free will/determinism

[tris-]

do you believe in free will or determinism? is free will just an illusion? can determinism be applied on all scales of the universe? if free will was how the universe worked, how can we predict things on sub atomic scales?
or is free will just a 'concept' that applys to living organisms with the capacity to think?
maybe determinism and free will can work together. for example, genetics determin how a human will develop but what they do in life is determined by their own thoughts.

my stance
personally i am for determinism and against free will. i think free will is an illusion created by the fact that we have the capacity to think conciously. we believe if we do something, its because we decided at that moment that we will do it.

applying determinism
i dont believe in a creator and i dont think outside of before the universe existed - simply because it isnt possible to know anything. the laws we know only apply to our universe and cannot predict what happened before they came into existance.
i think determinism can apply on any scale from universal, to human, to atomic levels. all the while having the same effect. we can predict how a particle will behave in a future event if we put into a formula things about it. in other words they are governed by a law. there is no reason why our actions cannot be governed by a similar law.
im not saying mystic meg is an expert and tarrot cards work, i think they are bull shit. im talking scientifically, it may become possible in the future to work out the law that governs our actions. we could put into a formula information to give an accurate prediction of what will happen.

emotions, responsibility etc
surely if we can have an emotions about something, we can only believe in free will? how can we have responsibility if we say our actions are already determined?
these are common arguments for free will. we cant take responsibility for our actions if we dont control what we do. i can understand what people mean by this.

day to day life

when i go about my business on a daily basis im taking actions. actions which i think are already determined. in my mind my own internal monologue is not saying "ive just decided to do this". its more a case of looking at my actions from a 3rd person perspective. it is quite difficult to explain, its more like two different states of mind at the same time. im conciously taking in information from the environment, im conciously making actions, at the same time im looking at it from a detached point of view. i believe because i can do this, for me personally ive seen through the illusion of free will.

emotion

just because you dont believe in free will it doesnt mean you cant have an emotion. it doesnt mean you think "oh well, it would of happened anyway so who cares". its a response to something thats happened in your life. it doesnt matter if it was going to happen anyway. the emotion i suppose is part of the 3rd person perspective. an action has happened to you, you see it from a 3rd person perspective and have an emotion in response. like watching a story unfold from the outside, you look into it and respond. this is how i see life.

legal

so what about the legal side then - we need to be responsible for an action for us to be guilty. to make it easier for me to explain you can look at it a bit like the matrix. theres a blip and something needs to be done about it. our morals and laws are there to control these blips. sadly for an individual their path in life means they are going to commit a crime and the law is there to put a stop to it.

so there is my opinnions on why i think determinism is how the universe works and that free will is an illusion.

[Belgerath]

Its friday, my head is already turned to mash just through working all week.

I'll get back to you on Monday.

Is that me choosing to get back to you on monday or is that already predetermined?

If so why bother replying to the thread, because its already predetermined?

I dunno my head is mash :P

[old.Tohtori]

I'm on the fence, really.

Karma, for example, is a valid advocate to pre-determination, in a twisted around kind of way ofcourse. Every action ahs a result that will bite you in the a**, or vice versa.

I believe in the existance of karma, faith, whatever word you wish to use. Though, it doesn't work as miraculously as one might think.

Now then, free will i believe is as possible.

Sure, we can argue that all actions you decide to do, even contemplated things, are pre-determined by previous events etc. But we can't say, that it's not a choice any more then we can say it IS a choice.

Ofcourse action/reaction thing can't be disbuted, but then we come to events that have no reaction.

For example; One single thought, during the day, which is then promptly forgotten.

One could argue that "it does have an effect! Just so miniscule that you don't notice.", but it would be splitting hairs really.

But the one thing,as mentioned on previous thread, that strikes a big pole into the arse of pre-determination theory is that if all is simple reaction to actions, there has to be a start for it all somewhere, and THAT single event, decision, happening, whatever...has to be non-pre-determined as it's the beginning.

[tris-]

the event for my view of determinism is the start of the universe. as its my opinnion the same rule applys from the universe right down to us.

belgereth, the way you are looking it is a common way for people to go wrong in trying to understand the concept of determinism.

