves (without 26 partners with vested interests to worry about) which would benefit our economy. The EU won't be the largest market in the world for long, its percentage is declining year on year. Anyway, the EU would set us up a free trade agreement pronto as its in their interest as well as ours.

Currently undecided but playing devil's advocate...

First, I was responding to Moriath's comment about the Human Rights Act but yes, its not an EU thing.

Second, the EU and China have been negotiating on a trade agreement since 2013. The fact that its not there yet isn't remotely surprising (look at most bilateral or worse, multilateral agreements, they take years to negotiate). Maybe the UK could do it faster, but I really doubt they could do it better, and in ways that favoured the British people. Look at the people in charge in the UK. They'd probably just sell you all into slavery.

Personally I think there are two really big issues that UKians, and the English in particular need to get their heads around:

1. You're not that big a deal. Europe will carry on without you, and the UK has been punching above its weight since the 70s/80s largely because its the been the de facto military wing of the EU. Take the EU away and the UK is just a beligerant little Island with no empire.

2. The UK has turned itself into a financial services economy, and once again, is the de facto trading centre for the EU. Take that away and the City will suffer because why wouldn't it? Frankfurt has wanted the job for decades, and it would happen. This is probably the biggest single economic risk.

3. The UK itself would break apart. There's absolutely no doubt the Scots would demand another independence referendum, they'd get it, and the SNP would win. There would also be carnage in NI if border fences suddenly appear at Newry.

The reality of the EU is that it has almost no negative material effects on people's lives in the UK, and a bunch of positive ones they don't see or think about. Until they're gone.
 

Gwadien

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Hmm.

I don't really care to be honest, I feel that things aren't too bad so I'm happy to stick with the status quo.

I feel the only reason that we should leave is to get more power to the UK, not for the immigrant stuff, (which is why the vast majority of people would vote no.) I feel like (as per usual) both arguments have been blow out of proportion and are just now tools of hate-saying rather than realism, but in reality, we have no true idea how other countries will respond to a 'Europe-less' UK - Individuals and businesses have argued each way, but I think these businesses would trade with a 'Europe-less' UK anyway, they're just doom saying because staying in Europe benefits them.

So I'll be voting Yes.
 

TdC

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The reality of the EU is that it has almost no negative material effects on people's lives in the UK, and a bunch of positive ones they don't see or think about. Until they're gone.

no nay-sayer would ever iterate through the positive things though. it's far easier shouting "THEM BURSSLES BUROKARTS TAX OUR FINE BRITISH MILK!!!11211eleven" than following up with "...to pay for our roads!"*




*note: dodgy EU taxes may not actually pay for UK road building
 

Bodhi

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no nay-sayer would ever iterate through the positive things though. it's far easier shouting "THEM BURSSLES BUROKARTS TAX OUR FINE BRITISH MILK!!!11211eleven" than following up with "...to pay for our roads!"*




*note: dodgy EU taxes may not actually pay for UK road building

Funnily enough, the main other country I visit where I hear a lot of anti-EU rhetoric is Holland. Mainly seems to be due to the ridiculous amount of red tape being in the EU produces, not sure if there are other factors at work there too.
 

TdC

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living here I basically take the EU as a given. the Dutch are too much of a "middle-man" trade nation to *ever* do anything to compromise the position they have. they will moan and winge and then get spit-roasted like they always do.
 

Job

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Beligerant little Island with no empire, bit harsh, but I appreciate the honesty, and there lays the problem, we actually all hate each other and tbat is no way forward for a federal Europe, European wide tax?...go fuk yourself...Euro army...not a fat chance, share military hardware? on yer bike.
Everytime we tried to do anything, the squabbling and translations and jealousy and historic prejudices would fuk it up, it's bad enough now....European clout my ass, one push and we'd all run in different directions.
I will vote to stay in Europe, just for a front seat in the circus.
 

Wij

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Funnily enough, the main other country I visit where I hear a lot of anti-EU rhetoric is Holland. Mainly seems to be due to the ridiculous amount of red tape being in the EU produces, not sure if there are other factors at work there too.
Holland is not a country.
 

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