[russell]

Ive been waiting for this thread

[Belgerath]

Originally Posted by tris-

the event for my view of determinism is the start of the universe. as its my opinnion the same rule applys from the universe right down to us.

belgereth, the way you are looking it is a common way for people to go wrong in trying to understand the concept of determinism.

Truthfully i haven't put any though into it.

My head is so in the shit going on in work I doubt i would be able to contribute anything constructive today.

[tris-]

id say its not something that you can just suddenly think or understand over night to be fair.
its taken me about 4-5 years to fully understand and develop my own views on the subject.

[old.Tohtori]

Originally Posted by tris-

the event for my view of determinism is the start of the universe. as its my opinnion the same rule applys from the universe right down to us.

And there comes the question; what started it?

If all things are simple continuations of the initial push, what was the initial push? Surely there has to be one for the theory to hold ground.

I think, not perfected the thought process so, bear(roar) with me;

That every action has a re-action, as stated by "pre-defined", but each action is initiated, pushed to motion if you will, by a choice to start the chain.

Same applies to stopping a chain without giving an action a re-action.

[tris-]

i dont know. as i said i dont think whats outside of the universe because our laws canont apply to it. its impossible to ever know what started the universe off for that same reason.
i dont think you need to know what started the universe to say that current events are determined. for example -

youre stood on your own in a room in complete darkness. at the same time; lights come on and a ball is bouncing around the room.
you dont need to know how the ball go into there to know that a)its there and b)the way it bounces is determined by what ever put it in there and the manner in which it was put there.

[old.Tohtori]

You're missing the point.

If all is determined, there has to be an initial start to it all, and as such, all things can't be determined as a pre-determined action can't start the whole chain of pre-determination.

You could say that at current state, things have gone so far along the chain that things have become possible to pre-determine. But one can't say in ultimatum.

"youre stood on your own in a room in complete darkness. at the same time; lights come on and a ball is bouncing around the room.
you dont need to know how the ball go into there to know that a)its there and b)the way it bounces is determined by what ever put it in there and the manner in which it was put there."

But that doesn't prove at all that it's pre-determined. Ofcourse actions, such as "ball being set to motion", has a re-action "ball is in motion", but the reason why the ball was initially set to motion, isn't pre-determined.

To put it in simple terms; simply saying "because things are like this" isn't a valid argument for your theory.

[Belgerath]

One thing we can be sure off though!

If your all alone in a dark room chances are you should of stayed there if your thinking about this :P

[tris-]

i dont understand why the initial beginning of the universe needs to be determined, for subsequent events to be determined.
i believe in the big bang and i believe at that moment everything then on was determined by the laws it created.
how the big bang happend or what started it cant be taken into consideration when talking about the laws of the universe.
this is actually stephen hawking's views on it, i just agree with him.
as far as we are concerned, nothing existed untill the moment of the big bang. so our laws cannot apply to anything outside ofit.

Originally Posted by old.Tohtori

To put it in simple terms; simply saying "because things are like this" isn't a valid argument for your theory.

i dont believe i said that.

maybe we are looking at this differently. im not just talking about a human level. im talking about applying theories of the universe to all scales.

[Overdriven]

Originally Posted by old.Tohtori

For example; One single thought, during the day, which is then promptly forgotten.

Have you ever had that, then have that issue bite? Several times for me. Allways think something, forget it, then have it come up sooner or later and I end up remembering what it was.

Not exactly pre-determination, but is pretty bizzare.

[Chronictank]

i believe everything is pre-determined, but i also believe we have free will

It may already be decided what happens, but you are the one that made the decision in that instance along the time line. Surely if this is the case (as i believe it is) free will is not and illusion at all because in that instance of time you are making the decision regardless whether it was made already?

As such you are accountable for that decision, regardless if it has been pre-destined to happen that way, i have never really understood this argument that if it is pre-determined then you aren't accountable because when all is said and done it was still your decisions which lead to the event

edit: i may very well have read what you wrote wrong as i am reading it quickly, but are you suggesting we aren't presented with choices because the decision has already been made? as such you arent accountable?
But then who made the decision on your behalf?

[old.Tohtori]

Originally Posted by tris-